Lucy
 

Something is wrong with Lucy. The first time it happened - last week - I thought I was being paranoid. Looking for symptoms . . due to her MVD. I had accidentally given her some of Ringo's canned beef instead of her canned Lamb; realized it too late; and then fretted about it.

Later that evening, she came into my room with a glazed look in her eyes and her back legs gave out - just for a second. I carried her downstairs and the minute I sat her down - she was bouncing around with a toy. So I thought I must have been imagining things.

Tonight, we were walking a trail and about halfway through; she stopped for a second and was shaking. I thought she was scared so I picked her up and carried her. When I put her down - she laid down on the trail for a second and could not get up. It was like her back legs didn't want to work. 2 seconds later - she was fine. Pulling and tugging at the leash to go. She walked the rest of the way home and is now out running the yard with Ringo.

I have a call into her vet. Any ideas? Have I gotten complacent and giving her too much protein? But it was at least 2 hours after she ate. She ate canned Wellness turkey on top of her Wellness dry food which is a fairly low protein food. Her last BAT was only mildly elevated - her vet said she was fine and just don't overload her protein. Oh, and I have been putting a little milk thistle on her dinner.

I'm worried sick and off to search threads and worry myself sicker.

Sorry I'm rambling.

What were the BAT results?
Is the vet sure it is MVD?
How was it diagnosed? Biopsy?
All other neuro issues ruled out?
Why was BAT done? Symptoms?

Here's one of my old posts that goes over her background; her last BAT was in Feb.

Her pre was less than 5 (previously 51) and her post-feeding test result was 35 (previously 41).

Her vet does not think that she needs to go to Ohio State for the scintography. He thinks she has mild MVD with no symptoms at this time.

He recommends that we just keep doing what we are doing - which is basically nothing since she has no symptoms. She is still on her Purina Puppy Chow (I know) - mixed with some lower protein Wellness that I discovered. All protein treats have been discontinued - which I did on my own after reading on here. Apple and Cheerios instead.

He does not recommend any supplements at this time.

He says he is comfortable doing her spay and has other liver dogs that he follows.

I'm ok with everything that he said except that he won't give me the prescription food at this time. Also, I think she should take [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]milk [COLOR=green !important]thistle[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] . . but perhaps I can get this on my own at a health food store???

Dwerten, I know I saw a thread that mention the specific anesthesia that should be used for liver dogs. I'll try to find it and make sure that is what he uses when he does her spay.

If anyone has any thoughts let me know. Right now, Lucy is fine with no symptoms.

Refresher - she had a sibling PTS as a baby for liver shunt. Lucy's puppy [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]liver [COLOR=green !important]enzymes[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] were normal. We first BAT tested 1 month ago after she had a bad week-end after eating some Alpo that a neighbor had given me.
No symptoms since that time. No more Alpo either.

I just want to do the right thing and perhaps I already am. I'm a little concerned that he won't give me the rx food but he just says she doesn't need that right now. "Be careful what you feed her - but what she's on right now appears to be fine."

Thanks for your thoughts. I love my little girl; she is so sweet and I want to have her for a long, long time.

What was the bad week on the Alpo? What symptoms?

The thing about vet calling it MVD (and so many of them do...maybe not wrong), is that it can only be diagnosed with biopsy, so that is just an educated guess.

With numbers that low, it could be MVD or something else altogether. But that doesn't mean there isn't something else going on too. Maybe another neuro issue? But it seems that this happened after Alpo, and then after beef, and then after Wellness turkey? If these weird episodes do happen only related to food, then I'd have to suspect it's the liver. In that case, if she does get these types of symptoms from moderate to high protein, then more restrictions will be necessary. Not saying an rx diet... And if it is the liver doing this with a bit of a protein increase, then I would absolutely have her on supplements. I'd want to protect the liver as much as possible. And things like SAMe will not hurt her.

Since the littermate had LS, I can only tell you what I would do. And at the vet least, that would be supplements. Ellie is asymptomatic for the most part and I still supplement.

Well, thanks for connecting those dots for me. Yes, it was after the Alpo, the Beef, and tonight the Turkey. So . . . makes sense.

The alpo symptoms were the worst - back in January. A well meaning neighbor brought me over a can and I put some on her food. She acted strange all week-end; her vet diagnosed gas; but when she continued with lethargy and hiding from us; he said that is not normal puppy behavior and decided to BAT due to her genetic history.

Numbers were slightly elevated; we waited 30 days and re-tested and got the fairly low numbers I posted.

I guess eliminate the turkey? She absolutely will not eat her dry food; I give her carrots in the morning and was giving her salmon in the evening but thought - well turkey is white meat . . should be ok. She has had it before but now . . . stick to canned fish? Chicken?

What supplements do you give? I got the milk thistle on my own because the vet wouldn't prescribe anything. I think maybe he will this time.

How old is she?
Why the extra meat or fish? Just to get her to eat?
Have you tried something else? Sweet potato? Yogurt?

I just use Denosyl and would use milk thistle and lactulose if Ellie had more symptoms. Problem getting them without vet's agreement is some of them reallllly don't like when clients do things like that. So you may be better off switching vets/getting a second opinion b/c it would be less of an uphill battle. Not really sure why vet would have a problem with supplements (I can understand the extreme restriction of protein) b/c it really does not hurt anything. Ellie's vet and internist both said it was up to me but there was no reason not to.

Yes, just to get her to eat. It has to mix well with her food or she flat out will not eat the dry food. I need to find a low protein food that she actually likes. Yogurt did not agree with her; but I might try sweet potato. She also loves carrots but she gets those every morning - alternated with green beans.

I'm anxious to see what my Vet has to say. I don't feel I am doing enough to help her liver. I'll cut out the turkey for sure.

Is chicken broth ok? She loves it if I boil chicken - no seasoning - and put a little broth on her food. That's easy enough to do.

She will be one year old in August.

I would not give chicken broth unless you find out these symptoms aren't liver related. It may be in her best interest to go to the more liver friendly proteins all around.

Back legs going out has me concerned neurological. I would have a neurological exam done. I do not know anyone that has had back legs going out in an mvd dog with those low numbers. She needs to be on low protein diet 18%. You may want to do natural balance vegetarian and cook some baked cod and sprinkle a little on top of the food to get her to eat it as that is what i do with demi as she is a picky eater and it works.

If she was just acting spaced out after eating i would be ok with putting it on mvd but the back legs are tied to neurological sign and can be the onset of something neurological related to the spine that run in this breed.

Do not want to scare you but this i would get on quickly and have a neuro consult

Please hold off on vaccinations (one year booster and rabies that is coming up) until you make sure she is healthy for them

This has me concerned also. I don't like the sound of it, especially with those low numbers. Hoping it is just the liver (and it could be, esp. since it's after high protein), but it is something to look into.

Well, that didn't quote right. Her first sentence anyway...

i want you to make sure your vet or neuro rule this out as with what you are describing this is my biggest concern- read the symptoms - the back legs going out is a very big concern as many times this gets misdiagnosed for brain tumor and disc issues in back because legs are going out

Granulomatous Meningoencephalomyelitis (GME)

yeah we are getting a lot of dogs on here recently with legs going out which is tied to gme and so far one has a firm diagnosis of gme now and the other i think does as well. It comes on slowly within a couple months whamo. It sounds like it is coming on with legs going out. I think the protein can be also a factor but not for the legs read the gme info i just posted they get spaced out etc.

I would refrain from walking and stressing out the body until you figure out what is going on

sometimes it can all start within 2 mos of vaccinations as the vaccines do not cause it they are a trigger as gme is an autoimmune disease and it runs in this breed

check out this thread - back legs were going out and spaced out turned out to be blindness

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...very-sick.html

I must be missing something......back legs giving out is a symptom of GME?

Where is this information about vaccines being a trigger for GME?

I really think that this pup needs to go to a specialist if she has not already. There could be so many different things going on and to guess and scare oneself is not a good idea imo. I would not start looking at disastrous diagnoses at this point. Just my thoughts.

read the link yes it is a sign and i was right about the other dog with leg paralysis. My friends dog has GME and her dog had leg paralysis so YES leg paralysis is a sign of this disease. It depends on what area of the spinal chord is being affected.

I will state it AGAIN for you vaccines can be a TRIGGER not a CAUSE

here i will bold it for you from the LINK

Female dogs are slightly more affected than male dogs, and small breed and specifically poodles appear to be more commonly affected.

The location of GME may occur either in the meninges (menigo), brain (encephalo), or the spinal cord (myelitis). It may affect one, two, or all three components of the CNS.
What to Watch For

Clinical signs are variable and reflect the area of the CNS affected. If GME affects the forebrain, clinical signs could involve:

Blindness

Seizures

Altered mental status

Pacing

Circling

Head pressing

Stumbling with a nearly normal gait

If GME affects the hindbrain (brainstem +/- cerebellum), clinical signs may include:


Falling

Rolling

Inability to blink

Facial paralysis

Voice change

Mental depression

Tremors

Spastic gait and broad based stance

Spinal cord involvement of GME may include such signs as:


Fever

Spinal pain

Weakness or paralysis in one, two, or all four legs

If the forebrain is primarily affected, response to immunosuppressive corticosteroids may be prolonged or rarely curative. If the hindbrain or spinal cord is primarily affected, drug therapy is less successful for complete or long-lasting improvement.

The onset of GME is usually acute with a slowly, insidious progression over one to two months

well having an mvd dog and reading everything there is to read about the disease I have yet to see a dog have its legs go out on them but i have sure seen this on GME dogs as my friend had this happen in her dog and also on GME group. It is misdiagnosed like my friends dog for disc issues.

This disease is showing up more and more in yorkies and the vet either misdiagnosis as disc issue or brain tumor like polina who also had paralysis in legs

I thought you were reading up on GME to help Rorie - have you not read this anywhere?

I also stated it needs to be RULED OUT not a diagnosis

I could guess that all dogs with leg paralyisis have GME and be right on one of them. My question is where is it that this is a main symptom of GME? It is not something I am aware of. Since you seem to know so much, all I am asking is for where you found this information.


And I am asking you where you have found that information about vaccines being a TRIGGER.. My understanding is that they do not know triggers and/or causes. So, if I am wrong, I would love to see the research that shows this. :)

Where did I say that? :)

I will be looking forward to hearing what the vet says today. I DO hope Miss Lucy is ok...I will keep her in my thoughts and prayers.

Please try not to worry too much...I know how it feels to have a sick one ... they do feel our stress. Hopefully, it is something simple. :)

it is on this link from a vet websited

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/granulo...gme/page1.aspx

here it is again read the bold lettering

So, are you suggesting that if a dog has a fever which is one symptom, that you should do a MRI and spinal tap to r/o GME?

You just cannot take one symptom out of a list like that and draw conclusions. There is so much more to it than that.

another thing that needs to be ruled out for paralysis is lyme disease so has your dog had any ticks? I believe there is a special blood test they do to rule this out. I think britsters dog jackson had this happen and i can find the link.

#83 on this link

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...very-sick.html

no but if the dog has paralysis then a neuro needs to be checking this dog out after xrays are done and blood work to rule out lyme disease as this is NOT mvd related in my opinion. I have never seen a dog where their legs went out with MVD. I guess this could be the first like the brain tumor i have never read about that turned out to be GME

Oh God - GME has a survival rate of less than twelve months! So I surely hope it is not that.

Our walk was a long one in the woods; found a tick on myself when I got home - but checked the dogs good and found none on them.

Lucy is very quiet today; hoping it's the heat . . very hot outside. Another call into the Vet this morning; I hope they can get me in today. Waiting on callback. I went over all the symptoms.

Liver related or not - I'm def going to switch her to a vegetarian food. I've been playing with fire trying to get her to eat . . . and probably got just a little too comfortable with it because she has done so well - playing, running, jumping, eating; all the things a sweet little girl should be doing.

Thanks for your advice guys; I will let you know what the Vet recommends. I will ask him about possible neurological issues and GME?

if you had a tick then i would ask about lyme. He needs to know about paralysis behavior for sure.

GME is not a death sentence they can go into remission but the earlier it is caught the better outcome for dog. It may not be this but just want you to know all possible reasons for paralysis in this breed. The xray will rule out disc issues

can you home cook? If so you may want to make dr dodds liver cleansing diet and i can get you that if you would like. It is cod and cod you can get at costco in frozen section. Do not get the sam's club one as just found out it is from CHINA :(

still trying to find britsers thread about lyme- we do not have deer ticks here so i do not know alot about it but do know it can cause paralysis

I can home cook - at least for a while until new job starts. Willing to try anything at this point to improve her liver.

ok i will pm you dr dodds liver cleansing diet as many use this for dogs that have mvd and liver disease and if yours is picky she may want to eat home cooked. when you go back to work you can freeze the vegetable portion and then bake cod to make it easier.

Do you want to try the vegetarian natural balance with cod first or homecook? Sometimes they are picky just because the food makes them feel sick. My demi on the other hand is just a princess lollll

Are you on the liver shunt mvd groups on yahoogroups.com? Personally i just feed dee dee 18% protein purina ha a hydrolized soy diet as low in protein and fat. Alot of dogs will not eat that food though :( so if you have a picky one then it may not work. Homecooking is better anyway if balanced. I do not supplement at all for her liver as her bats were low the last time after 3 being done and were almost normal on the low protein diet alone and she has so many other issues with allergies adding any supplements may just set her allergies off :(