Pyometra AND pregnancy possible? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

jcwuvzu · 02-17-2009, 12:54 PM

Ok, so I know this is gonna get the wonderful breeders on this forum in an uproar, and for that I apologize, but I am already IN the position, and would like some answers to my questions. It was suggested I come over to the breeder sections because you have handled numerous situations, and I am just a mommy of a baby who is pregnant by a dog down the road. They will not be papered, not be sold, but I am trying to do everything in my power to make sure that they and my baby come out of this ok. That being said...
My yorkie (still dont believe she is fullbred even with papers) is almost three. 5-25-06 is birthday. She weighed 10 lbs before pregnancy, she is at 42 days and now weighs 11.05. So she is gaining weight, even though I have had a dickens of a time getting her to eat lately. Problem is that she has had a vaginal discharge for the last few weeks, and even tho nose has ALWAYS been like sandpaper and dry, now she has crusty boogers too. She started to act weird saturday bloating up, running around house like a crazy girl and then farted for an hour or so!! So we chalked it up to bad gas pains. Understandable. I took her to vet yesterday just to be on safe side, vet says he thinks pyometra cuz white cell count slightly elevated, and wanted to spay immediately. Didnt think she was preg. I made him run ultrasound. Boom, there we saw it. puppies. Not sure how many. She was wiggling too much. My question is, can she have both puppies AND pyometra? And will it hurt the puppies? She is definitely getting spayed after this. But I dont want to kill the puppies. And I dont wanna lose her either. She seems fine today and he gave her antibiotic. Anyone got a clue? Thanks!!

Ellie May · 02-17-2009, 01:19 PM

Metritis in Dogs
Metritis usually occurs postpardum but it is possible mid-pregnancy evidentally. I'm not sure if pyometra is possible in pregnancy but it is highly unlikely.

How does the vet know it is something like this at all instead of normal pregnancy and an infection elsewhere?

jcwuvzu · 02-17-2009, 01:24 PM

I think the vet is just guessing based on the syptoms I described to him about her not eating, discharge having odor sometimes, peeing more than normal, cell count higher. But couldnt most of that be from pregnancy? I sure peed a lot when I was pregnant too. I am glad I asked for ultrasound or we would have dead pups today.

Ellie May · 02-17-2009, 01:34 PM

the white blood cell count may be normal, possibly because the white blood cells are sequestered in the uterus. There may be changes in the urine if toxins released by the bacteria affect the kidneys. This is also what causes increased drinking and urination. Radiographs (X-rays) may reveal the presence of an abnormal enlarged fluid-filled uterus in a bitch that is not pregnant or in early pregnancy. In mid-pregnancy, it is not too easy to distinguish between a uterus filled with pus and a uterus filled with pups. Only in very late pregnancy do the puppies' bones become calcified enough to show up on an X-ray. Ultrasound is a much better diagnostic tool. It can determine the presence of pyometra at any stage of pregnancy. In some cases, swabbing the vagina and making a smear to look for white blood cells or culturing for bacteria may be helpful.
Ingle & Mead's Vizsla -- Pyometra in the Bitch

Canine pyometra is a diestrual disease typical of adult intact bitches whose development is strongly influenced by sequential progestational stimulations (normal diestrus or treatment with progestins) of the uterus. Bitches whelping rarely or never in their lives have a greater chance of developing pyometra with rare or no occurrence of pregnancy. For unknown reasons gestation has a protective action on the canine endometrium, causing pyometra not to develop in areas of the endometrium where placental attachment has occurred (although pyometra can occur in one horn with pregnancy in the opposite horn). During a progestational stimulation the canine endometrium proliferates and starts secreting the so called "uterine milk" while the cervix remains closed and myometrial contractility is inhibited (Table n° 1) . Fluid accumulates into the endometrial glands which then dilate becoming fairly large (up to 0.3-2.0 cm diameter). The endometrial pattern that develops is referred to as cystic endometrial hyperplasia (CEH) which is a prerequisite for the development of pyometra due to the fact that the uterine milk in itself constitutes an inflammatory stimulus as well as an excellent culture media for bacteria which. CEH is a physiological phenomenon whose regression starts during the second half of diestrus. However, with time and number of "open" (non-pregnant) cycles CEH may not entirely disappear from some sections of the endometrium, thus increasing chances of causing endometrial inflammation. Fecal/perineal bacteria (E. coli, Streptococcus spp., Staphylococcus spp., Klebsiella, Proteus and Pseudomonas are the most common ones) often concur to the development of uterine lesions and clinical signs (especially if they cannot be cleared from the uterus prior to onset of the luteal phase), but are not necessary for the clinical manifestation of the disease. E. coli can produce an endotoxin which, upon bacterial death (i.e., following an antibiotic treatment), is released into the uterine lumen and absorbed. The resulting endotoxemia may cause a severe shock reaction and death of the bitch depending on the amount of endotoxin released and on the physical condition of the dog (antibiotics have no effect on concentrations of endotoxins). Clinical signs of endotoxemia include disorientation, hypothermia and shock.
Canine Pyometra - WSAVA 2002

Pyometra and pregnancy can coexist. I would be nervous with the elevated WBC. Did the vet see any thickening of the uterine lining indicating Cystic Endometrial Hyperplasia (the chance that happens before pyometra)?

If it is thought to be pyo, I don't see how she can finish the pregnancy safety. You may want to talk to a veterinarian who specializes in reproduction because it seems that your female could be in danger...

jcwuvzu · 02-17-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Pyometra and pregnancy can coexist. I would be nervous with the elevated WBC. Did the vet see any thickening of the uterine lining indicating Cystic Endometrial Hyperplasia (the chance that happens before pyometra)?

If it is thought to be pyo, I don't see how she can finish the pregnancy safety. You may want to talk to a veterinarian who specializes in reproduction because it seems that your female could be in danger...

The vet only did a quickie ultrasound to verify that she wasnt pregnant (which she is) so I would schedule the spay. It was after hours, he was clearly tired and we really didnt get into a lot of technical scientific stuff. Once I saw that strong heartbeat, which he even said looked good, that was enuf for me. BUT, I do want to err on the side of caution and just know as much as possible in the event I will have to make the tough choice to end the pregnancy to save my girl. Because trust me, she is my very first priority. But I dont want to murder a puppy either. Tough choice.

Ellie May · 02-17-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcwuvzu

The vet only did a quickie ultrasound to verify that she wasnt pregnant (which she is) so I would schedule the spay. It was after hours, he was clearly tired and we really didnt get into a lot of technical scientific stuff. Once I saw that strong heartbeat, which he even said looked good, that was enuf for me. BUT, I do want to err on the side of caution and just know as much as possible in the event I will have to make the tough choice to end the pregnancy to save my girl. Because trust me, she is my very first priority. But I dont want to murder a puppy either. Tough choice.

It sure is but if it is pyo, at the very least, she needs to be medicated. It can't be left go even one day, in my opinion, so certainly not till delivery.

jcwuvzu · 02-17-2009, 03:43 PM

Oh sorry, I thought i said she was on meds. Doc put her on Clavomax. I think he doesnt wanna put her on anything stronger because of the pups. She did NOT have this discharge before the pregnancy. And I have only had her since september, so I dont know what her other heat cycles were like. I will have to call my niece (her previous owner) for details.
You have been great, a wealth of knowledge, thank you so much for taking time to explain so much to me. (A lot of it is confusing but I am trying very hard to get it all down!!)

fannie · 02-17-2009, 04:48 PM

What color is the discharge?

jcwuvzu · 02-17-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fannie

What color is the discharge?

The discharge is a real light yellowish greenish color.

fannie · 02-17-2009, 05:32 PM

This is just my personal opinion, but I would be finding another vet. What is her temp? Any time you see green discharge at all before they have had puppies it's not good. A placenta could be detaching, a puppy may have died, or some other things may be going on. I would definitely have her seen again.

jcwuvzu · 02-17-2009, 05:59 PM

Should I have a more thorough ultrasound? Will they be able to tell if the placentas and pups are ok that way? I know they can see heartbeats, and I did read they can see if there is pyometra, so I imagine placenta isnt too hard to see right?

fannie · 02-17-2009, 06:17 PM

I would definitely have a more thorough ultrasound. I would also have bloodwork run again to see if it's getting any better after being on antibiotics. A Pyometra isn't anything to mess around with. I just went through this with one of my girls. I'm not convinced that your girl has that, but it is definitely possible.

Breny · 02-17-2009, 06:33 PM

YES - they can have pyo and be pregnant. I didn't read all the posts but just wanted to let you know that. (I'm NOT saying thats what your girl has!)

jeanietoo · 02-18-2009, 12:49 PM

I'd sure want a proper diagnosis. If she has pyrometra you will lose the puppies and maybe mom too I would think. Pyro is a life threatening condition

jcwuvzu · 02-18-2009, 01:05 PM

I called vet to set up appt for another consult. Ultrasound, vaginal culture, I dunno. Anything to keep my baby and her babies if possible, alive. Appt not till monday at 3, but will keep a close eye on her for changes. Dont know what else to do. Gonna have to come up with some money for this, but I will sell wedding ring if I have to!!

02-17-2009, 12:54 PM	#1
jcwuvzu Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Mogadore OH USA Posts: 183	Pyometra AND pregnancy possible? Ok, so I know this is gonna get the wonderful breeders on this forum in an uproar, and for that I apologize, but I am already IN the position, and would like some answers to my questions. It was suggested I come over to the breeder sections because you have handled numerous situations, and I am just a mommy of a baby who is pregnant by a dog down the road. They will not be papered, not be sold, but I am trying to do everything in my power to make sure that they and my baby come out of this ok. That being said... My yorkie (still dont believe she is fullbred even with papers) is almost three. 5-25-06 is birthday. She weighed 10 lbs before pregnancy, she is at 42 days and now weighs 11.05. So she is gaining weight, even though I have had a dickens of a time getting her to eat lately. Problem is that she has had a vaginal discharge for the last few weeks, and even tho nose has ALWAYS been like sandpaper and dry, now she has crusty boogers too. She started to act weird saturday bloating up, running around house like a crazy girl and then farted for an hour or so!! So we chalked it up to bad gas pains. Understandable. I took her to vet yesterday just to be on safe side, vet says he thinks pyometra cuz white cell count slightly elevated, and wanted to spay immediately. Didnt think she was preg. I made him run ultrasound. Boom, there we saw it. puppies. Not sure how many. She was wiggling too much. My question is, can she have both puppies AND pyometra? And will it hurt the puppies? She is definitely getting spayed after this. But I dont want to kill the puppies. And I dont wanna lose her either. She seems fine today and he gave her antibiotic. Anyone got a clue? Thanks!! __________________ Love me, love my dogs

02-17-2009, 01:19 PM	#2
Ellie May And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI Posts: 17,928	Metritis in Dogs Metritis usually occurs postpardum but it is possible mid-pregnancy evidentally. I'm not sure if pyometra is possible in pregnancy but it is highly unlikely. How does the vet know it is something like this at all instead of normal pregnancy and an infection elsewhere? __________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶

02-17-2009, 01:24 PM	#3
jcwuvzu Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Mogadore OH USA Posts: 183	I think the vet is just guessing based on the syptoms I described to him about her not eating, discharge having odor sometimes, peeing more than normal, cell count higher. But couldnt most of that be from pregnancy? I sure peed a lot when I was pregnant too. I am glad I asked for ultrasound or we would have dead pups today. __________________ Love me, love my dogs

02-17-2009, 01:34 PM	#4
Ellie May And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI Posts: 17,928	the white blood cell count may be normal, possibly because the white blood cells are sequestered in the uterus. There may be changes in the urine if toxins released by the bacteria affect the kidneys. This is also what causes increased drinking and urination. Radiographs (X-rays) may reveal the presence of an abnormal enlarged fluid-filled uterus in a bitch that is not pregnant or in early pregnancy. In mid-pregnancy, it is not too easy to distinguish between a uterus filled with pus and a uterus filled with pups. Only in very late pregnancy do the puppies' bones become calcified enough to show up on an X-ray. Ultrasound is a much better diagnostic tool. It can determine the presence of pyometra at any stage of pregnancy. In some cases, swabbing the vagina and making a smear to look for white blood cells or culturing for bacteria may be helpful. Ingle & Mead's Vizsla -- Pyometra in the Bitch Canine pyometra is a diestrual disease typical of adult intact bitches whose development is strongly influenced by sequential progestational stimulations (normal diestrus or treatment with progestins) of the uterus. Bitches whelping rarely or never in their lives have a greater chance of developing pyometra with rare or no occurrence of pregnancy. For unknown reasons gestation has a protective action on the canine endometrium, causing pyometra not to develop in areas of the endometrium where placental attachment has occurred (although pyometra can occur in one horn with pregnancy in the opposite horn). During a progestational stimulation the canine endometrium proliferates and starts secreting the so called "uterine milk" while the cervix remains closed and myometrial contractility is inhibited (Table n° 1) . Fluid accumulates into the endometrial glands which then dilate becoming fairly large (up to 0.3-2.0 cm diameter). The endometrial pattern that develops is referred to as cystic endometrial hyperplasia (CEH) which is a prerequisite for the development of pyometra due to the fact that the uterine milk in itself constitutes an inflammatory stimulus as well as an excellent culture media for bacteria which. CEH is a physiological phenomenon whose regression starts during the second half of diestrus. However, with time and number of "open" (non-pregnant) cycles CEH may not entirely disappear from some sections of the endometrium, thus increasing chances of causing endometrial inflammation. Fecal/perineal bacteria (E. coli, Streptococcus spp., Staphylococcus spp., Klebsiella, Proteus and Pseudomonas are the most common ones) often concur to the development of uterine lesions and clinical signs (especially if they cannot be cleared from the uterus prior to onset of the luteal phase), but are not necessary for the clinical manifestation of the disease. E. coli can produce an endotoxin which, upon bacterial death (i.e., following an antibiotic treatment), is released into the uterine lumen and absorbed. The resulting endotoxemia may cause a severe shock reaction and death of the bitch depending on the amount of endotoxin released and on the physical condition of the dog (antibiotics have no effect on concentrations of endotoxins). Clinical signs of endotoxemia include disorientation, hypothermia and shock. Canine Pyometra - WSAVA 2002 Pyometra and pregnancy can coexist. I would be nervous with the elevated WBC. Did the vet see any thickening of the uterine lining indicating Cystic Endometrial Hyperplasia (the chance that happens before pyometra)? If it is thought to be pyo, I don't see how she can finish the pregnancy safety. You may want to talk to a veterinarian who specializes in reproduction because it seems that your female could be in danger... __________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶

02-17-2009, 03:43 PM	#7
jcwuvzu Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Mogadore OH USA Posts: 183	Oh sorry, I thought i said she was on meds. Doc put her on Clavomax. I think he doesnt wanna put her on anything stronger because of the pups. She did NOT have this discharge before the pregnancy. And I have only had her since september, so I dont know what her other heat cycles were like. I will have to call my niece (her previous owner) for details. You have been great, a wealth of knowledge, thank you so much for taking time to explain so much to me. (A lot of it is confusing but I am trying very hard to get it all down!!) __________________ Love me, love my dogs

02-17-2009, 04:48 PM	#8
fannie Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,693	What color is the discharge? __________________ Steph, Mama to 6 skin babies and beautiful yorkies!

02-17-2009, 05:32 PM	#10
fannie Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,693	This is just my personal opinion, but I would be finding another vet. What is her temp? Any time you see green discharge at all before they have had puppies it's not good. A placenta could be detaching, a puppy may have died, or some other things may be going on. I would definitely have her seen again. __________________ Steph, Mama to 6 skin babies and beautiful yorkies!

02-17-2009, 05:59 PM	#11
jcwuvzu Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Mogadore OH USA Posts: 183	Should I have a more thorough ultrasound? Will they be able to tell if the placentas and pups are ok that way? I know they can see heartbeats, and I did read they can see if there is pyometra, so I imagine placenta isnt too hard to see right? __________________ Love me, love my dogs

02-17-2009, 06:17 PM	#12
fannie Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,693	I would definitely have a more thorough ultrasound. I would also have bloodwork run again to see if it's getting any better after being on antibiotics. A Pyometra isn't anything to mess around with. I just went through this with one of my girls. I'm not convinced that your girl has that, but it is definitely possible. __________________ Steph, Mama to 6 skin babies and beautiful yorkies!

02-17-2009, 06:33 PM	#13
Breny My Tiny Treasures Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: . Posts: 11,790 Blog Entries: 3	YES - they can have pyo and be pregnant. I didn't read all the posts but just wanted to let you know that. (I'm NOT saying thats what your girl has!) __________________ http://Brenysbabies.com

02-18-2009, 12:49 PM	#14
jeanietoo YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 783	I'd sure want a proper diagnosis. If she has pyrometra you will lose the puppies and maybe mom too I would think. Pyro is a life threatening condition

02-18-2009, 01:05 PM	#15
jcwuvzu Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Mogadore OH USA Posts: 183	I called vet to set up appt for another consult. Ultrasound, vaginal culture, I dunno. Anything to keep my baby and her babies if possible, alive. Appt not till monday at 3, but will keep a close eye on her for changes. Dont know what else to do. Gonna have to come up with some money for this, but I will sell wedding ring if I have to!! __________________ Love me, love my dogs