a question about coloring rules in the us

[dorab01]

Hi everybody

I am totally new here. I live in europe, norway and I breed yorkshires. I am sorry if I write some spelling misstakes its been a long time ago since I have been writing english. So we here in europe have had a couple of discussions about coloring, and the roumer goes that it is a lot of coat coloring in us. That you almost can't find anybody who doesn't color the coat. Just as seen here where it is shown as something natural and what you just have to do:

YouTube - Grooming the Yorkshire Terrier -...

YouTube - Grooming the Yorkshire Terrier -...

Or is that not considered coloring??
What is youre oppinion about this??

[bjh]

There have been many threads on this forum about this subject. I think most would agree that coloring or dying a yorkie is unethical but there are some that do it. Some just call it 'enhancing' the coat color and see nothing wrong with it. Regardness, it is something hard to prove and no one will publicly admit to doing it. I would not say that most people do it. I know many yorkies that are shown naturally with no color enhancement. Personally I feel that more focus should be placed on soundness and coat texture rather than if the coat is the right shade of steel blue.

[bjh]

I forgot to welcome you to Yorkie Talk. You can learn a lot about yorkies on on this website. Do you show your yorkies?

[boopster]

I don't know enough about showing dogs to talk about coloring, but I do want to welcome you to YT. And I will bet that your English is far better than any of our Norwegian, so no need to apologize.

And Edvard Grieg is my all-time favorite composer. Go Norway!

[Nancy1999]

According to the AKC rules of conformation/showing:

RULES DISMISSALS
[R] Lameness, Excusal: It is the judge’s sole
responsibility to determine lameness. It is not subject
to protest. The judge shall excuse a lame dog
from the ring, withhold awards from that dog and
mark the judge’s book “excused, lame.” (Rules,
Chapter 11, Section 8b).
[R] Change in Appearance, Disqualification A dog
which has been changed in appearance by artificial
means, except as specified in the standard for its
breed, may not compete at any show and is to be disqualified
(Rules, Chapter 11, Section 8).
A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial
means if it has been subjected to any type of procedure
that has the effect of obscuring, disguising or
eliminating any congenital or hereditary abnormality
or any undesirable characteristic, or anything that
improves a dog’s natural appearance, temperament,
bite or gait.In addition, the insertion of any type of apparatus in
the mouth of a dog disqualifies that dog from competition
in dog shows and subjects anyone who exhibits,
or causes to be exhibited, such dog to disciplinary
action. http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/REJ999.pdf

[jencar98]

Welcome to Yorkietalk!

I don't know what percentage of yorkies shown in the US are dyed but do know many are "enhanced" with hair dye. In fact, some of the well known show breeders and handlers secretly take pride in their "dye" colors.

Also, I don't know specifically about Norway but am aware many European yorkie show breeders practice dying yorkie coats. So, it is not a "cheat" exclusive to the US at all.

My opinion? I really don't care as long as everyone gets to dye their dogs. I don't understand how the truth can be so well known amongst show people, and accepted within the show community even though it is a disqualification? Where are the "ethics", we are told are so important to look for in a show breeder when the entire yorkie show community condones this?

[dorab01]

Hi everybody and thanks for a nice welcome Yes I do show my yorkies I have five to boys and three girls. My dogs are after the well known of new deal lines. If you have heard of them. I know that they have sold a couple of dogs to the us. I am going to post some pictures here from my dogs if you want to see.

We have had a little trouble with people coming from Russia with dyed dogs very visibly dyed almost looking purple. And the judge put them up as winners. I don't understand how its possible for the judge not to see that thats an artificial color. And I really don't like to loose to a purple dog

But about the links above what do you think? Is that considered dye or color enhancer? And if all this is forbidden how is it possible that all these people like pure paws, Chris Christensen and all the other product seller, sell these product on a dog show stand. I just thought about this on a dog show here on Saturday, when the people see this on a stand and by it they must think its legal to use. Or? Is it clarified enough that thats actually wrong?

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by dorab01

Hi everybody and thanks for a nice welcome Yes I do show my yorkies I have five to boys and three girls. My dogs are after the well known of new deal lines. If you have heard of them. I know that they have sold a couple of dogs to the us. I am going to post some pictures here from my dogs if you want to see.

We have had a little trouble with people coming from Russia with dyed dogs very visibly dyed almost looking purple. And the judge put them up as winners. I don't understand how its possible for the judge not to see that thats an artificial color. And I really don't like to loose to a purple dog

But about the links above what do you think? Is that considered dye or color enhancer? And if all this is forbidden how is it possible that all these people like pure paws, Chris Christensen and all the other product seller, sell these product on a dog show stand. I just thought about this on a dog show here on Saturday, when the people see this on a stand and by it they must think its legal to use. Or? Is it clarified enough that thats actually wrong?

First off....I would love to see pictures of your dogs!

I've seen the videos you've linked to before. You can give whichever name you like - enhancing or dying, either one it's still altering the color of the dog and should be a disqualification.

Dog show vendors know the color enhancing products are not allowed but also know exhibitors are going to buy the products anyway...and, they are there to make money.....

Also, don't be fooled.....exhibitors (here in the US) know enhancing dogs is not allowed, whether or not those products are sold at the shows. But, they also know the chances of them being disqualified for using the products are slim to none.

Sadly, I'm sure this deceptive practice will continue until someone with some clout speaks out.

I'm sure losing to a purple dog was a slap in the face. But, if a purple dog was put up over the others that is a bad judging problem too!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

According to the AKC rules of conformation/showing:

A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial
means if it has been subjected to any type of procedure
that has the effect of obscuring, disguising or
eliminating any congenital or hereditary abnormality
or any undesirable characteristic, or anything that
improves a dog’s natural appearance, temperament,
bite or gait.

Interesting, I just reread again this paragraph, "anything that improves a dog's natural appearance. Strictly speaking shampooing and conditioning your dog would qualify under improvement. After all a dirty dog doesn't look too pretty. Then we can step down a bit, and look at shampoos where the ingredients are made to provide shine, and or to thicken the hair, conditioners that can help tame frizzy locks, the list could go on and on. Then you have color enhancing shampoos, and or conditioners. All this before you get to color washes, rinses, and outright dyes.

Temperament: umm I wonder is such herbal supplements as Rescue Remedy, or Stress Relief would qualify?

This regulation seems absurdly broad, and almost impossible to enforce. For Example it can be argued that good food, and supplements, improves a dog's "natural" appearance.

In terms of the question asked by the poster, that video, certainly looks like a type of temporary color was applied to the coat.

I'm not sure how one would rewrite the regulation, to reduce the unwieldy breadth of it.

IMO anything that is so broad as to be ridiculous, sets the stage for that regulation to be ignored.

Practically speaking; I feel that if you don't want exhibitors to dye the hair say so: the use of products that artifically change or enhance the color of a dog's coat is expressively not allowed, specifically but not limited to dyes, rinses, bleaches, permanent or semi permanent color.

[lingenieuse]

I am sure that several Yorkies have color enhancement,but as far as I am concerned that is a minor problem.We should be more concerned with breeding sound structure and happy temperaments instead,the parts of the Yorkie that actually have an effect on his life.I would rather see a level topline with parallel movement with abit of hair color...

[Brooklynn]

I think this is another subject that has been talked to death as well LOL....while coloring, enhancing, altering the color is not allowed it's done and is gonna be done just like anything else.

What I have seen more and more lately is horrible toplines, bad rears, bad fronts and even incorrect coat color/texture being shown in the ring and winning. I feel that sends a wrong message to a newbie thinking about entering the wonderful world of dog showing. NO, not me getting beat it's in the classes going towards the championship. I wish the judges wouldn't just give the dog the win if it's not good. I wish there would be more of with holding of ribbons instead of just giving them the win.
I had a lady talk to me one weekend and it was her first dog show and she could even see the ones that won shouldn't have and she asked me why that was, all I could say was it's just another day at the dog show and the judges opinion. Nothing much one can do but go with the flow.
It's sad how many people really do not know what good movement is, what a good front and rear are and what is the correct coat texture/color is. I don't mind a lighter dog with a good coat texture or a darker dog with a good coat texture. I guess what I'm saying is I'm getting alittle tired of "kennel blindness" or one just not seeing what is NOT correct.
Ok, now I'm done venting LOL

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I think this is another subject that has been talked to death as well LOL....while coloring, enhancing, altering the color is not allowed it's done and is gonna be done just like anything else.

What I have seen more and more lately is horrible toplines, bad rears, bad fronts and even incorrect coat color/texture being shown in the ring and winning. I feel that sends a wrong message to a newbie thinking about entering the wonderful world of dog showing. NO, not me getting beat it's in the classes going towards the championship. I wish the judges wouldn't just give the dog the win if it's not good. I wish there would be more of with holding of ribbons instead of just giving them the win.
I had a lady talk to me one weekend and it was her first dog show and she could even see the ones that won shouldn't have and she asked me why that was, all I could say was it's just another day at the dog show and the judges opinion. Nothing much one can do but go with the flow.
It's sad how many people really do not know what good movement is, what a good front and rear are and what is the correct coat texture/color is. I don't mind a lighter dog with a good coat texture or a darker dog with a good coat texture. I guess what I'm saying is I'm getting alittle tired of "kennel blindness" or one just not seeing what is NOT correct.
Ok, now I'm done venting LOL

But where is the education of judges? Where are the videotapes for judges education on good movement for the Yorkie? Sigh

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I think this is another subject that has been talked to death as well LOL....while coloring, enhancing, altering the color is not allowed it's done and is gonna be done just like anything else.

What I have seen more and more lately is horrible toplines, bad rears, bad fronts and even incorrect coat color/texture being shown in the ring and winning. I feel that sends a wrong message to a newbie thinking about entering the wonderful world of dog showing. NO, not me getting beat it's in the classes going towards the championship. I wish the judges wouldn't just give the dog the win if it's not good. I wish there would be more of with holding of ribbons instead of just giving them the win.
I had a lady talk to me one weekend and it was her first dog show and she could even see the ones that won shouldn't have and she asked me why that was, all I could say was it's just another day at the dog show and the judges opinion. Nothing much one can do but go with the flow.
It's sad how many people really do not know what good movement is, what a good front and rear are and what is the correct coat texture/color is. I don't mind a lighter dog with a good coat texture or a darker dog with a good coat texture. I guess what I'm saying is I'm getting alittle tired of "kennel blindness" or one just not seeing what is NOT correct.
Ok, now I'm done venting LOL

Just like anything else? What does that mean? Even though altering/enhancing/coloring is against the rules, bc so many do this, it is somehow okay or accepted? Why have the rule at all then? Why not just accept, yorkie showing is the beauty contest it has become. After all, you and Gemy both are talking about how judges miss more important attributes than coloring....perhaps they are not missing it, as much as they are ignoring the color jobs, along with ignoring bad structure, toplines, movement and knees, only to put up what are the most aesthetically pleasing dogs (which are not always the true, best representation of the breed) instead of the dog that truly closest meets the standard

[dorab01]

But have I understood correctly that the standard is different in the us and Europe?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Just like anything else? What does that mean? Even though altering/enhancing/coloring is against the rules, bc so many do this, it is somehow okay or accepted? Why have the rule at all then? Why not just accept, yorkie showing is the beauty contest it has become. After all, you and Gemy both are talking about how judges miss more important attributes than coloring....perhaps they are not missing it, as much as they are ignoring the color jobs, along with ignoring bad structure, toplines, movement and knees, only to put up what are the most aesthetically pleasing dogs (which are not always the true, best representation of the breed) instead of the dog that truly closest meets the standard

Anything else is just what it means, put two and two together...

I guess some of the judges see things differently than I do, and I'm stating things from my perspective and my interputation of what I know to be a good rear/front movement and good topline. I love a pretty dog but that doesn't make it the best representation of the breed. I saw a GORGEOUS yorkie in Vegas stacked on the floor, talk about a beautiful picture that is until I saw it's movement and then I made an ugly face because the rear movement was atrousious (misspelled Im sure). But again, that is what I saw from the sidelines, no the dog didn't win that day but did the next but it's points were taken away due to being in the wrong class...
I've said before, I'd rather be beat by a "good" dye job with good structure and movement than be beaten by a yorkie with a horrible topline, cripped rear ect...and I've been beaten by both and got more ticked off by the bad structure and movement than the one I knew was dyed. Never said it was right to dye but I can live with someone doing that than be beaten by a bad structured dog that should be in a loving pet home.
I can only do what I know is right and strive for the best I can.