So true, not all traits are the result of a single gene, but according to the website linked a short muzzle could be traced to a single gene, although, I don't know if that website is accurate. The yorkies hair, as you say, comes from a complex mixture, and from my understanding, mixtures are even more common than 100% silly, but my point is if you want to know what the offspring will look like as an adult, look at the parents, this is a great indication! I think some people think that the offspring will somehow be so much cuter than the parents, and this is usually not the case, unless the breeder really knows what he/she's doing.

As I said, I don't know about the foreface, beyond what I've read, and that's about the same as you posted. My point was that you (and I mean you in general terms) can't assume all recessive traits follow through as the parti gene, and I was just using that for an example.

Your point about looking to the parents as an indicator of how a pup will mature is more true in line bred dogs than those with an open pedigree. With an open pedigree, there's no telling what will be expressed and I've even had surprises (a teapot from 5 pound parents) with line bred dogs. I've also had pups that had that happy mixing of genes where I thought they were better (for lack of a better word) than either parent.

Yorkies are such a fascinating breed. They never cease to amaze (and perplex) me.

I wasn't talking about the parti gene, (really :D) I never even heard of the parti gene until I came to Yorkietalk. I have studied a little genetics, and I'm just referring to the recessive gene in general. Genetics a fairly exact science, if you knew for sure, which genes were recessive and which were dominant, and if the trait is only governed by one gene, you can predict the results, of course even then we still we are only dealing in probability, but with the recessive gene, it's 100 % probability, and those are good odds. The problem is usually with the dominant gene on predictability, because that is the one that is displayed, yet there only needs to be one dominant gene passed to display the trait. Genetics hold true across species, and the first studies were done on plants, but genetics follows certain strict laws. I don't mean to imply that it's easy though, so many traits are ruled by more than one gene.

I'm not saying a breeder can't have offspring that are better looking than parents, in fact, that should be a goal, but I just don't think a buyer can count on that happening. If it did, I would think the breeder would want to add that dog to his/her breeding program and not sell it as a pet. Every piece of advice I've read on buying a dog, tells the buyer to look at the parents, and I believe that this is a good rule. Of course, I believe that you should find a breeder who looks at the whole line.

Oh, I knew you weren't talking about the parti gene and no, I'm not trying to go there :D I just used that as an example most could relate to. Genetics does all go back to Mendel, but animals are much more complex. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

Going back to the Yorkie coat, 3 distinguishing characteristics (long, straight and smooth) are recessive traits. Sounds easy to lock all that in but it's entirely possible to get a wiry coat, for example, from silk coat parents.

The list I've seen of recessive and dominate traits is the same as what's posted in this thread. In the book I have that's just what it's called... recessive and dominate traits. It doesn't specify if they're single gene characteristics or not. I would think not all are since coat predictability isn't 100%.

Actually, my posts are mainly to inform buyers who know even less than I do, I'm really not trying to teach anything to breeders. I knew that the Yorkie coat was one of the most difficult to obtain, but I guess the silky coat isn't based on one gene, or could be linked or incompletely dominant or other things I know nothing about. :D Hmm, not so sure why you breeders don't like my buying tip of "look at the parents." :D Really that's all it is, a tip.

Nancy,

The yorkie everything is one of the most difficult thing to breed.

But, if you really want to know what a puppy will turn out like....take a look at the grandparents...

I do notice a lot of breeders advertise that grandpa was a champ! :D Seriously, most people who buy puppies never look at the parents, and I think this is a huge mistake.


I have heard that, you have a better chance of producing another champion from the pair that produced the champion, than from the champion himself. Any truth to that?

You silly girl....advertising /grandsire champ!.....

Here's my read on looking at the parents....while it's nice, more often than not, a dam/sire will produce grandsire/granddam. Now, while it's nice to be able to see both parents....often time that is an impossibility, especially in a situation where a bitch was sent to another breeder to be bred to a top dog.

Champion to Champion, while it is a terrific goal...what is more important is to line breed..it's the only way to set type and produce Champions.....You can breed Champion to Champion and the genetics just don't mix properly and you get something that is not suitable for the ring. Even if you repeat breed, you can never reproduce the same litter again. A breeder is lucky if you get one show dog in every 6 litters.

Well, in cases such as your are describing the breeder should have some darn good pictures to show, and nice little pedigree to frame. How would you have answered the OP's question?

Nancy...I wasn't trying to be disagreeable....just adding something to a subject that I admittedly don't have a full grasp of. And to clarify, looking at the parents can be a guide in choosing a puppy, but not so telling as some might imagine.

No problem, and I admit, I don't have a handle on the pixie look versus the teddy bear or doll face, people have different opinions on what each term means. One breeder said she thought the perfect face was the distance from each corner of the eye would be equal to the distance between the corner of the eye and the tip of the nose, kind of like a perfect triangle, and that was something I could understand. So many people buy a puppy off a website based on the picture of the puppy, and I'm only trying to help these people. I'm not even sure the picture of the puppy is the puppy they actually will receive. That's why I think seeing the parents or the parent's pictures are important. If anyone has better suggestions on advice I can give these people, I would love to learn it.

Nancy,

I don't know how I would answer the OP posters question. Since, pixie, doll face, teddy bear....just isn't in my criteria. I breed for standard and an overal balanced look. While I love a beautiful head, if the topline, movement, structure, health isn't there, a beautiful had won't cut it for me.

If one orders the Illustrated Standard from YTCA it gives a detailed explanation of the standard.

I totally agree with you on this point, but many pet owners don't understand terms like topline, movement, and structure. They understand a cute face, and overall size. I believe that's why many or even most puppy buyers come to YT looking for a certain size dog or a dog with pixie/teddybear/babydoll face, these terms mean something to them. I have seen dogs with a beautiful head and the back was really hunched, and I don't think most pet owners notice things like that, but once you see a beautifully straight back, the hunched back seems to stick out so much. I like the idea of breeding for an overall balanced look, and that why developing an eye is so crucial for breeders, but I don't know if it's really necessary for pet owners. Maybe not seeing the hunched back is better? :confused:

I guess that's why we are here to educate.

I've recently placed a puppy girl in a home, two blocks away. She already had a yorkie. A darling little boy....tiny, beautiful head, but not very balanced; legs to long for it's back, soft coated and skinny. We developed a friendship long before she decided to obtain another. But, through that friendship, she learned a lot. The difference between breeders that are breeding dogs that appeal to the general pet population and breeding dogs to standard.....So, when she approached me for a dog, she wasn't concerned about size; her eye went to this girl that was a bit larger, but beautifully balanced, wonderful structure, great silk coat and wonderful temperament....although she does have a gorgeous head.....Her little girl is going to begin training to become a Therapy Dog.

I will say I've been approaced by many pet owners asking why my their pets don't look like my dogs.....many of these pet owners based their decision on that cute little head. But, aren't all puppies cute?

Lol, exactly! This conversation has come full circle, and so that's why I give the advice to look at the parents, but maybe I should add, look at the grandparents too!

Nancy, as per you last post to me, I know a lot of people love the 'baby doll' or whatever they call it...look. It is precious but now I see people advertising 'extreme baby doll' and stuff like that. I don't think the word 'extreme' should be used in describing most any Yorkie attribute. As a marketing term, it usually means someone has gone too far with a trait. I'd run from anyone using that word (extreme).

One thing about the very short faces. They do seem to have more dental issues than others. It's very hard to tell with a pup sometimes, though. Darla, in my avatar, has matured with a smaller face than she showed as a pup. It's not 'extreme' but is nicely proportioned. One other thing about the doll faces. Round eyes often accompany very short snouts. The breed standard calls for almond eyes and usually the snout follows through. I've never seen the 'very' short snout with almond eyes.

Got one of those very short snout babies....The boy in my avitar/Charmer....almond eyes....Now where that snout came from? but eyes are very correct.......As his sire is Ch Pastoral The Blues Are Back (Johnnie Handsome son) and dam Ch Firacres Ringside Gossip...

Darla does have a gorgeous face! I've heard that yorkies under four pounds have more problems with dental, teeth are too crowded sometimes, I wonder if it has more to do with the fact that the snout is too short than overall weight?

Well, now you see, that's a new one for me. That's why YT is so great...we all learn new things. I can only say what's true for me and my experiences and it's great to talk with others with different ones. I had never noticed that about your avatar. It's hard to tell w/ small pics and I know my camera sometimes distorts things. For instance, my Heidi is very short bodied...not much loin...but I have a pic of her that makes her look part Dachshund LOL and another,taken the same day, that shows a truer proportion. Here they are...

Good question, and I'll defer to Mary about that. My own thinking, based on what I've seen is that it is the snout, more than the overall size of the dog, that could cause dental issues. It may run hand in hand somewhat, though. I've never seen a babydoll teapot :D.

I showed a very nice bitch here for a client and she had a pretty short muzzle with the most beautiful almond shaped eyes and then I campaigned a bitch that had a longer muzzle with the biggest round eyes

Donna

I have Tucker is over 5 1/2 pounds with more of a dental problem than my 3 1/2 pound yorkie with a not so long muzzle but short and then Tucker and Brookie are the ones with the dental problem as in major tarter build up faster than any other yorkie I have and their teeth are wide set I make they have small gaps so their teeth are crowed....I believe it's genetic with the teeth/dental more so, I could be wrong lol

Another example of someone having different experiences. It's things like this that broadens my horizon. Thanks, Donna :)

With tarter it would always be more than one thing, they could have a genetic propensity to produce tartar, overcrowded teeth would make the problem worse, and then of course environmental factors such as dental hygiene and health/pregnancy could affect all that. It just seems like a lot of tinies have lost teeth before the age of 2 and that makes me wonder.

Well Tucker has no problem with over crowding LOL and has never been pregnant or been used for breeding and he has a dental every 6 months simply because of tarter build up so badly.
Krissy is my smallest and still has all her adult teeth and has the least tarter build up and Brookie is her mother and Brookie has already lost a couple of teeth...now Harvey is another Brookie son and his teeth are like Krissy's not bad and still has his teeth but Tucker and Brookie are not related at all. Radar has nice teeth and the tarter doesn't build near as fast and he has a dental cleaning once a year. Of course they all are done by the vet.

I think Yorkie Mad's babies Ollie and Tia have the exact two looks you're talking about. Take a look at her pics...Ollie is the teddy bear look, and Tia is the pixie look, IMO.

Patti's "Pixie" looks almost exactly like my Baby, except Baby's eyes are a tad smaller and more almond shaped.

kjcmsw's "Gracie" is the spitting image of my Bug.

Now here is the kicker. They are sisters from the same litter. I know this to be true. I saw the entire litter when I first visited. It was the only litter in the house. Ironically, it turned out the breeder was a woman my DH knew from 40yrs back..yada yada yada... farming community.. what I mean is it wasn't a puppy mill, pet shop, internet... it was the same litter.. how the heck did that happen... breeders?? anyone?? bueller? bueller?