Breeder help! - YorkieTalk.com Forums

bnapper12 · 06-01-2018, 08:13 AM

Hi, I'm new to Yorkie talk. So, this is my first encounter with a displeased customer. One customer had the puppy for about 10 days before the puppy became ill. They took the puppy to the vet, vet suspected the puppy had a partial seizure. They ran tests which all came back normal. They then gave the puppy an overdose of diazepam and then gave medicine to reverse the effect. After they couldn't find anything wrong with the puppy they then referred puppy to a neurology specialist. The specialist ran tests on the puppy which all came back normal. No official diagnoses could be found of the illness. They then gave possible causes for the puppy's signs which included portosystemic shunt, microvasculature dysplasia, various types of infection, an immune-mediated inflammation, or other congenital deficits. Note, none of these possible causes were found. No necropsies were performed on the puppy. The owner based on the severity of the puppy chose to have the puppy euthanized. They now want to be reimbursed for the cost of the puppy and vet bills. First of all, they did not sign the health guaranteed contract. They chose not to. The health guaranteed contract stated to take the puppy to the vet within 3 days of purchase for a full examination, they did not. And if the vet found the puppy at that time not to be in good health, Seller must be notified immediately and Seller will resume possession if agreeable to both parties. They only notified me after the incident. They stated to the vet that puppy was acting normal earlier in the day. In the evening, they heard the puppy go into the kitchen and could hear her eating her dog food (be mindful, this is a 1.63 lb puppy, 9 weeks old. How are you to hear a 1.63 lb puppy from a distance eating her food? They apparently let this little puppy rome the house unattended to be able to go into the kitchen by herself to eat). Anything could happen to an unsupervised puppy at this age. They then stated that they then took the dog to play with a neighbor and notes that the dog suddenly was unable to walk well and was falling over. The dog acted like she was going to vomit and then vomited as evidenced by vomit on her mouth. The owner then picked her up and noted she was unable to hold up her head. (For me you would be able to see without picking her up if she was unable to hold up her head. After they contacted me, I agreed to give in good faith to reimburse them for the puppy. They wanted to be reimbursed for the vet bill and the cremation services they had performed as well. I didn't think they had a legitimated claim since there was no official cause of death and they did not sign the health guaranteed contract. What are your thoughts? Thanks

bnapper12 · 06-05-2018, 07:27 AM

Hello, any help on this would be appreciated. Also, what if the owner did not sign the health guarantee contract?

Lovetodream88 · 06-05-2018, 07:45 AM

First off as a breeder you should no better then to send a yorkie puppy to it’s new home before 12 weeks that is a huge huge no no. Also if they didn’t sign the contract you can’t be held responsible. They also should have given you the chance to take the puppy back before just putting it to sleep. Have you yourself talked to the vet or are you going by hearsay?

bnapper12 · 06-05-2018, 08:13 AM

As a breeder, some let puppies go no earlier than 8 wks and some 12 wks. The puppy was in good health when she left at 8 wks. They say the puppy was in a bad state that is why they put the puppy to sleep. The vet wrote the condition of the puppy in the vet summary as possible causes of illness but was no official diagnosis as to the exact cause. The owner signed the puppy sales agreement but not the health guarantee. She chose not to sign. I stated to her that she must take the puppy for full examination after 3 days of purchase. She chose not. She allowed the puppy to rome around the house and into the kitchen to eat and she also, took the puppy out to the neighbor's house to play, with me not knowing if the puppy was around other dogs or not. Anything could have happened to the puppy.

chattiesmom · 06-05-2018, 09:55 AM

I am very sorry for the poor little pup, how this tiny soul suffered and was killed before he/she? ever had a chance to live. I did breed Yorkies but have since retired so I speak with some experience. I will not judge however, I can tell you that the vast majority of reputable breeders would NEVER EVER let a pup leave before 12 weeks and then only if the individual pup was ready. My mentors were some of the most respected AKC Yorkie breeders, who taught me well BEFORE entrusting me with their stock.

With that said, the pup should never have left the dam prior to a minimum of 12 weeks. Even then it is risky to let one that small go as they come with a plethora of concerns. If you had a contract and chose to place the pup without requiring the new owners to sign the contract, the big question is WHY? Was it simply a matter of making a sale at the risk of the pup's well being.

Because you chose to let this tiny too-young pup go to a new home without requiring the new owners sign your health agreement/contract, I would suggest that you just take the loss and rack up the whole sad event as a learning experience. I would reimburse the cost of the pup and 50% of the vet bills, but not the cost of the cremation. Prior to any refund, I would require copies of the vet reports.

Lovetodream88 · 06-05-2018, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnapper12

As a breeder, some let puppies go no earlier than 8 wks and some 12 wks. The puppy was in good health when she left at 8 wks. They say the puppy was in a bad state that is why they put the puppy to sleep. The vet wrote the condition of the puppy in the vet summary as possible causes of illness but was no official diagnosis as to the exact cause. The owner signed the puppy sales agreement but not the health guarantee. She chose not to sign. I stated to her that she must take the puppy for full examination after 3 days of purchase. She chose not. She allowed the puppy to rome around the house and into the kitchen to eat and she also, took the puppy out to the neighbor's house to play, with me not knowing if the puppy was around other dogs or not. Anything could have happened to the puppy.

Good breeders do not let their puppies go before 12 weeks and keep them even longer when they are tiny. As a breeder you should know how important that time with their mom and litter mates are. I think you might need to do a little more research and especially look at the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America reputable breeders follow their rules and they are the mother club for yorkies. If the health contract is the one that said you would take the puppy back if there were health concerns then I personally would say they are out of luck for not signing it.

KatysMom · 06-05-2018, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I am very sorry for the poor little pup, how this tiny soul suffered and was killed before he/she? ever had a chance to live... reimburse the cost of the pup and 50% of the vet bills, but not the cost of the cremation. Prior to any refund, I would require copies of the vet reports.

KatysMom · 06-05-2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

...Prior to any refund, I would require copies of the vet reports.

...and all the vet bills and reciepts.

chattiesmom · 06-05-2018, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatysMom

...and all the vet bills and reciepts.

Absolutely-

Lovetodream88 · 06-05-2018, 02:54 PM

I’m curious why the breeder would need to pay if they refused to sign the health guarantee? Honestly curious not trying to start anything.

KatysMom · 06-05-2018, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I’m curious why the breeder would need to pay if they refused to sign the health guarantee? Honestly curious not trying to start anything.

In order to arrive at an amicable resolution.

maxdog · 06-06-2018, 07:27 AM

JMO, but I don't think you should pay anything other than a full refund of the purchase price. I am disappointed that you would let the puppy go before 12 weeks but that doesn't change the fact that she was offered a health contract and she declined it. If AAA offers me tornado insurance and I decline it, then a tornado destroys my home, I am not entitled to one penny. She may turn around and take you to court but based on what you have told us I don't think you legally owe her the reimbursement, partial or full, of her costs.

I just hope you learn from this and do not let any future puppies go until they are at least 12 weeks.

rjwalt · 08-14-2018, 12:21 PM

The age of the pup is irrelevant to the question you asked, this could have happened after 12 weeks, 6 months, etc....

Anywho, never let a pup go without the prospective owners SIGNING a detailed contract that outlines the policies and procedures in events like these. No signature than they don't get a pup. Always protect yourself. Include a clause that says the dog must be brought back in the event that the vet finds a diagnosis (within the 3 days)to be re-examined by a vet you know and trust! If the pup does not see a vet in 3 days then they loose the right to a full refund and you can specify what illnesses you can guarantee against. Illnesses that fall outside those parameters are just the chance you take when buying an animal.

That pup could have gotten dropped, could have choked and gotten brain damage, etc. There are a million things that can cause a seizure and I believe this dog was euthanized prematurely, perhaps to mask something that happened that was their fault. Were xrays done? could the pup have been dropped?

Bottom line if no contract is signed than it is usually defaulted as an as-is purchase. Dogs are property and they would have to prove you sold them a sick dog on purpose to win anything and because the dog was destroyed, there was never any second opinion possible. You were really nice... You did not have to be and you may have been scammed.

Cassie13 · 12-08-2018, 12:46 PM

I think I should get off this site for awhike. I cant handle reading about all these diseases. After having NO health issues forc14 out of 16 years..this is really scaring me. I only had her every day and now alone. Crying daily. Im not ready to confront a sick puppy. This will destroy me. The reason I stress 4 to 4.5 lbs tops.. is that when you have liw back pain and living in NYC...littke dogs havevto be carried on tgeir vag to go into stores..buses..trains..taxis..markets..drug stires. NYC is diff than suburbs. She loved her bag. And all the clothes I have for her..expensive coats are all for her size. Harness dresses etc. Also I was the best owner you could want for your yorkie. Devoted my life for 16 yrs on her. Did you lose someone during 9/11.

06-01-2018, 08:13 AM	#1
bnapper12 YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2018 Location: Washington DC Posts: 7	Breeder help! Hi, I'm new to Yorkie talk. So, this is my first encounter with a displeased customer. One customer had the puppy for about 10 days before the puppy became ill. They took the puppy to the vet, vet suspected the puppy had a partial seizure. They ran tests which all came back normal. They then gave the puppy an overdose of diazepam and then gave medicine to reverse the effect. After they couldn't find anything wrong with the puppy they then referred puppy to a neurology specialist. The specialist ran tests on the puppy which all came back normal. No official diagnoses could be found of the illness. They then gave possible causes for the puppy's signs which included portosystemic shunt, microvasculature dysplasia, various types of infection, an immune-mediated inflammation, or other congenital deficits. Note, none of these possible causes were found. No necropsies were performed on the puppy. The owner based on the severity of the puppy chose to have the puppy euthanized. They now want to be reimbursed for the cost of the puppy and vet bills. First of all, they did not sign the health guaranteed contract. They chose not to. The health guaranteed contract stated to take the puppy to the vet within 3 days of purchase for a full examination, they did not. And if the vet found the puppy at that time not to be in good health, Seller must be notified immediately and Seller will resume possession if agreeable to both parties. They only notified me after the incident. They stated to the vet that puppy was acting normal earlier in the day. In the evening, they heard the puppy go into the kitchen and could hear her eating her dog food (be mindful, this is a 1.63 lb puppy, 9 weeks old. How are you to hear a 1.63 lb puppy from a distance eating her food? They apparently let this little puppy rome the house unattended to be able to go into the kitchen by herself to eat). Anything could happen to an unsupervised puppy at this age. They then stated that they then took the dog to play with a neighbor and notes that the dog suddenly was unable to walk well and was falling over. The dog acted like she was going to vomit and then vomited as evidenced by vomit on her mouth. The owner then picked her up and noted she was unable to hold up her head. (For me you would be able to see without picking her up if she was unable to hold up her head. After they contacted me, I agreed to give in good faith to reimburse them for the puppy. They wanted to be reimbursed for the vet bill and the cremation services they had performed as well. I didn't think they had a legitimated claim since there was no official cause of death and they did not sign the health guaranteed contract. What are your thoughts? Thanks

06-05-2018, 07:45 AM	#3
Lovetodream88 Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md Posts: 23,247	First off as a breeder you should no better then to send a yorkie puppy to it’s new home before 12 weeks that is a huge huge no no. Also if they didn’t sign the contract you can’t be held responsible. They also should have given you the chance to take the puppy back before just putting it to sleep. Have you yourself talked to the vet or are you going by hearsay? __________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart!

06-05-2018, 09:55 AM	#5
chattiesmom Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 17,674	How very sad for the tiny baby I am very sorry for the poor little pup, how this tiny soul suffered and was killed before he/she? ever had a chance to live. I did breed Yorkies but have since retired so I speak with some experience. I will not judge however, I can tell you that the vast majority of reputable breeders would NEVER EVER let a pup leave before 12 weeks and then only if the individual pup was ready. My mentors were some of the most respected AKC Yorkie breeders, who taught me well BEFORE entrusting me with their stock. With that said, the pup should never have left the dam prior to a minimum of 12 weeks. Even then it is risky to let one that small go as they come with a plethora of concerns. If you had a contract and chose to place the pup without requiring the new owners to sign the contract, the big question is WHY? Was it simply a matter of making a sale at the risk of the pup's well being. Because you chose to let this tiny too-young pup go to a new home without requiring the new owners sign your health agreement/contract, I would suggest that you just take the loss and rack up the whole sad event as a learning experience. I would reimburse the cost of the pup and 50% of the vet bills, but not the cost of the cremation. Prior to any refund, I would require copies of the vet reports. __________________ Silk Step-In Harnesses www.foxypups.etsy.com

06-05-2018, 02:54 PM	#10
Lovetodream88 Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md Posts: 23,247	I’m curious why the breeder would need to pay if they refused to sign the health guarantee? Honestly curious not trying to start anything. __________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart!

06-06-2018, 07:27 AM	#12
maxdog Donating YT 5000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Brownstown MI USA Posts: 18,650	JMO, but I don't think you should pay anything other than a full refund of the purchase price. I am disappointed that you would let the puppy go before 12 weeks but that doesn't change the fact that she was offered a health contract and she declined it. If AAA offers me tornado insurance and I decline it, then a tornado destroys my home, I am not entitled to one penny. She may turn around and take you to court but based on what you have told us I don't think you legally owe her the reimbursement, partial or full, of her costs. I just hope you learn from this and do not let any future puppies go until they are at least 12 weeks. __________________ Max & Sasha's daddy

06-05-2018, 07:27 AM	#2
bnapper12 YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2018 Location: Washington DC Posts: 7	Hello, any help on this would be appreciated. Also, what if the owner did not sign the health guarantee contract?

06-05-2018, 08:13 AM	#4
bnapper12 YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2018 Location: Washington DC Posts: 7	As a breeder, some let puppies go no earlier than 8 wks and some 12 wks. The puppy was in good health when she left at 8 wks. They say the puppy was in a bad state that is why they put the puppy to sleep. The vet wrote the condition of the puppy in the vet summary as possible causes of illness but was no official diagnosis as to the exact cause. The owner signed the puppy sales agreement but not the health guarantee. She chose not to sign. I stated to her that she must take the puppy for full examination after 3 days of purchase. She chose not. She allowed the puppy to rome around the house and into the kitchen to eat and she also, took the puppy out to the neighbor's house to play, with me not knowing if the puppy was around other dogs or not. Anything could have happened to the puppy.

08-14-2018, 12:21 PM	#13
rjwalt Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: USA Posts: 169	The age of the pup is irrelevant to the question you asked, this could have happened after 12 weeks, 6 months, etc.... Anywho, never let a pup go without the prospective owners SIGNING a detailed contract that outlines the policies and procedures in events like these. No signature than they don't get a pup. Always protect yourself. Include a clause that says the dog must be brought back in the event that the vet finds a diagnosis (within the 3 days)to be re-examined by a vet you know and trust! If the pup does not see a vet in 3 days then they loose the right to a full refund and you can specify what illnesses you can guarantee against. Illnesses that fall outside those parameters are just the chance you take when buying an animal. That pup could have gotten dropped, could have choked and gotten brain damage, etc. There are a million things that can cause a seizure and I believe this dog was euthanized prematurely, perhaps to mask something that happened that was their fault. Were xrays done? could the pup have been dropped? Bottom line if no contract is signed than it is usually defaulted as an as-is purchase. Dogs are property and they would have to prove you sold them a sick dog on purpose to win anything and because the dog was destroyed, there was never any second opinion possible. You were really nice... You did not have to be and you may have been scammed. Last edited by rjwalt; 08-14-2018 at 12:25 PM.

12-08-2018, 12:46 PM	#14
Cassie13 Yorkie Talker Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: nyc Posts: 12 Blog Entries: 1	I think I should get off this site for awhike. I cant handle reading about all these diseases. After having NO health issues forc14 out of 16 years..this is really scaring me. I only had her every day and now alone. Crying daily. Im not ready to confront a sick puppy. This will destroy me. The reason I stress 4 to 4.5 lbs tops.. is that when you have liw back pain and living in NYC...littke dogs havevto be carried on tgeir vag to go into stores..buses..trains..taxis..markets..drug stires. NYC is diff than suburbs. She loved her bag. And all the clothes I have for her..expensive coats are all for her size. Harness dresses etc. Also I was the best owner you could want for your yorkie. Devoted my life for 16 yrs on her. Did you lose someone during 9/11.