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Old 01-15-2013, 10:12 AM   #1
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Confused Am I Contributing to my Puppies Fighting?

First some background...Yoshi is a 1-year old male. Momo is an 8-month old female. Both spayed/neutered. Yoshi was first in our home. Momo arrived about 6 months later.

Recently, they've begun fighting. A lot. Multiple times a day. Major triggers = when the doorbell rings, seeing a squirrel during a walk, for attention when my husband comes home from work. These things start an all out war. Minor triggers = toys, elk anters, playing turning into fighting. These don't escalate into battles, most likely because they happen inside the home when they have my full attention & I can stop them quickly.

Since Yoshi is the senior dog, I've always made it a point to attend to him first - first to eat, first to get harnessed for a walk, first to be groomed, greeted, etc.

However, I've been watching their behavior & it seems like Momo is trying to position herself as the boss (or possibly HAS positioned herself as boss).
Examples =
1. On walks, Momo is always in front. She walks in front even when unleashed.
1. Momo is always first at the door to greet me when I come home. Yoshi waits on the arm of the couch & greets me after I make eye contact & say "Hi Yoshi". I walk straight past Momo & greet Yoshi first.
2. Momo eats first. They eat in separate rooms, but they can see each other through the baby gate. Even if I put Yoshi's food down first, Momo will eat first. Yoshi waits until Momo is at least half finished before he begins to eat. Sometimes he waits longer. They eat in separate rooms because Momo will eat Yoshi's food if I put down 2 plates. Neither of them growl and/or show aggression.
3. Momo is first up the stairs & on the bed.
4. I've also noticed Momo humping Yoshi. I've seen it happen less than 10 times. Yoshi just keeps chewing on his toy & lets her do it. I tell her to stop.

Yoshi does not seem to be bothered by Momo's "going first" behavior. He acts like he could care less.

They're fine during training sessions. They sit nicely, wait for commands & don't fight over treats. They each have separate beds in each room, but many times the sleep snuggled next to each other.

Momo definitely has more energy. Some would even call her "high-strung". She's a barker. She's a chewer. She doesn't like being on her back. Sometimes all 3 of us will be laying on the couch & she'll just growl. Nothing is touching her, nothing has moved. She just growls. She won't even lift her head up to do it. Yoshi is chill. An affectionate gentleman. He loves belly rubs & is always on his back. He rarely barks. He never growled until he started fighting with Momo. He's seemed more anxious to me lately though.

Momo used to be the one who typically started a fight. Lately, Yoshi has been starting fights as well. I've been noticing that he's starting them more often than he used to.

So here's my question...has Momo positioned herself as the higher ranking of the 2 & am I causing the canine rivalry by treating Yoshi as the favorite?

Also, I don't crate. I crated during potty training. I used the small plastic travel crates. I still sort of use them. I took the doors off of them & keep them in my bedroom. They don't actually sleep in them. But they hang out in their crates sometimes to chew on a toy or something. They also bury their treats in their crates. Another question...Should I buy them crates for the main floor of the house so that they can get away from each other & have their own space?

Last question...99% of our walks end up in a fight. Should I walk the separately?

Sorry this post is so long. I tried to give some details about exactly what is going on so that I could get some good advice & try to resolve this before it gets to the next level.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:40 AM   #2
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well sounds to me like momo is the dominant. but in the end you are leader and they must both respect that. i believe they should always have a spot that is there own. mine have certain beds and when they have enough of each other they go to their own bed but they do not have fights...keylo drives cedric nuts with playing and toy stealing but he only vocalizes it he doesnt get snappy with her ever. were fighting is involved this might be a good idea a safe haven for either of them to go to when they choose.

what is causing the fights during walking, just seeing a squirrel...and how are you handling an all out fight..or what corrective action are you taking maybe a better way to say it.??

is momo well socialized?? have you even done training classes with momo?? these are just things that im thinking might help.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:51 AM   #3
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I have to keep this short but I would give Momo more attention to see if it helps to cut back on her aggression.. I think Yoshi may just be defending himself.

Mine will go after each other if they can't get to the trigger (squirrel, car, kid on bike) it's just displaced aggression. I've had one go after me while walking alone and a squirrel ran past. Just correct them and move on.

Also, act like you are their leader. IF you let them make the decisions, it can cause more problems. When I see any one of mine trying to be more dominant, I step in as a reminder. I know this goes against what many others say... JMHO and how I run my pack. Haven't had an actual altercation in over a year. I don't know if this will work for you and yours... good luck.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:41 PM   #4
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So maybe I'll slowly start giving more attention to Momo to see if that helps. I think that Yoshi might be getting stressed out because I keep pressuring him to be more dominant with her & it just isn't in his nature. That may be causing him to instigate the fighting. My poor baby must be fed up & frustrated.

I think I will purchase crates for them for the main floor of the house. They do have their beds & their own "areas". But they might feel better if they could get away from each other & have some quiet time in a "den".

I'm pretty sure they do see me as their leader. They listen & follow commands. When I clap my hands & say "STOP!", they stop. I haven't had a problem with them acting out towards ME - just each other. So far. I am going to pay special attention to that...making sure that I don't lose their respect. I feel like I'm still somewhat in control of the situation right now. I just want to put an end it it before it gets any worse.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:54 PM   #5
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Yoshi is probably passive and easy going by nature
I think some yorkies/dogs don't mind not being boss.

Rosco is not a yorkie but he lets Joel get his way with ANYTHING. I try to get Rosco to care more because we planned on him being the boss when we brought Joel home but it's like he likes being bossed by Joel,lol
Don't ask me how a 8lb yorkie can control a 170lb Akita!
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ilovejoel View Post
Yoshi is probably passive and easy going by nature
I think some yorkies/dogs don't mind not being boss.

Rosco is not a yorkie but he lets Joel get his way with ANYTHING. I try to get Rosco to care more because we planned on him being the boss when we brought Joel home but it's like he likes being bossed by Joel,lol
Don't ask me how a 8lb yorkie can control a 170lb Akita!
LOL. I'm trying to picture that in my mind How cute!

But that's exactly how I was with my two...I try to get Yoshi to stick up for himself & be the boss. I guess I just need to ride the wave & let it be. I hope it works!
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:04 PM   #7
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LOL. I'm trying to picture that in my mind How cute!

But that's exactly how I was with my two...I try to get Yoshi to stick up for himself & be the boss. I guess I just need to ride the wave & let it be. I hope it works!
How do you get Yoshi to stick up for himself?

You may need to intervene and knock Momo down a notch or two, show her you will protect Yoshi and that you are her boss.

My Tink would take over the house if I let her. She has it in for Peek A Boo, my 16YO. She bumps him going out the door, she always tries to be first (they almost got stuck in the doggy door trying to go through it at the same time, lol). She's big and he's little, so I can't just let her do as she pleases when it comes to him. I do step in and correct her when she gets full of herself and tries to control everybody and starts bullying him. It also helps with his self esteem... he knows Mommie will protect him.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:59 AM   #8
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I haven't updated my post because I've been trying to really observe the 2 to make sure that I have accurate information about their behavior. Now I'm not too sure...

After spending a day or so pretty much doing nothing but watching them, I think that Yoshi DOES care. He seems annoyed by Momo & he snaps at her more often then I thought. He doesn't bark. But he does growl. A lot.

He growls when I give her any kind of attention & then he'll proceed to start biting her...not full on, hard hurtful biting, but he's definitelty biting. Momo does go up the stairs before him & walks ahead during walks. But I'm thinking it's because she's just faster & she has a different walk. Yoshi trots. Momo walks.

I'm also trying to figure out when the playing turns into fighting. When they're rolling around together & playing, Yoshi will eventually start to growl and show his teeth. But Momo looks like she's still in play mode. When the growling starts, I pull them apart & separate them. Then Yoshi will look at Momo throught the baby gate & start to whine like he wants to be with her.

Quote:
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How do you get Yoshi to stick up for himself?
Since Yoshi is the senior dog, when they fight over a toy, I clap my hands & say "STOP!". Then I always give they toy to Yoshi & replace Momo's toy with a similar toy. They have 2 of everything. That's just an example. I don't know if this is the correct thing to do, but I've been trying to reinforce the idea that Momo should respect Yoshi.

I don't want to change how I treat them & react to the fighting differently until I'm sure about what's going on. I don't want them to get confused if I have to change my method. I'm going to try to shoot a video of them so that I can show my vet...and post it here. It's just hard catching them "in the moment".

In the meantime, I started reading Dog Sense by John Bradshaw. Wow. He's hard core. I'm not sure if I agree with everything I've read so far, but it's a VERY interesting read. I haven't gotten far enough in the book to read anything about his views about relationships in a multi-dog household. If he does touch upon the subject in the book, I'm not sure if I'll agree with his opinions.

I'm also going to speak with my vet to see if he can refer me to a behaviorist. This isn't a MAJOR problem yet, but I'm just afraid that it might turn into something more serious if I don't address it now. Plus, I'm adding another pup to our household in May or June. I want these 2 to get along nicely before the new pup arrives.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:56 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
I haven't updated my post because I've been trying to really observe the 2 to make sure that I have accurate information about their behavior. Now I'm not too sure...

After spending a day or so pretty much doing nothing but watching them, I think that Yoshi DOES care. He seems annoyed by Momo & he snaps at her more often then I thought. He doesn't bark. But he does growl. A lot..
I begin correcting at the first growl. Just an 'Ah, ah' now, but at first I got between them for a visual block or a physical separation if needed. When they appear to be calm, I let them continue to interact. This is not a time out where one gets put in a room or crate, it happens right where the growls started, I just intervene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
He growls when I give her any kind of attention & then he'll proceed to start biting her...not full on, hard hurtful biting, but he's definitelty biting. Momo does go up the stairs before him & walks ahead during walks. But I'm thinking it's because she's just faster & she has a different walk. Yoshi trots. Momo walks. .
I'd give him more attention. When you first walk in the door, I would greet Momo, then look at Yoshi and make eye contact and greet him also, in the same breath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
I'm also trying to figure out when the playing turns into fighting. When they're rolling around together & playing, Yoshi will eventually start to growl and show his teeth. But Momo looks like she's still in play mode. When the growling starts, I pull them apart & separate them. Then Yoshi will look at Momo throught the baby gate & start to whine like he wants to be with her..
At the first growl, "Ah, ah!'. If he continues, or shows his teeth in a threatening manner, I would stand up and sternly say 'No, play nice'. If he continues, then I'd visually block him from her until he calms down. After 10-30 seconds, he should remain calm and resume playing. If not, a longer separation may be needed, and/or redirect both to chew on toys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
Since Yoshi is the senior dog, when they fight over a toy, I clap my hands & say "STOP!". Then I always give they toy to Yoshi & replace Momo's toy with a similar toy. They have 2 of everything. That's just an example. I don't know if this is the correct thing to do, but I've been trying to reinforce the idea that Momo should respect Yoshi..
I use Hide a Squirrel, with 6 identical squirrels. Give it to Momo first but have an identical toy to give Yoshi right after. Okay to switch every now and then... keep them guessing. Or make them do a trick to earn the toy. Gets their mind off fighting, and to focus on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
I don't want to change how I treat them & react to the fighting differently until I'm sure about what's going on. I don't want them to get confused if I have to change my method. I'm going to try to shoot a video of them so that I can show my vet...and post it here. It's just hard catching them "in the moment"..
Change can be good... if doing something differently produces undesirable results, just change again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
In the meantime, I started reading Dog Sense by John Bradshaw. Wow. He's hard core. I'm not sure if I agree with everything I've read so far, but it's a VERY interesting read. I haven't gotten far enough in the book to read anything about his views about relationships in a multi-dog household. If he does touch upon the subject in the book, I'm not sure if I'll agree with his opinions. .
I can't comment on this... other than seeking info is a good thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresiana View Post
I'm also going to speak with my vet to see if he can refer me to a behaviorist. This isn't a MAJOR problem yet, but I'm just afraid that it might turn into something more serious if I don't address it now. Plus, I'm adding another pup to our household in May or June. I want these 2 to get along nicely before the new pup arrives.
Decide what you want. Will you accept them tolerating each other, or are you seeking a closer relationship between them? My goal was that no one ended up at the vet's due to injury, lol. If I see mine sharing a bed, it may look all cuddly and snuggly to an outsider, but I know that one is trying to steal the bed from the other.

I wouldn't say mine love each other, Peek and Sapphire, who are both the same size and color, appear to have some kind of a special bond between them.

Tink and Finny are a bit wilder and also more similar in size. When I first got Finny, a Biewer, Tink treated her like a big toy. I caught Tink dragging Finny across the living room rug by her ear! Finny went limp, and no injury was inflicted. I wanted interaction between them, so I would stop Tink and tell her, gently, 'No, no, Finny is not a toy, she is a doggy. Play nice.' Then I'd give both toys to redirect them. Tink stopped doing this after about 4-5 times over 2-3 months.

Tink and Peek (my senior) barely tolerate each other, but they both know I will not put up with any serious aggression from either, and that I will protect them both. I do watch those two closer, as arguments are more likely to occur between them, even now.

I could go on, but I will spare you, lol. I have spent a lot of time watching their interactions, correcting anything I don't want to see, nurturing egos, and building their self esteem (all came from different environments and have had more than one home). It is a lot of work, but I want the best for all of them. I try to make each one feel special to me, and each one is special, in their own way.

I wish you luck with the vet and the behaviorist. Keep updating...
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:50 AM   #10
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Thanks so much for all of your tips! I'm going to try all of those suggestions. I've also searched the forum & seen a lot of advice you've given other people in similar situations.

Both of them have dragged each other across the living room by ear and/or by mustache before! It's a little frightening, isn't it?? They haven't drawn blood yet, but I don't even want to get to that point. So I suppose I my goal would be to lessen the growling & no injuries, blood or no blood.

In a perfect world, I'd love to have them a closer relationship than just tolerating each other. But I'm not going to force that if it isn't meant to be. I'll keep a close eye on them, watch how they interact, step in when I need to, try those tips & redirect, redirect & redirect.

Thank you!!!
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:55 PM   #11
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Thanks so much for all of your tips! I'm going to try all of those suggestions. I've also searched the forum & seen a lot of advice you've given other people in similar situations.

Both of them have dragged each other across the living room by ear and/or by mustache before! It's a little frightening, isn't it?? They haven't drawn blood yet, but I don't even want to get to that point. So I suppose I my goal would be to lessen the growling & no injuries, blood or no blood.

In a perfect world, I'd love to have them a closer relationship than just tolerating each other. But I'm not going to force that if it isn't meant to be. I'll keep a close eye on them, watch how they interact, step in when I need to, try those tips & redirect, redirect & redirect.

Thank you!!!
I would also suggest to keep a diary or journal for notes of the behaviors, corrections and results. It could prove very helpful (along with any video) to your vet and behaviorist.

Also, I randomly reward good behavior with praise and/or a treat. For some unknown reason, my dogs understand more of what I want them to do when I reward them for being good, rather than always just trying to discourage the bad behavior. Like if two are just laying together being good, I'll choose that moment to tell them they are good dogs, and stop and pet them or give them a Cheerio or two! (This has worked great with the grandkids too...lol.)
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:24 AM   #12
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I would also suggest to keep a diary or journal for notes of the behaviors, corrections and results. It could prove very helpful (along with any video) to your vet and behaviorist.

Also, I randomly reward good behavior with praise and/or a treat. For some unknown reason, my dogs understand more of what I want them to do when I reward them for being good, rather than always just trying to discourage the bad behavior. Like if two are just laying together being good, I'll choose that moment to tell them they are good dogs, and stop and pet them or give them a Cheerio or two! (This has worked great with the grandkids too...lol.)
Good idea about rewarding them for good behavior. I've been so preoccupied with monitoring their behavior the past week, that I've forgotten that they're just puppies & they're supposed to be having fun! Thanks
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:43 AM   #13
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*UPDATE*
I spent a lot of time over the past few days monitoring my 2 & jotting down notes. I have to say, the tips & advice worked! I haven't had a real fight all weekend so far!!! That didn't take long at all They have been nipping at each other occaisionally. But the number of little nips & grunts - and the time in between -are waaay less than they were just a few days ago.

I'm still meeting with the behaviorist. I'd just like another opinion on the matter from someone who can actually SEE my 2 pups interact with each other. Plus, I'm up for any advice to help prevent any kind of agression from happening in the future.

I'm also still keeping a close eye on them. I don't want to come this far & then have things get messed up because I thought everything was fixed.

So THANK YOU for the suggestions & tips!!!!! We're a happy family this weekend
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:57 AM   #14
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Happy together
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:21 PM   #15
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Good luck and good wishes for continued success.
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