I think the first thing is to get the pup off the food that is being fed now. Second, get to a vet.
Then, the vet can suggest the elimation diet...or testing...whatever.
Just my thoughts since this person is a bit overwhelmed now. I was NOT suggesting that food as an elimation diet! I was suggesting it since the person has been buying food that clearly was not too great ... and my suggestion was an easy one FOR NOW which is what she asked for.

she needs a dermatologist since the two vets thus far have failed her for sure :(

I said that! So, in the latest thread, I said vet....I MEANT dermatologist VET...I thought that was understood.

OP, I'm sorry about your girl. :(

I'm breaking this down into section so it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming.

Testing:
Bloodwork, including thyroid testing, should have been done a long time ago. Two years out with no diagnosis AND no vet insisting on some type of bloodwork is pretty sad.
A skin scraping with cytology should have been one of the first or the first thing done. some things, including mites, are visable on cytology. Even if mites were not seen (hard to catch with skin scraping), some vets will treat for them anyway just in case (with ivermectin or selamectin).

Allergies:
I'm not a vet, so I can't diagnose; but it is my opinion that while there may (r may not) be some allergy involvement, there is something more going on. And it is also my opinion that steroids should have help more than what they did if this was purely allergy related (food or environmental) unless it was a very low dose. Atopica, while I highly doubt it will do much good, could have been given with antiemetics for the first week or two.

Food:
If food allergies are still a concern, an elimination diet will have to be done. As Ann said, chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb will need to be avoided. Also add goat and pork to the list as these are common ingredients in kibbles, so they are not novel to a large number of dogs. It may be best to go grain free during this time. Sweet potato may work well. However, I would still say there is more to this than an allergy (imo). Also, it looks like the vet put her on an rx diet to stop the formation of bladder stones. If other foods are given with an rx diet, it could make the rx diet less effective. In this case, a vet (preferably a derm or internist) needs to decide what is more important: an allergy elimination diet or a diet to stop stone formation. It is also possible that a diet exists or could be created to control both issues at once. For this, you will likely need to talk to a veterinary nutritionist. Sorting this all out is really not something that can wait. They are trained to be able to figure these types of things out. Some table foods, including ham, can be very harmful to dogs and cause some very serious health problems. Please be very careful about what snacks are given.

as stated above, but I still think a quick change of food is in order ... she had asked for that....

THEN take the time to work with the vet and work with finding the right food.

That was ALL I was saying. Not needing a critique of the food I give my pups and all of its ingredients. I have no reason to justify it. I know the health of my pups and know what works well for them...and I have many and have had many. I will bet I have less digestive problems than many.

I simply was trying to help with a quick change. I was not suggesting it forever...because I have long learned that people are so emotional about foods.

NOT trying to play nutritionist. I don't buy a lot of what people feed their pups anyway...to each his own. That is why I pretty much stay out of health and diet forum.

:thumbup: Very nicely done! Clear and easy to read...with sections and punctuation. Very easy to follow!

I really hope the op can get some relief for this pup soon!

I totally agree, as I am going through all of this right now. Miracle gets pumpkin and vension, that's it. She had her second visit to the derm doc yesterday. She is done with the steroids but is still on simplacef and was given anouther round of antibiotics for the staph infection she had, this will be her last two weeks. However, we will have to see how it goes from here, as we found another flea on her. For whatever reason, she is the only one that has them and ONE keeps popping up every couple of months. I know the saying where there is one, there are more, however we NEVER find anymore, so this could just be a flea allergy (hoping it is that simple), she was given medicine that kills them in 15 mins., he called it birth control for fleas. One she will take for the month along with my other babies and the other one she will get one pill every other day. So as of right now we are concentrating on a flea allergy, and he did say I could feed her whatever I wanted but I'm going to stick with venison and pumpkin at least for a little while longer.

This is not a quick and cheap process as I am already in over $1,000, but I will do whatever I can to help my baby feel better.

food allergy cannot be treated by steroids or atopica those are strictly for environmental allergies not food that is how they determine if food or environmental is if steroids stop the itching usually not food related and why an elimination is the first step AFTER skin scrapings and ruling out hypothyroid.

Natural balance vegetarian is an appropriate diet for both allergies as well as stones so if stones are an issue you may want to do the same elimination diet we did with dee dee which was pinto beans and sweet potato instead of white potato as pinto beans are a protein and they are lower protein than any other protein

no it is not a quick process at all and sadly there is no real cure just keeping dog comfortable and eliminating as many things as you can to keep them comfortable and on as little drugs as possible.

The reason your dog has fleas and others do not is because fleas gravatate to dogs with poor immune systems and i saw it first hand with dd as they used revolution to rule out scabies when this all first started and i took her and my other two to a friends by the beach - got home and dex and demi had 3 or 4 fleas and dee dee was covered. I was furious called the mfg of revolution and said wth is going on she has flea protection my other two do not have hardly any and she is the only one with flea protection and they said it does not keep them off the dog only kills the cycle so i said we are DONE with flea protection then as the flea will still bite her and cause allergic reaction so why put a chemical on her already sensitive skin - joke no way. We do not have a big flea problem by us which is good as that whole incident confirmed to me what holistic vets have said is a dog with a poor immune system will get fleas where as dogs with a strong immune system rarely does.

The flea protection the vet gave your dog sounds like CAPSTAR.

So glad you are finally getting some answers with her ;)

the problem here is she had a vet that was treating the symptoms not getting to the bottom of the cause and throwing periodic steroids into the dog which is the worst thing you can do bc if you wean a dog off steroids or pull them off immediately the dog will get ten times worse as the body will react more when steroids stop as my dad had rosasea and came off steroids by doctor and his skin was 10xs worse after going off steroids at first then it calmed down but this same thing will happen to a dog on steroids coming off of it and on it all the time and why weaning is critical and figuring out what is going on is critical so the pictures look like a secondary bacteria infection from itching so the dog needs relief with steroids, antibiotics for that infection and then they need to do the food elimination diet as the diet this dog has been eating could very well be the first critical piece of the puzzle but the steroids are not going to stop this dog from itching if the food is the culprit which is why the dog keeps itching on steroids

We have been down the allergy road as well. Tons of money spent on unreliable food allergy testing and environmental allergy testing only gave us useless and unreliable information. When I took Daisy to a veterinary dermatologist, I started getting answers. Fortunately, our dog is able to stay on Neoral (atopica) and do very well without even having to go to maximum dose.

My suggestion is to heed the advice you are hearing - get to a dermatologist. He or she will recommend a diet and any medications that may be used. In our case, I spent years changing this protein or that carbohydrate and going nuts to be honest -- only to learn that food allergy testing in dogs is unreliable and basically useless. It's been a couple of years for us so maybe the testing has changed but I'd avoid doing anything more until you have an expert guiding the process.

Good luck!

:thumbup::thumbup:

And, yes the testing for food allergies is still unreliable. My vet does not even recommend it. Only environmental. Food allergies are easy to find with an elimination diet anyway.

The same reason Atopica and Steroids cannot stop food allergies is the same reason blood cannot determine food allergies on an allergy test and why an elimination diet is done to determine it as blood can only determine environmental allergies.

you are so lucky yours can tolerate the atopica my dd started throwing it up after a year and even that year we had to still give temarilp with it :(

Yep Blood cannot determine food allergies only elimination diet and 10% of allergies are food anyway HOWEVER a dog with allergies should always be on a minimal ingredient diet as to not over tax the system as allergents can build up in the body and trigger itching

An elimination diet instead of trying to maintain on steroids is, without a doubt, the best way to go if possible, but that doesn't mean steroids don't ever work in this case. Cyclosporine is just for environmental.

Food Allergies & Food Intolerance in Dogs
WSAVA 2001 - Update on Food Allergy in the Dog and Cat

my bean developed severe itching and scratching all of the sudden , it turned out to be the scented detergent and dryer sheets i washed and dryed her bedding in, clothes and towels.plus my bedding clothes etc... she was fine for 4 years and then all of the sudden she became allergic. have since switched everything over to non scented and green friendly. no problems since.

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* Steroids offer anti-inflammatory benefits - no matter the inflammation's / allergy's source (any allergy causes an inflammatory response); while steroids also suppress the immune system, they are powerful anti-inflammatory agents, for all types/sources of inflammation

* Atopica (cyclosporine), I agree, offers benefits just for enviro - as it is an immunosuppressant (and not an anti-inflamm.)

* "Testing for Food Allergies" refers to an elimination diet, only. For an elimination diet to be effective, it should not contain any previously fed ingredients.

* "Testing for Enviro/Seasonal Allergies" refers to blood testing/allergy testing - which may be worthwhile if the dog is young, and IF you plan on doing the hyposensitization shots (btw, a dog can be on Atopica before/during allergy testing, but *must* be off any steroids 2-6 wks, depending on steroid, before testing)

* Just to reiterate: 10-15% of allergies are due to food, the rest are due to enviro

Amazon.com: The Allergy Solution for Dogs:...
in this book written by dvm it states if a dog still itches while on steroids then food is the culprit as I agree the steroids will reduce the inflamation but it will not stop the allergent from food and why blood cannot determine food allergy same reason. This is how they determine many times it is food not environmental as they give the dog steroids and if they stop itching it is environmental if the dog does not stop itching it is food related.

both cyclosporine and steroids are immune suppressant drugs as they are using atopica in ibd dogs off label. The difference in the drugs is steroids affects the adrenals and atopica does not.

here is some good info from another book i bought from this author he compiled info from dermatologists from all over

Skin and Allergy Problems in Dogs

here is the book I have from ebay

Guide to Skin and Haircoat Problems in Dogs - eBay (item 380205514069 end time Mar-11-10 18:47:04 PST)

here is another one i have

Skin Diseases of Dogs and Cats: A Guide for Pet Owners - eBay (item 180445631320 end time Mar-14-10 16:55:50 PDT)

another one i have

Small Animal Dermatology Muller & Kirk's - eBay (item 190377353676 end time Mar-09-10 11:20:24 PST)

i have a passion for this topic since my dd has bad allergies I try to learn as much as i can

It may be fine to simply change food for twelve weeks and see what happens, but in some cases, dogs are so itchy that it would be wrong to not give steroids concurrently. They can provide relief for a lot of dogs. No relief at all or just a little bit could mean food allergies, but major relief does not rule them out.

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Two TOTALLY different types of drugs. Thank you for clarifying that!! :)

I need to use numbers, bc I can get wordy :p.

1) The statement in red could really confuse people, medically. In my understanding, there really is NO "cure" for allergies - so using the phrase "stop the allergent" (as it relates to medications etc) might be something to re-consider. The only way to treat allergies is to eliminate the source (if food, for example) or minimize exposure, or treat symptoms (steroids, atopica, anti-histamines), or desensitize (through shots).

The allergy is still there - you can't "stop" it (per se). That said, just like an allergy can suddenly start in a body, in can also suddenly go away - this does not mean you "stopped" it, or cured it - it only means the immune system is no longer allergic to this particular element.

2) As for the statement in blue, I'll mention that the 3 Vet Dermatologists at the practice I use for my dogs would disagree w/ this statement.

3) In purple :D...: the differences go far beyond this, in my opinion. While steroids are indeed synthesized in the adrenals, the actual *cells* upon which they have action (ie, "affects"), goes much beyond the adrenal glands. And, like I said earlier, steroids are very power anti-inflam agents, in addition to being immunosuppressants - which are two very different therapeutic uses :).

:thumbup: This is what the Derms with whom I've worked would state...and this is also what I believe to be true based on my own readings. Of course, that doesn't mean it's correct - just stating my experiences here :p.

{My apologies to the OP -who hasn't even been back lately btw- if this thread seems to have turned in to a debate. Please take what you can from the thread, and know that no one here is a Vet Derm - we all are writing w/ the best intentions to help, from our own experiences. I hope you get in touch w/ your own Vet Derm, as they are usually just phenomenal :)}

Both drugs atopica and steroids have their concerns neither is without risk as they are tying cyclosporine now to cancer in dogs and steroids affect the entire body but the adrenals leading to cushings are a big concern in long term use of steroids. Any time you take a drug you have a risk of other health issues but both of these drugs suppress the immune system.

why can blood not determine food allergy and only environmental?

I am aware there is no cure for allergies as I have stated many times you only are trying to keep the dog comfortable after almost $10,000 i would have found a cure for it i think as i tried it all and my dog still has issues and will for the rest of her life. All from inbreeding and vaccinations I believe.

Well i guess we will have to agree to disagree about the steroids and food allergy as i saw it in my dog she is on steroids and when she gets a food that she is allergic to the steroids do not stop the itching so seeing it with my own eyes I believe this to be true and it is written in the book allergy solution for dogs by a vet that specializes as well in allergies. I am also on his yahoo group.

in number 1) it will not stop the allergent from affecting the dog.

and yes the allergent can stop due to desensitization or sometimes get worse from desensitization and why i opted not to do those shots as it sometimes can make a dog worse. Also many dogs can eat a food for years and develop an allergent to it as well. Desensitization from local raw honey is another way to desensitize a dog or human to the local pollens in the area.

I think there is a lot of valuable information here for the op and we do not all have to agree as this subject is very complex and those of us that have dealt with it first hand for years will all tell you that it is not an easy fix at all it is trial and error and a life long struggle to minimize the drug aspect of it yet keep the dog comfortable.

just to give you an example

DD was pretty managed allergy wise on temarilp every other day so after this whole metacam incident she was a mess vomitted white potato, vomitted sweet potato, vomitted yams so i ran out of options to pill her with so i tried natural balance fish and sweet potato and nb venison and sweet potato both having flaxseed in them well her eyes were rubbed raw so bad i had to put her in a cone, her itching level increased significantly she was a total mess so then I went with organic chicken no relief all the while she is on steroids suppose to stop food allergy ? So now i put her on cod for pilling and within one week the itching is much less i can keep cone off her as she is not rubbing her eyes etc. Now when she was pilled with white potato we did not have these issues as she has never rubbed her face to the point where she rubbed her eyes raw ever never has she had to wear a cone so seeing this first hand convinced me what i read in this book a few years ago. She has been on temarilp for 2 years now. It was getting so bad I called to increase her temarilp yet nothing was stopping this itching while on the allergent foods.

also if this dog is on a chicken diet and on steroids why are the steroids not working?

Again, I think this statement in red is so medically misleading :(! My Wylie has Cushings - and this is an extremely complicated disease, and there is already so much misinformation out there. What you are talking about above is not just "Cushings" - rather, it is Iatrogenic Cushings (which is VERY specific) - a pet has symptoms of Cushings bc exogenous cortisone is being GIVEN, not bc the adrenals are producing it. Iatrogenic Cushings will often resolve once the steroid med can be stopped (if possible) for whatever reason it's being given in the first place.

Because this is how your 1 dog reacted, this does not mean it applies to the general population of dogs....that's what I'm trying to say, what I think others were trying to say, and this is what I've read in the research as well as what the Derms with whom I've consulted said. I think it's great you're sharing your experience about your dog, however, it appeared (to me anyway) that you were making a generalized statement about the way steroids worked. That's all...:)

If Atopica works for 1 dog in the world, should it work for all dogs?
If a steroid works for 1 dog in the world for food allergies, or any allergy, for that matter - should it work for all dogs?

:confused:

A medication will not work for your dog just bc it works for other dogs...but I think you know this, don't you :p?

Steroids may not be working in this case because 1) they just aren't going to work for food allergies in this case, or 2) this dog doesn't have a food allergy at all. Maybe it's a fungal infection or mites or, or, or...


And I have an example from my own dog that proves that they can work for food allergies. Not all ddrugs affect all dogs the same. The same goes for food. I know yours do really well on HA. It was a huge waste of time for mine... as was Z/D Ultra...

here is something else to think about why does a dog have to be off steroids to do skin testing for environmental allergies but not off steroids for a food elimination diet ?

In the link that I put up from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association, it states that if steroids needs to be given concurrently with an elimination diet, the diet needs to be done two weeks longer than the steroids to assess...