ok so we are getting closer and closer reread that final line you wrote ...ok it said.."although I think most people here TRY to achieve that".. still with me it is in that try that it all falls apart and dogs get hurt oh and humans too sometimes. it is black and white on the rough stuff no grey. On the postive as you are playing in shades you have more room to move and adjust. with rolling you have to get it done in one shot, one and more often then not you can not. your rolling a dog more then once your in a battle and that is no win.

In rookie hands the risk is to high. so working slow and steady decreases the risk of damage and things going sideways. sideways is ugly.

JL

just had to ask something here...if i did roll her a couple times thinking it would help and then realized that she just didn't look right when i did it and stopped, will that still scar her for life, she's only 8 weeks old, will she be ok now since i quit doing it only did i maybe 3 times total and not for very long....oooopppsss....

also, the presence that chachi talks about is called "calm-assertivness" it's a Ceasar thing, it's about maintaining a calm even temper but still maintaining that presence and that control as a leader, a fair and loving leader, but you don't take any crap either, you are in control of all things, food, toys, and playtime, when you say a command the dog listens because you have that confidence as a leader, never train when angry, upset, or frustrated because you have lost that calm-assertiveness and you have lost leadership mood. the dogs know when you are in the right mood to lead and when you are crumbling with your own stress and problems. they need a confident, calm-assertive leader like Ceasar or Victoria act in their shows. a dog won't nip Victoria and she said its' because she gives a leading vibe off to dogs and they don't dare cross her.

Well I agree with you then if they arent the leader in their dogs life then its not going to work

Rachel, I would really recommend you use the Nothing in Life is Free method for Sadie. It is a very effective method of positive training. It is recommended by the Humane Society of the US.

http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PFL_PD...fe_Is_Free.pdf

Nothing in Life is Free

Nothing in Life is Free Gaining control of your dog humanely

Look at this great learning and room for me to learn to Thanks.

Ok so let me see if I am getting this right correct me if I not geting what your are sking just right.
8 weeks old right and you have rolled her three times will it scare her for life.
Some hard cases say yes me not so much in that you have 3 years in which to turn it around and if you stop now and do nt revist it you can make a change. reason being is that dogs do not mentally meture out and what you see is waht you get until three years of age after that it great managmanent not changeing brain funtion. So yes you can fix this and there shoud be no lasting damage. Now I always say as long as you have a dog with a great deal of emoinally and mantal bouce back or and I kow this will be spelt wrong reslinancy. if not it may take longer and it may stick but at 8 weeks I thinking your good to be ok.

Now that last part yet again is the problem all to many of us take what our dogs do personally and that they are out to run the show when all it is is normal doggy behaviour that is not working for your house hold. take that same dog put it into a differnt house and the concern is non exstent.
Also there are far to many that can control thier tempers and it gets out of hand fast. It a power trip.
There no power over adog in postive they go along cause they want to.

clear as mud right. LOL

JL

I am sorry where have you been all my time here...nice refrences stuff.

Scary to see what I know coming out anothers fingers no really it is cool.

JL

i've been working on this one, Sadie has to sit to get her dinner, to get her bully stick and to get played with and treats, i even went so far as to make her sit to get her treats for going potty outside, i praise the crap outta her outside and then i take her inside, i let her come in on her own now, used to carry her, but now she hops up the small steps herself, and then sit waits by the door to get wiped off with puppy wipes and then she has to sit to get her treat in the whole process.

she's amazing though and knows sit very well already.

Good job keep it up.

JL

I just remember what I wanted to say and it has been rolling around my brain for a little bit.

Alpha rolling and rough training only teaches learned helplessness and is not a way to bridge the gap betwen you and the dog it teaches it to never think for it self.

'Learned helplessness as a technical term in animal psychology and related human psychology means a condition of a human being or an animal in which it has learned to behave helplessly, even when the opportunity is restored for it to help itself by avoiding an unpleasant or harmful circumstance to which it has been subjected. Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation (Seligman, 1975).'

JL