European Dog Show in Brno

[Mike1975]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Very interesting thank you. Would you say that these opinions are accepted by the majority? I can see why breeders might be hesitant to start breeding for tail, this sounds even more difficult than I initially thought, but Yorkie breeders seem to love a challenge.

Yorkies in European shows have these variations.
No1 is very hard to find.
Most of them are no2 and no4.
Also you can see a few no5.

It is difficult, but I think it can be done as long as we decide the kind of yorkie that we want. After all no one knows how a yorkie should look like with his full tail. We are all shaping in our minds the picture of the ideal based on what we see and its up to us to decide how this will evolve.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Mike1975

Yorkies in European shows have these variations.
No1 is very hard to find.
Most of them are no2 and no4.
Also you can see a few no5.

It is difficult, but I think it can be done as long as we decide the kind of yorkie that we want. After all no one knows how a yorkie should look like with his full tail. We are all shaping in our minds the picture of the ideal based on what we see and its up to us to decide how this will evolve.

Thanks Mike, you've really taught me a tail of a lot!

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Oh, I thought you didn't dock most of your dogs, I didn't realize you dock some. Did you read Mikes thoughts about his preferences towards certain tails, do you have an opinion on that?

I dock most of my puppies, always have. Mike is right that it will take some time to get the breeding right to consistently get the most pleasing tail length and carriage. All the more reason to be looking ahead, IMO, and find a way to work with this before it gets forced on us.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

I dock most of my puppies, always have. Mike is right that it will take some time to get the breeding right to consistently get the most pleasing tail length and carriage. All the more reason to be looking ahead, IMO, and find a way to work with this before it gets forced on us.

I heartily agree with you on this.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Mike1975

Yorkies in European shows have these variations.
No1 is very hard to find.
Most of them are no2 and no4.
Also you can see a few no5.

It is difficult, but I think it can be done as long as we decide the kind of yorkie that we want. After all no one knows how a yorkie should look like with his full tail. We are all shaping in our minds the picture of the ideal based on what we see and its up to us to decide how this will evolve.

I'm no breeder, love reading your posts and illustrations but don't understand why having dogs with full-length tails is any different than when docking was allowed. Even with docked tails, you can see easily see incorrect tail set, can't you? How did not docking change tail set?

[Mike1975]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thanks Mike, you've really taught me a tail of a lot!

You are welcome Nancy

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I'm no breeder, love reading your posts and illustrations but don't understand why having dogs with full-length tails is any different than when docking was allowed. Even with docked tails, you can see easily see incorrect tail set, can't you? How did not docking change tail set?

Tail set was always a concern and still is. (photo 11)
Seminar on the Yorkshire Terrier

The thing is that the tail is docked a few days after birth.
At that time you can see the tail set and the shape / length, but these usually alter as the dog grows. I know from personal experience from our 2 boys that at least the length and the shape alter.
I am not sure about tail set - maybe a breeder will help here.
I will be happy to know.

According to Pat Hastings the "tail carriage means nothing" in the first evaluation done at 8 weeks
Cedes Of Change: Pat Hastings: Structure In Action Seminar Review

So, it was difficult to determine how the tail's shape and length will eventually develop beyond the docked point. After all it wasn't a concern.

Now, breeders are trying to combine all 3 of these traits. When they eventually saw all the possible combinations, they found out that a so called "gay" undocked tail wasn't so bad after all. On the contrary this kind of tail set gave a more compact look and a pleasant to the eye outline balance.

The problem in my personal opinion and point of view - as a fancier and exhibitor - arises when the tail carriage is even more than 90 degrees, allowing the tail to drop on the back. (No4 or No5 on the drawing).

This gives a different look, a bit strange to my eyes.

I would be happy to know your opinion

[Mike1975]

I forgot to mention another important factor that contributes to the carriage of tail. That is temperament. It is impossible to have a dog as described in the standard with its tail held a little higher than the level of the back.
A dog with a terrier temperament, alert and spirited would have its tail held like a flag.

Another factor that skipped my mind, is the "plenty of hair" requirement. Often these hairs add confusion in the actual length of the tail. Also the extra weight of these hairs force the tail to bend and touch the back.

In my mind the ideal type of tail is that of Juliana (aka ROYAL PRECIOUS JP'S F4 JULIANA, bred by Yoshiko Obana and handled by Sergio Amien).
But that is of course personal preference.

[Mike1975]

A very interesting article was written in Yorkie Club Magazine #5 May 2006, by Hugo Ibanez-Hornung, entitled A Tale of Tails

Yorky Club Magazine - United by passion for Yorkies.

I would like to quote some interesting thoughts

“Since when have breeders, exhibitors or judges adhered to the Standard?” interjects Mark Burns, breeder/judge (UK) and adds: “Disregard for the Standard detail is an option when an improvement to a dog’s “look” can be achieved”. Well point taken. Bernice Unden, the veteran breeder, “Debonaire” (Sweden) echoes Mark, “A 12:00 o’clock tail set makes a Yorkie look more compact, better balanced and also shows spirit. It is easy to understand the disregard for the Standard just because of this”.

In many parameters of dog breeding, the breeder may use his own discretion and artistic eye to achieve the balance he prefers while keeping the type and balance prescribed in the Standard.
Let’s take another journey – a controversial one - no doubt. Let’s hear what some of our successful and experienced breeders have to say. Hopefully, they will help us solve the puzzle, if not, indeed a mystery.
And a mystery is. In the UK, as one stated before, Yorkies are shown with the tails pushed down. It is quite intriguing. No one seems to have a clue as to why or when this fad began.

“Yorkies in England have been depicted with both gay tails and above the level of the top line since 1873. Arthur Wardler and Mrs. Foster’s dogs have been shown with tails up or above the level” says Mrs. Joan Gordon “Wildweir”.
One is left to speculate. Perhaps, breeders of modern times thought that pushing the tails down would give the awareness, the perception of compactness – short back. “Perhaps, in the UK we adhered to the tail carriage to promote and enhance the compact square shape”, says Mark Burns.
In other words creating the same illusion as the gay tail.

Back to America, Lat. Am. And Continental Europe: “Tail carried a little higher than the level of the back”. Ancient history. “I don’t feel it will ever be reversed (gay tails), because this feature has become what breeders look for: in turn, judges have learned (USA, Canada & Lat. Am.) to look for this too” Doreen Hubbard “Yorkboro”.
The writer remembers, back in the 70’s, there was an Am. Yorkie special winning big, Ch. Trivar’s Sud Sipper. “Suds” most memorable characteristics were his super gay tail and perfect top line. I thought, then, that “Suds” was the precursor, the pioneer of gay tails. Not so, tells me the living Yorkie encyclopedia, Mrs. Gordon. “gay tails have been around forever with emphasis on level top lines it became more prevalent and with the number of Am. Yorkies being shown it became more visible”.

Many breeders in America feel that the Standard should be modified. Here to echo that feeling is Doreen: “Tail carried off the spine at 45 degrees to 12:00 o’clock high. The revised standard should also make a distinction between tail set and tail carriage”.
Brenda Aloff, author of the wonderful book “Canine Body Language” states “If the tail is held erect and rigid, that is certainly dominant (Terrier character)”. Further, she adds that it is important to leave the tail half on “so communication abilities are significant because he still signals most of his intentions.”
This bring us to the length of the tail. Certainly tails have generally been lengthening in the past decade. One used to see tiny little buttons year ago. These are never seen anymore.
One can be sure that breeders were not thinking “communication”. They were thinking balance, symmetry. In other words, a balance between the neck and the tail. It is a feature that is bound to stay.
Perhaps this feature will help us all to sort of reach a compromise, a bridge of goodwill, if you like, between us who “dock” and our European friends of “no dock”.

So here we are. It is what it is. In the real world one has to deal with realities, and the reality is that we have to put up with docked and undocked tails.
Again, soft-pedaling back to undocked tails. As it was mentioned before the FCI has already changed the Standard to regulate undocked tails. Here it is again “Plenty of hair, darker in blue colour that the rest of the body, especially at the end of the tail. Carried a little higher than the level of the back. As straight as possible. Length to give a well balanced appearance.”
Frankly, the writer does not see much difference than before. Breed Standards are like the Bible. Everyone interprets the same printed word a bit differently and sometimes very emotionally.

“Carried little higher than the level of the back” Here we are again, docked – undocked, upright position, 12:00 o’clock is here to stay. The problem one foresees is that gay tails are part of the dog’s temperament and part of a technique of how to dock tails, so tails will be gay; obviously with undocked tails one has no choice. Undocked tails won’t be able to control this aspect, unless the tail is naturally gay.

“As straight as possible”, does it mean that the tail should look like a flag pole? The reality is that one sees undocked tails being carried like a Shih Tzu or a Maltese, some like a Cavalier and even some like a Beagle or an Afghan. The breeder has no control. Some tails appear to be very thin with not much hair, others are thick with density of hair almost like a plume. And finally the length of the tails are some short (good thing), others medium and some long.
It seems it would be very difficult to have a Standard with so many variables. One has to assume that ultimately it will be up to the judge to determine which dog personifies the Standard best.

Some one said “there is more to a dog then the tail”. Of course, there is. No more to say that color and texture makes a Yorkie. One can not forget character, silhouette (tail), head and expression, movement and color and texture. All these elements constitute type and all are equally valuable.

[Mike1975]

Here is an interesting comparison of our Sunny's tail and development.

At the left picture, Sunny is 8 weeks old, at the right 10+ months of age.
In both pictures he stands in a full alert position.
When he was born - as all yorkie puppies - his tail was straight and short. If his breeder docked his tail then, she couldn't possibly know its development.

Even at 8 weeks of age the difference was already apparent.
Could anyone possibly imagine looking at the left picture, that the tail will develop like it actually did in proportion with the rest of his body?
The shape remained almost the same, but what it really changed is the length in proportion (hair included).
The tail set remained the same. (From what I have read the croup often alters)

Is the tail carried a little higher than the level of his back?
Well, it depends on his alertness. When in full alert or when trotting around the house or in the ring, of course not.
But thats the whole point.
We want a confident little gentleman with strong temperament, like a terrier should have.

Maybe not as strong - as he has - but thats another story...

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by Mike1975

I forgot to mention another important factor that contributes to the carriage of tail. That is temperament. It is impossible to have a dog as described in the standard with its tail held a little higher than the level of the back.
A dog with a terrier temperament, alert and spirited would have its tail held like a flag.

Another factor that skipped my mind, is the "plenty of hair" requirement. Often these hairs add confusion in the actual length of the tail. Also the extra weight of these hairs force the tail to bend and touch the back.

In my mind the ideal type of tail is that of Juliana (aka ROYAL PRECIOUS JP'S F4 JULIANA, bred by Yoshiko Obana and handled by Sergio Amien).
But that is of course personal preference.

It's interesting to see you chose Juliana as the ideal tail type. She is a very big winner in Europe, if not the world, but I believe her home country to be Japan. What is the breed standard for the Yorkshire Terrier's tail in Japan, and how well did Juliana show there? I wonder how well she'd be received here, in the US.
I'm also interested in the absence of US bred Yorkies on the international scene.

[Mike1975]

Yes, her home country is Japan. I dont know how she did there.
Japan's Kennel club is a member of FCI so the FCI standard is in effect.

I chose Juliana because in my opinion her tail shows an as natural as possible continuation of a docked tail.
Its as straight as possible and its length gives a well balanced appearance. I wouldn't mind if it was a bit shorter though.
As for the carriage, its not carried a little higher than the level of the back - as the standard requires - but its not carried at 90 degrees either. Its somewhere in between.
So the outline is not disturbed, it looks balanced, at least in my eyes and according to my perception of the ideal.

As for US and also Canadian bred Yorkies, they are not absent at least in OUR minds and in OUR pedigrees.
They have influenced the international scene a great deal.
As a matter o fact many many European dogs have American or Canadian bred Yorkies in their pedigrees.
Unfortunately they can't participate in Shows held under FCI rules with their docked tails.

Anyway
We all belong to the same family.
The yorkie family!

[magicgenie]

Thanks, Mike, I agree US and Canadian Yorkies are indeed very prominent in European pedigrees. I was referring to their absence from competition in Europe. I didn't know Japan was FCI. Here we have AKC but abroad there are federations of kennel clubs and I get confused about how they're grouped.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

Thanks, Mike, I agree US and Canadian Yorkies are indeed very prominent in European pedigrees. I was referring to their absence from competition in Europe. I didn't know Japan was FCI. Here we have AKC but abroad there are federations of kennel clubs and I get confused about how they're grouped.

It will change, when enough USA breeders decide to not dock tails. This will allow them to show in Europe. Although mind you that is a very expensive proposition for a North American breeder to assume.


Rigair - my Canadian Breeder actually came from Latvia, and her original breeding partner is still there. They are frequently transporting show dogs back n forth, to show in Europe and in Canada / USA. And yes they travel in cabin with the dogs, or have one of their network of breeder friends do so with the dog.


They keep some dogs tails intact. Still here the preference is for docked tails in the show ring, although Canadians were one of the first to push the USA show boundaries and actually finish Yorkies with an undocked tail. You see it is not a DQ in the USA.


I once looked into showing at Crufts, it is not a straightforward and easy thing to do. Although I dearly want to go one day myself, I have resigned myself to the fact that the $$$ to show there is not something I can justify.

[gemy]

Mike is a very knowledgeable stud dog owner, and I really appreciate his sharing of the European scene. And all of his historical references!


In terms of selection or not of a YT based on tail length and shape, I think it is way too early days for breeders to reduce the breeding population for a tail that is *too long*, carried gaily, or curved excessively. Of course all those adjectives are subjective.


That is the least IMO concern of the YT breeder. They have more worrisome things. Such as Teeth, bite and jaw, and the propensity of the YT to carry multiple baby teeth, and to have bad teeth! Well at least here in North America. These are basically hereditary issues.


Then there is the organ and systemic health of the Yorkie. Good grief 21 or so genetic diseases that the Yorkie is susceptible to! Fund the research into LS Leggs Perthes, etc.


The Yorkie Standard would be improved upon if certain objective measurements are described and detailed. Height, weight, and length ratios for example. Head shape and associated width length etc. Just exactly what do you mean by a *short back*? What is the ideal layback of the shoulders? Hip angulations and stifle?


And let us not forget temperament.