Vets, Puppy Mills and Pet Stores

[chachi]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Absolutely. All doggies and owners are welcome here. No one here, ever, should be put down for their dog - no matter where it came from or what it is. That's not to say people aren't free to educate about matters arising from pet stores, mixed breeds and whatnot - but not via pinpointing any certain member or their dog bc that's plain hurtful.

I agree and the more I think about it who is anyone to decide what someones buying decision should be. If they ask for advice and ask what kind of breeder to buy from I can give them advice but if they choose to go another way well thats there perogative

[DBlain]

What type of dog I have or anyone has is irrelevant to the topic of this thread, but that is OK with me because I am proud of Lola and I have NO shame in how I acquired her. In fact if given the chance myself and others that I know would purchase a dog from Lola's parents in a heartbeat, but that is not possible now. I posted before that I paid $450.00 but I just dug out the old check stub and it was actually $400.00. I doubt the person that bred her made much money since she was 16 weeks with all her shots except for rabies, she was clean, well fed, free of any parasites, worms, etc. She did not come from a puppy mill or a pet store, I did not buy her off the internet sight unseen and pay thousands or put a deposit on her at 3 weeks old or take her home at 8 weeks old. After having 4 purebreds from show breeders, and each having a quirk or health issue, I knew exactly what I wanted this time and I am happy to have found it. She will turn 2 in Dec. so far she is healthy but like with any other dog health tested or not who knows what the future will bring, I just keep my fingers crossed and keep up with vet visits.

It would be such a perfect world if the only people that bred dogs did it to better the breed and health test them all but that is just not realistic. Can you imagine how few dogs there would be if we could only buy from show breeders. So what do people do that can't find a show breeder to buy from or just want a small dog, where do they go. All I know is if you search hard, do your research, and be prepared for what life throws you, there are viable options between puppy mills and show breeders and Lola is living proof.

Buying purebred or mixes do not cause more dogs in shelters, shelter populations are the result of many things, including cruel people, people unprepared to care for a dog, people buying the wrong kind of dog, people not being able to train a dog, people that go through life changes and so forth. I am glad that rescue groups exist and I bow down to those that choose that route when bringing a pet into their life and even help when I can with some $$$. But as it has been said on YT many times not everyone is cut out to own or foster a rescue pet, plus every pet owner should be allowed to choose what type of dog fits their needs and how they acquire it.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by chachi

I agree and the more I think about it who is anyone to decide what someones buying decision should be. If they ask for advice and ask what kind of breeder to buy from I can give them advice but if they choose to go another way well thats there perogative

This is pretty much verbatim what Admin believes in strongly . Admin has always been of the thought that "who are we to judge and dictate others' decisions" when instead we can just share our beliefs, give advice, and in the end know that each person has a right to do as they believe/want.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by chachi

I bought my two from a byb. I think no matter what your buying experience is in the past you can learn from it and become an advocate for better breeding practices and against puppymills. I believe any good vet should know about puppymills and advice people not to buy from them

Very true. I know I have one dog that came from a BYB, because when I bought her, I didn't know better. This I think is where good public education comes in. Really, that's the only way to stop the over-population and over-breeding problems. When people know better, they do better, but if they don't know not to support mills, brokers, pet stores, and back yard breeders, why wouldn't they be attracted to the cute puppies?

[Rescuemomma]

I'm not judging anyone, but when I see the numbers of both purebred and mix bred dogs dying in the shelters every day here, big and small, and yes, some of them are Yorkies and Yorkie mixes, it breaks my heart to see breeders continually pumping them out. EVERY breeder adds to the problem no matter how good. And no, I don't think it'd be a tragegy if people had to go through a good breeder to get a puppy when shelters are overflowing. Walk through any shelter in Southern California, Vegas, Utah - You'll see ROWS of adoptable small dogs, many under a year old, chi mixes, yorkie mixes, all highly adoptable - And many of them will DIE simply because there's not enough homes for all of them. This is also part of why I only show for fun now and no longer breed, and probably never will. Until there's fewer dogs dying in shelters, I can't feel good about bringing more lives into the world - Now true, a good breeder will keep in contact with who they sell their babies to, and make sure their babies never end up in the shelters, but that dog is still taking up room in a home where a rescue dog could have been. I'm not saying rescue is for everyone - Heck, I know myself there's a good chance when I'm ready, my next Yorkie I'll be buying from a good breeder after the heartache I've gone through with Benji and Lily, my hat goes off to the good breeders that are careful to keep genetic problems to a minimum in their bloodlines, and certainly don't think you HAVE to show to be a good breeder, but you DO have to be aware of health problems, and do the proper health and genetic screening to greatly minimize the chances of major health issues developing as the dogs you CHOOSE to bring into this world grow up.

And even charging $400, I can guarantee that breeder made a profit. Shots are not expensive, neither is feeding a tiny puppy no matter what you feed it. It may have cost them $100 - $200 max to raise her UNLESS they are the exception and did the genetic screening on the parents, and did everything a responsible breeder would do. I'm not judging you or them, yes, show puppies can have problems to, AND just because you purchase from a show breeder DOES NOT mean they where doing the proper genetic screening. I've seen far to many show breeders that cut corners to minimize their expense on their dogs, too! NO breeder should be exempt from being very carefully checked out and asked to prove themselves before any money is exchanged! And I have no problem with a breeder asking for a deposit before the puppy is ready to go - That tells them I'm serious and I'm not going to back out, I've known many breeders who didn't ask for a deposit, and then suddenly when the puppies where old enough to go to their new homes, buyers flaked, and they where stuck with older puppies that where harder to find homes for that they'd already turned other buyers for.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by kjc

My Tink was surrendered twice. She had to have her anal glands expressed twice a week, also they would just start dripping intermittantly.
She also had high liver enzymes on her last bloodwork with the previous owner. The only reason I know is because we used the same vet and they recognized her when I took her in to be checked. Tink also came with some serious behavior problems, one of which was biting. She had been inappropriately placed in a household with 6 children, all under the age of 12 years old.

Peek A Boo was a runaway, inappropriate urinator, and had two bouts of HGE and a bout of pancreatitis with his previous owner. I was able to decipher the previous owner's phone number off the paperwork and I called her. She said they could not afford to spend any more money on his medical needs.

I spoke with a local rescue here and she said urinating in the house was the #1 reason, not being able to afford medical care was #2. I would imagine behavior problems being high up on that list too.

I think for large breed at least in our breed the overwhelming no 1 reason for surrender is : Behaviour problems - and that is often classified as "aggressive dog". No 2 a distant second is medical costs. Thankfully our breed is not plagued (yet) with the numerous health problems that Yorkies can suffer. And it is not hard for me to make the co-relation between breed popularity increase, bybers, and mills = HEALTH concerns sky rocketing.
Our breeders when hyperuricosuria was found to be prevalent in our breed, and seminars were offered to the BRT breeders on this condition, and that there WAS a Dna test for it; in three years going on 4 years of dissemination, the number of dogs tested for this went from a measely 30, to over 300 dogs.

Thankfully the mills are not interested in churning out BRT;s as they take up a whole lot of very valuable space to house, not to mention to feed. Plus I don;t think they even make the top 100 breeds in AKC popularity

Most I believe of our puppy buyers buy pet insurance. While we don't have many problems, we do have ED and HD at a high prevalence. I strongly encourage the purchase of same. And when you pay on average $2500-$3000 for a puppy, most buyers see the value in a good pet health plan that does cover genetic conditions, +++ I want them to purchase a plan that will cover prescription drugs, and remedial care, such as physiotherapy et al.

You don't want to know what a good show potential dog costs

[gemy]

[QUOTE=DBlain;4019558]

It would be such a perfect world if the only people that bred dogs did it to better the breed and health test them all but that is just not realistic. Can you imagine how few dogs there would be if we could only buy from show breeders. So what do people do that can't find a show breeder to buy from or just want a small dog, where do they go. All I know is if you search hard, do your research, and be prepared for what life throws you, there are viable options between puppy mills and show breeders and Lola is living proof.


Donna: there is much I loved about your whole response; but the above extract is one that is near and dear to my heart.

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this. I think pro-actively the breed clubs in conjunction with the reputable registries need to head the charge on this one.

I think it would not be too hard for all to agree that the Number 1 concern of any breeder of dogs should be the current and future health of the dog. So health tests including pre breeding screening tests are mandatory.

The reality is that not all persons have the desire, money, or personal health necessary to endure the rigors of the show world. It is an expensive proposition to finish a dog in the conformation world.

What if we (the breed clubs) established a system, I will out of thin air pick a name for this system. The Bronze Breeders Award.

To be a member here in good standing you a) must be a member in good standing of your breed club b) and a member of CKC Canadian Kennel club. or the AKC which ever is relevant.

In order to qualify for this Honored Designation the following needs to happen:
1) an Application form to be filled out - stating all the usual things your name, addy, etc.

2) A fee paid for the examination of the dog(s) you wish to breed

3) A passing grade from this examination.

4) Signed affadivat for a mentorship program. The program is free, and you will be mentored by at least one and up to three breed experts, from join date.

The mentorship program, includes one onsite visit to help you set up your whelping area, and supplies.

Whelping coach when the time comes.

Guidance on where, when, and what health tests are required and appropriate timing of same.

A breed specific support group you can reach out to by email and or phone call.

Reference books on whelping, and good on line learning programs.

The Actual Examination of the Dog

2 Breed experts, and one CKC judge experienced in judging your breed.

A written critique is provided, and the session is videotaped. The judges independently will score your dog out of 100, on various aspects of the dog.

The DQ's - for some but not all breeds can be softened IF it doesn't impact too negatively on the health of the dog.

For eg: in my breed the only acceptable bite is SCISSOR. If the dog has a flat bite that dog can still do most everything quite well indeed. Or if the dog has a missing tooth due to injury sustained earlier. (must be documented by a vet).

There will be an overall mark to score how well this dog conforms to the standard in physical structure requirements.

Temperament - IMHO will always have a DQ . Wrong temperament you will not get approval to Breed this dog.

The idea here is to structure a healthy group of breeding animals, that actually may meet the standard, but their owners can not go the show ring route; or dogs that are very good representatives of the breed, but one or two major flaws have kept them from the show ring. These flaws are not to be of a known health concern; like one undescended testicle. Or testing positive on PRA, or thyroid or heart concerns.

This can be a win win for the breed clubs, and the breed as a whole. It will open up for purchase more dogs that have been properly heath tested, and in turn should be a good and healthy representative themselves of the breed.

Also Bronze Breeders must sell on spay and neuter contract, unless litter evaluation done by two breed experts concur on potential show worthy candidate(s).

I am okay with the reality that not everyone might be able to own a purebred dog. I understand that the market place places immense pressure in a profit motivated society to jump in and fill a supply "gap". I think perhaps overtime, more of North America society will begin to change their minds about it is OKAY to breed for profit dogs/cats, future companion animals.

I do know that as it stands now, there is an impossible gap, between what good show breeders want/can produce, and the demand for most breeds.

[TxVicki]

Good Grief! I guess this is a take off from a thread that was closed.

[kjc]

Just for the record, most the dogs found in shelters in Maryland are Pitt Bulls and PB Mixes, and have been for years.

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by DBlain

What type of dog I have or anyone has is irrelevant to the topic of this thread, but that is OK with me because I am proud of Lola and I have NO shame in how I acquired her. In fact if given the chance myself and others that I know would purchase a dog from Lola's parents in a heartbeat, but that is not possible now. I posted before that I paid $450.00 but I just dug out the old check stub and it was actually $400.00. I doubt the person that bred her made much money since she was 16 weeks with all her shots except for rabies, she was clean, well fed, free of any parasites, worms, etc. She did not come from a puppy mill or a pet store, I did not buy her off the internet sight unseen and pay thousands or put a deposit on her at 3 weeks old or take her home at 8 weeks old. After having 4 purebreds from show breeders, and each having a quirk or health issue, I knew exactly what I wanted this time and I am happy to have found it. She will turn 2 in Dec. so far she is healthy but like with any other dog health tested or not who knows what the future will bring, I just keep my fingers crossed and keep up with vet visits.

It would be such a perfect world if the only people that bred dogs did it to better the breed and health test them all but that is just not realistic. Can you imagine how few dogs there would be if we could only buy from show breeders. So what do people do that can't find a show breeder to buy from or just want a small dog, where do they go. All I know is if you search hard, do your research, and be prepared for what life throws you, there are viable options between puppy mills and show breeders and Lola is living proof.

Buying purebred or mixes do not cause more dogs in shelters, shelter populations are the result of many things, including cruel people, people unprepared to care for a dog, people buying the wrong kind of dog, people not being able to train a dog, people that go through life changes and so forth. I am glad that rescue groups exist and I bow down to those that choose that route when bringing a pet into their life and even help when I can with some $$$. But as it has been said on YT many times not everyone is cut out to own or foster a rescue pet, plus every pet owner should be allowed to choose what type of dog fits their needs and how they acquire it.

Excellent post; infact, I am deeply affected and highly impressed!

I am one of those that so wishes that no human or animal suffered, and no I am not comparing the two. I don't believe in unethical practices regarding breeding period. I am not "against" people who breed mixes, I just can't be biased like that, its not in me. I may change my mind down the road, I don't know...I continuously find myself learning more and more and that changes my perspectives.

I am adamantly against puppy mills, brokers, unethical breeders and I will and do advocate for them always. I can not walk away from it, even though it would be easier.

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by kjc

Just for the record, most the dogs found in shelters in Maryland are Pitt Bulls and PB Mixes, and have been for years.

Ditto in WNY

[hobbette]

I just want to say, I would be more likely to get a mix from someone I really trusted than a shelter dog. I feel really bad for the dogs that end up there, but I don't feel I'm a good enough trainer to fix all the problems that can come with them.

While Yuri didn't come from a shelter he came from a bad situation... I got Yuri from my husbands cousin, after she impulse bought 2 puppies at Christmas one year then figured out she couldn't handle them. His cousin isn't exactly stable, and though Yuri is better than when I got him, he STILL has some problems 3 years later.

I love Yuri to death, but I can't handle another crazy dog, sometimes I can barely handle him. I know that most if not all shelter dogs could be retrained I just don't think everyone is capable of doing so.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by hobbette

I just want to say, I would be more likely to get a mix from someone I really trusted than a shelter dog. I feel really bad for the dogs that end up there, but I don't feel I'm a good enough trainer to fix all the problems that can come with them.

While Yuri didn't come from a shelter he came from a bad situation... I got Yuri from my husbands cousin, after she impulse bought 2 puppies at Christmas one year then figured out she couldn't handle them. His cousin isn't exactly stable, and though Yuri is better than when I got him, he STILL has some problems 3 years later.

I love Yuri to death, but I can't handle another crazy dog, sometimes I can barely handle him. I know that most if not all shelter dogs could be retrained I just don't think everyone is capable of doing so.

This is a good and valid point - And where I think RESCUE comes in. And you'd be surprised at how many dogs I've gotten with NO issues from shelters, they simply where victoms of circumstance. But by adopting from a reputable rescue that screens their dogs both medically and behaviorally, and operates out of foster homes that works them through any issues they may have, you know what you're getting into. Not saying that's always the way - I have no problem with getting dogs from good breeders, or taking dogs in that someone else can't keep. But I don't think it's right for ANYONE to use them as a way to make a living or to profit off of. These are living, breathing, feeling beings, not a cash crop!

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by DBlain

Buying purebred or mixes do not cause more dogs in shelters, shelter populations are the result of many things, including cruel people, people unprepared to care for a dog, people buying the wrong kind of dog, people not being able to train a dog, people that go through life changes and so forth.

I was so ticked off by people I know who implied that by buying ZoE I was responsible for a dog in a shelter being put to death.

Originally Posted by Rescuemomma

EVERY breeder adds to the problem no matter how good.

Now true, a good breeder will keep in contact with who they sell their babies to, and make sure their babies never end up in the shelters, but that dog is still taking up room in a home where a rescue dog could have been.

How so? It seems like you are making the assumption that if a person, such as myself, didn't buy a dog from their breeder, then they would obtain a dog from a shelter.

I just don't get that kind of logic....

So, some idiot got to choose where he/she bought their dog, but now because of that idiot...I'm supposed to be limited in where I should get my dog? And then be made to feel like I'm in someway responsible for some idiot's unwanted dog being put to death, because I bought a dog of my choosing from who I wanted to buy it from.

My money, my home, my family...MY CHOICE!

* Now to respond to the OP's original thread question.

Originally Posted by DBlain

Just curious do you think a good vet or a reputable vet knows about the connection of pet stores with puppy mills. Do you think they know about the horrors of puppy mills. In your opinion would a good vet would encourage the breeding of a yorkie pair bought at a pet store?

Yes, I believe good vets are very aware of the connection between pet stores & puppy mills, and would not promote breeding of such dogs.

But, there are bad vets who are also aware of the connections & choose to profit from both. There is a pet store (The Family Puppy) in our local mall. You buy the puppies with a vet package included, and all vet services are provided by a local vet hopital (Swartz Creek Veterinary Hospital), which obviously has no problems with making money of poorly bred dogs.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

I was so ticked off by people I know who implied that by buying ZoE I was responsible for a dog in a shelter being put to death.



How so? It seems like you are making the assumption that if a person, such as myself, didn't buy a dog from their breeder, then they would obtain a dog from a shelter.

I just don't get that kind of logic....

So, some idiot got to choose where he/she bought their dog, but now because of that idiot...I'm supposed to be limited in where I should get my dog? And then be made to feel like I'm in someway responsible for some idiot's unwanted dog being put to death, because I bought a dog of my choosing from who I wanted to buy it from.

My money, my home, my family...MY CHOICE!

* Now to respond to the OP's original thread question.


Yes, I believe good vets are very aware of the connection between pet stores & puppy mills, and would not promote breeding of such dogs.

But, there are bad vets who are also aware of the connections & choose to profit from both. There is a pet store (The Family Puppy) in our local mall. You buy the puppies with a vet package included, and all vet services are provided by a local vet hopital (Swartz Creek Veterinary Hospital), which obviously has no problems with making money of poorly bred dogs.

Not really, I'm simply saying that if breeder dogs weren't so readily available, then many people would be more likely to look at rescue groups, shelters, or dogs that people could no longer keep for whatever reason that are dying every day. Of course everyone has a choice, which is why I have no problem with good breeders that are careful about how they breed. There are good reason to get a dog from either source.