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-   General Yorkshire Terrier Discussion (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/)
-   -   I'm getting a dna test done. Then what?? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/262660-im-getting-dna-test-done-then-what.html)

MauiGirl 06-13-2013 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkiemommy1984 (Post 4243126)
Minnie and i just wanted Thank you everyone for all of your kind words and great advice and exterise thru all this. We appreciate everything so much and am thankful I came across this site. She feels very loved by you all. I will keep everyone updated as she continues to grow into an even more amazing dog. :)
Minnie is a little gem, and so lucky to be part of your wonderful family. There is no limit to the amount of love and joy she will bring to you, and you to her, and I wish you all the best forever.

gracielove 06-13-2013 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4242249)
I am not sure I will, although for sure I will bring up Mars to our National Clubs in USA and in Canada.

I think that it would be good to get a breed specific genetic test, from what I have read they are far away from this. Of course for over 30 years or so, we can define a "dog" DNA from a rabbit or a geese.

I am not sure of the science of what they are doing, and how accurate their database is. Remember Garbage in, Garbage out, especially if you are doing some sort of comparative linkage to identify a dog breed, instead of genetic specific tests.

Also none of the major registries such as AKC, UKC, FCI, and CKC recognize this Mars testing protocol as valid for ascertaining a purebred dog status.

So big circle back to Minnie. I do so hope her skin condition heals up. Unfortunately I have no advice there.
Could you tell us what company AKC does recognize for DNA testing? Apparently from your information reputable breeders have been using DNA testing in their operations. Just wondering which company is considered reputable. Someone who may present with a similar situation may need that info in the future.

Verbena 06-13-2013 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4239903)
Good question! I had to go back to the Wisdom Panel website and look for myself. For "related breeds," I see Toy Fox Terrier, Black and Tan English Toy Terrier, Havanese, Pekingese, English Toy Spaniel, and Miniature Pinscher. They don't say how they determined their list of related breeds, but my guess is that it is from similarity in their DNA profile, not necessarily in the history of the development of the Yorkshire Terrier Breed. Here is the page I was looking at: http://www.wisdompanel.com/breed_cou...shire-terrier/
I was looking at what you said. One of the related breeds for Yorkshire Terrier is Biewer. but I had pulled up Biewer it shows related breeds as

Chihuahua

Toy Fox Terrier

Pekingese

Silky Terrier

Pomeranian

Shih Tzu

But no Yorkshire Terrier

Now I think there is a problem right there. Then I clicked it from the Yorkshire Terrier page I got
Toy Fox Terrier

Pug

Brussels Griffon

Black and Tan English Toy Terrier

Miniature Pinscher

Affenpinscher


Hmmmm. There is something really wrong with the related breed part

pstinard 06-13-2013 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbena (Post 4243571)
I was looking at what you said. One of the related breeds for Yorkshire Terrier is Biewer. but I had pulled up Biewer it shows related breeds as

Chihuahua

Toy Fox Terrier

Pekingese

Silky Terrier

Pomeranian

Shih Tzu

But no Yorkshire Terrier

Now I think there is a problem right there. Then I clicked it from the Yorkshire Terrier page I got
Toy Fox Terrier

Pug

Brussels Griffon

Black and Tan English Toy Terrier

Miniature Pinscher

Affenpinscher


Hmmmm. There is something really wrong with the related breed part
The lists on the "related breeds" links are randomly generated and therefore bogus. However, if you look at Minnie's DNA test report, the report compares Minnie's DNA with Yorkshire Terriers, and what MARS claims are the two closest related breeds to the Yorkshire Terrier: The Silky Terrier and the Löwchen.

kjc 06-13-2013 05:40 PM
Sadly, Biewers are not accepted/recognized by the AKC.(yet)

Jacksmom052709 06-13-2013 07:48 PM
DNA test results or not, Minnie is either an extremely poor (emphasis added) example of the Yorkshire Terrier breed or she definitely has something mixed in beyond the 3 generations back. I have seen poorly bred Yorkies before and none of them look like Minnie.

Minnie is cute as a button though and I know she is being well taken care of by Jen. I just hope they can get her skin issues resolved soon. Poor baby. Can't wait to see other pictures of her growing up.

gemy 06-14-2013 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracielove (Post 4243530)
Could you tell us what company AKC does recognize for DNA testing? Apparently from your information reputable breeders have been using DNA testing in their operations. Just wondering which company is considered reputable. Someone who may present with a similar situation may need that info in the future.
The DNA testing utilized by AKC and or CKC, as far as I am aware, is to prove parentage and not breed type.
It is used by breeders if there is an un-certainty of parentage for a particular litter, or to some disputes about parentage.

I think the testing lab information is probably on AKC's website

pstinard 06-14-2013 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4243972)
The DNA testing utilized by AKC and or CKC, as far as I am aware, is to prove parentage and not breed type.
It is used by breeders if there is an un-certainty of parentage for a particular litter, or to some disputes about parentage.

I think the testing lab information is probably on AKC's website
AKC has the DNA samples tested by Neogen. See: American Kennel Club - DNA Frequently Asked Questions

and

Neogen Genomics | Neogen

lynzy420 06-14-2013 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksmom052709 (Post 4243873)
DNA test results or not, Minnie is either an extremely poor (emphasis added) example of the Yorkshire Terrier breed or she definitely has something mixed in beyond the 3 generations back. I have seen poorly bred Yorkies before and none of them look like Minnie.

Minnie is cute as a button though and I know she is being well taken care of by Jen. I just hope they can get her skin issues resolved soon. Poor baby. Can't wait to see other pictures of her growing up.
I agree with you here but will go one step further....It is obvious that Minnie is not completely a Yorkie.

Example in the human world: My mother's dearest friend Rita was married to Bill, they had a daughter Ruthie, Ruthie was very obviously (like Minnie) not a completely caucasion child.....Billy left Rita believing she had cheated on him....my mother convinced him that Rita did not cheat etc., wait for blood tests etc....come to find out a little known family secret was that Great Great Grandma was part African American part White...anyway...Ruthie looks more African American than white but she is beautiful and Rita and Billy are still married today. Noteworthy here is that Ruthie's children have barely a hint of African American, YOU would not know that they had it in their blood upon site. Ruthie you can tell immediately upon site.

My point here is this can happen in dog world too, I am not a fool I can look at Minnie and tell what she is NOT, don't tell me what I CAN clearly see (not a Yorkie), test results or not this pup is clearly mixed with something down the line.

lynzy420 06-14-2013 05:52 AM
Let me immediately clarify my above post, I am using the humans as an example that I've experienced...not to compare dogs to humans...so as not to offend anyone let me also add. I am unbiased and non prejudiced, the only people I dislike are BAD people.

Lil Sis 06-14-2013 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynzy420 (Post 4244046)
I agree with you here but will go one step further....It is obvious that Minnie is not completely a Yorkie.

Example in the human world: My mother's dearest friend Rita was married to Bill, they had a daughter Ruthie, Ruthie was very obviously (like Minnie) not a completely caucasion child.....Billy left Rita believing she had cheated on him....my mother convinced him that Rita did not cheat etc., wait for blood tests etc....come to find out a little known family secret was that Great Great Grandma was part African American part White...anyway...Ruthie looks more African American than white but she is beautiful and Rita and Billy are still married today. Noteworthy here is that Ruthie's children have barely a hint of African American, YOU would not know that they had it in their blood upon site. Ruthie you can tell immediately upon site.

My point here is this can happen in dog world too, I am not a fool I can look at Minnie and tell what she is NOT, don't tell me what I CAN clearly see (not a Yorkie), test results or not this pup is clearly mixed with something down the line.

I understand what you are saying... I was explaining recessive genes to my dd the other day... She was having a hard time understand how two brown eye parents can have a blue eye child but not two blue eye parents a brown eye child.

So.... recessive genes can be carried many generations and will show up only with another recessive gene. My question on your "human" example ... what was the father's gene pool?

lynzy420 06-14-2013 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Sis (Post 4244102)
I understand what you are saying... I was explaining recessive genes to my dd the other day... She was having a hard time understand how two brown eye parents can have a blue eye child but not two blue eye parents a brown eye child.

So.... recessive genes can be carried many generations and will show up only with another recessive gene. My question on your "human" example ... what was the father's gene pool?

btway, Billie was 100% Irish and was definitely the father of Ruthie

yorkietalkjilly 06-14-2013 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Sis (Post 4244102)
I understand what you are saying... I was explaining recessive genes to my dd the other day... She was having a hard time understand how two brown eye parents can have a blue eye child but not two blue eye parents a brown eye child.

So.... recessive genes can be carried many generations and will show up only with another recessive gene. My question on your "human" example ... what was the father's gene pool?
Could I ask a question of the breeders here? I had understood that more than one recessive gene, despite the odds, can show up at once at any time in a lineage to occasionally produce a purebred puppy that isn't typical of the breed and that any gene or genes can mutate at any time, also producing the atypical purebred pup. Are those statements true, however far-fetched the liklihood?

pstinard 06-14-2013 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4244190)
Could I ask a question of the breeders here? I had understood that more than one recessive gene, despite the odds, can show up at once at any time in a lineage to occasionally produce a purebred puppy that isn't typical of the breed and that any gene or genes can mutate at any time, also producing the atypical purebred pup. Are those statements true, however far-fetched the liklihood?
I'm not a breeder, but I'm a geneticist, and it is true. Actually, it's not even that unlikely. There could be bad recessive mutations that have been carried in "good" lines for generations, but never showed up as homozygous in the offspring because they were never bred to another carrier. But when that happens, then you finally see that it was there all the time--this happened with hemophilia in the British and Russian royal families. This goes to show the importance for developing tests for as many problematic alleles ("bad genes") as possible so that if you can't eliminate them entirely, you can at least try not to breed a carrier to another carrier.

Here's a quote from an article on hemophilia that can serve as an example of what can go on in breeding lines:

Although an individual's hemophilia can usually be traced in the ancestry, in about 30% of cases there is no family history of the disorder and the condition is speculated to be the result of spontaneous mutation in an ancestor.

Haemophilia in European royalty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

gemy 06-14-2013 10:07 AM
To Baboon Cristina
 
As the breeder I would hope that you still want to try to get to the bottom of how "your" lines produced such an atypical Yorkie.

DNA parentage test should be done to confirm Minnie's parentage.

Beyond that I hope that you have learnt a whole lot more about the breed, before you dip your toes in again to breed.

Also you should at least gather enough knowledge of the breed to understand if you have an atypical Yorkie pup; and settle things way ahead of time prior to offering for sale a Yorkie pup.

It is never easy and or "cheap" to breed the right way; and that starts with getting a mentor with a great reputation+experience and usually uses one of the three main registries in North America.


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