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Old 04-05-2008, 01:38 PM   #1
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Permission to cross post from one of my list groups.

Just for discussion; my goal is not to start a debate. I'm interested in hearing other's views... and not saying I totally agree OR disagree. Make sense?



-------------------

by DIANE KLUMB
published in Show Site Magazine September 2002

Hi. My name is Diane, and I am a Breeder.
I am good at it, and I am damned proud of it.
I bought my first show dog in 1969 and whelped my first litter in April, 1975.

I have, since that inauspicious beginning, in partnership with my long suffering husband and a few good friends produced a few dozen champions, some top producers, a handful of Specials, and a lot of superb close-working grouse dogs and well loved companions. We kept a fair number over the years and sold the rest. (NOTE: I said sold, not 'placed'...we'll address that particular idiocy later.) We owned a kennel for many years, and trained gun dogs. This involved the killing of untold numbers of game birds, all of which we ate. I have more recipes for pheasant, grouse and woodcock than you can shake a stick at. We showed our hunting dogs and hunted over our show dogs.

I do not believe for a minute that the whelping or sale of a single one of those purebred dogs is in any way responsible for the euthanasia of a million unwanted dogs a year at shelters around the country, any more than I believed that cleaning my plate when I was a kid could in any way benefit all the poor starving children in Africa, no matter how much the nuns or my mother tried to make me feel guilty about it.

I couldn't see the logic then and I can't see it now (although today I would maybe refrain from suggesting that we bundle up Sister Edlita's meatloaf and actually send it to the poor starving children in Africa.)

Look at it this way:
If I go to a bookstore specifically to buy Matt Ridley's The Human Genome (which, as it happens, I recently did) and that bookstore does not have it, I will do one of two things - I will order it, or I will go to another bookstore that does carry it and purchase it there. What I will NOT do is take the same money and buy Martha Stewart's latest cookbook instead, because this is not what I want.

Guilt without logic is dangerous.

Show breeders are simply not responsible for the millions of unplanned and unwanted mongrels produced in this country. Period. So don't let anyone make you feel guilty about it.

I do not understand why the top horse farms in this country are not in the least embarrassed by the fact they make a lot of money doing it, yet in the world of dogs if one is to be respected, one is to lose one's ass financially. That is a load of horse sh**, pure and simple, yet we accept it meekly and without question.

Why is that?
Basic economic theory suggests that if we are not turning a profit, one of two things is wrong - we suffer from poor management, or we are not asking enough for our product to cover our production costs.

What are our costs?
Well, if we are breeding good dogs, besides basic food and veterinary costs we ought to be adding in the costs of showing these animals, and advertising, and health testing, which are not expenses incurred by the high volume breeders (puppy mills).

OK, so we have much higher costs involved in producing our healthier, sounder animals. Yet the average pet shop puppy sells for about the same as the average well bred pet from show stock, and often they sell for much more.

What's wrong with this picture?
We're stupid that's what's wrong.

Q. Why does a Jaguar sell for ten times more than a Hundai?
A. Because it's worth more and everyone knows it.

"And everyone knows it" is the key phrase here, folks. But somehow no one knows our puppies are worth more and we're embarrassed to tell them.

Why is that?
The difference between the sale price of a multi million dollar stallion and what he's worth as horsemeat on any given day at a livestock auction is quality. Yet we cannot address this issue in dogs because we are embarrassed to talk about money and dogs in the same breath.

Why is that?
OK, I'll tell you, because someone has to come out and say this sooner or later.

There is a war going on.

Unlike most wars, however, this one actually has three sides rather than two.

We have Show breeders, who are producing a small number of purebred dogs.
We have High-Volume breeders who are producing a large number of purebred dogs.
We have Animal Rights Activists, who believe that neither group has the right to breed or even own purebred dogs, much less make a profit at it.
While the first group is busy trying to get rid of the second group because they don't like the way they breed dogs (which by the way ain't gonna happen as long as the American public wants purebred dogs and the first group won't produce them) the third group is winning the war.

You think I'm making this up?

Then how come we've started saying we "placed" our puppies instead of sold them?

We talk about the new "adoptive homes" instead of their new owners.

What's next? Instead of price of a puppy, we'll charge an "adoption fee?"

What's wrong with this new language?

I'll tell you -

We didn't come up with it, the Animal Rights Activists did - we are just stupid enough to use it.

We are stupid because it's based on the premise that we have no right to own dogs.

It is based on the premise that dog ownership is the moral equivalent of human slavery, and that the species Homo sapien has no right to use any other species for any purpose whatsoever, be it food, clothing, medical research, recreation or involuntary companionship.

Now, I don't know about you, but my politically incorrect opinion is:

Our species did not spend the last million years clawing our way to the top of the food chain to eat tofu. The stuff tastes like s**t no matter how you cook it, and there is absolutely no sense pretending otherwise.

Zoology 101:

Animals who kill other animals for their primary food source are called predators. Their eyes are generally on the front of their skulls, they have teeth designed to tear flesh from bone, and a digestive system designed to digest meat (like us). Animals that live primarily off vegetation are called herbivores. They have better peripheral vision, flat teeth for grinding, and the most efficient of them have multiple stomachs, which we do not (like cows). And lastly, Animals who live primarily off what other have killed (carrion) are called scavengers (think about that one long and hard.)

Man like the canis, is a pack-hunting predator, which is probably why we get along so well. (If that fact bothers you, get over it.)

How did we get to the top of the food chain?

We are the most intelligent and efficient pack-hunters ever to suck oxygen from the atmosphere, that's how.

We are certainly intelligent enough to understand that maintaining that position on this small planet depends on responsible stewardship, not guilt.

And we are so damned efficient that we can support a tremendous number of scavengers in our midst. Like the Animal Rights Activists, for instance.

(Me, I think we should dump the whole lot of them buck naked in the Boundary Waters and see how well this egalitarian philosophy of theirs plays out, but that's probably too politically incorrect for anybody else to consider. Sigh.)

So what do we do?

Well, to begin with we need to regain control. The first way we do this is with language, which is the tool they have been using on us.

These people who don't want us to "own" dogs are likening themselves to Abolitionists. That's a fallacy, unless you accept the premise that dogs are really little humans in fur coats, which frankly is an insult to a species that has never waged war on the basis of religious differences.

No, the group they really resemble is the Prohibitionists - remember them? A particularly annoying bunch of zealots who firmly believed and somehow managed to convince our duly elected representatives that alcohol was a bad thing, and any beverage containing it should be illegal in these United States of America. Very few Americans actually agreed with this, by the way, but by the time Congress got its head out of its collective you-know-what, a whole new industry had developed - Organized Crime.

We look back at that whole debacle now and wonder how anything that stupid and wrongheaded ever happened.

Well, boys and girls, in the inimitable words of the great Yogi Berra: Its's Déjà vu all over again. The Prohibitionists are back.

And once again, we are buying it. Amazing.

Last edited by ButterflyYorkie; 04-05-2008 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:55 PM   #2
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.....
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Purchasing from backyard breeders, pet shops, and puppymills perpetuates the suffering of other dogs.
Educate yourself and buy from reputable breeders or rescue.

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Old 04-05-2008, 02:04 PM   #3
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Here's what I think about it...

Anyone that breeds contributes to the pet population...that is a fact...if dogs are born, they contribute to the pet population. Anytime someone buys from a breeder instead of adopting from a shelter, another dog will be euthanized. Therefore, ALL breeders do contribute to the millions of dogs being euthanized each year. Does that mean that I think EVERYONE should stop breeding? No! However, I believe a breeder better have a very good reason for doing so. They better be breeding wonderful examples of the breed in conformation, temperment, and health or be breeding dogs to suit a specific purpose such as with working dogs.

So far as breeding for profit: I do not think that profit is a good reason for breeding. Dogs should never be used as a business. However, if a breeder is breeding for the right reasons and doing things the right way and are still able to make a profit, that's fine. I just don't think profit should be a top goal when choosing to breed dogs.

I really don't see an issue with termonology such as "placed" or "sold". I think this author is pretty paranoid about animal rights groups...PETA is never going to convince the government and millions of Americans that it is wrong to own pets. Most people that support PETA don't even realize that's PETA's goal in mind...people are never NOT going to own pets.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:40 PM   #4
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I dont really think that all breeders contribute to the plight of euthanization. Because if John Q Public is looking for a certain breed of dog they are not going to look in the shelter to find one, they will buy from a breeder. The breeder demands spay/neuter and take the dog back if it doesnt work out. The first two puppies are placed/sold to loving homes and the contract is followed to a T. But the third puppy placed/sold is sold to JOhn Q Public#3. John Q Public#3 starts to feel a little greedy, or needs to "make the money back" for his purchase, or feels that every female "needs to experience" motherhood, or "the children need to experience" the joys of birthing, or for some other selfish/stupid reason, the dog will be bred, be it AKC, Apri, Acr,etc. Then John Q Public#3 makes a tidy sum of $$ and thinks,"that was easy"!! So, then he/she breeds again, and again and again. No contract, no health guarantee, etc. I think this is where the "breeders" contribute to the problem. And the cycle begins. The people who bought from JohnQ public #3 also start their little "breeding" program. The cycle continues.

This is really frustrating isnt it!!!
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist View Post
I dont really think that all breeders contribute to the plight of euthanization. Because if John Q Public is looking for a certain breed of dog they are not going to look in the shelter to find one, they will buy from a breeder. The breeder demands spay/neuter and take the dog back if it doesnt work out. The first two puppies are placed/sold to loving homes and the contract is followed to a T. But the third puppy placed/sold is sold to JOhn Q Public#3. John Q Public#3 starts to feel a little greedy, or needs to "make the money back" for his purchase, or feels that every female "needs to experience" motherhood, or "the children need to experience" the joys of birthing, or for some other selfish/stupid reason, the dog will be bred, be it AKC, Apri, Acr,etc. Then John Q Public#3 makes a tidy sum of $$ and thinks,"that was easy"!! So, then he/she breeds again, and again and again. No contract, no health guarantee, etc. I think this is where the "breeders" contribute to the problem. And the cycle begins. The people who bought from JohnQ public #3 also start their little "breeding" program. The cycle continues.

This is really frustrating isnt it!!!
Yes, it is.
I'm feeling rather "verklempt" myself... Discuss/verklempt (that's a joke, some may get some may not and it IS Saturday )

Both you and MyfairLacy have good points.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:07 PM   #6
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One thing that I do agree with in the article is that I don't believe anyone should feel they have to change their language to suit the opinions of others...for example the AR extremists.

Also, I do believe that everyone who breeds is responsible for adding to the pet population. However I do not believe that every single one of them is responsible for millions of dogs ending up in shelters as the extemists do.
There are dogs being imported from Mexico to be placed in shelters in certain areas that are not meeting their "qouta" for adoptions. So they import these dogs, without giving them proper care just to meet their monetary needs. I find that to be sickening and completely insane in our society.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:38 PM   #7
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Well there is a lot I agree with in that article and some I think is a bit too harsh, but sometimes you have to be harsh to get your point across. I do not breed for money and really find it hard to believe that anyone who is so passionate about their breed or their horses...stiving for the best of the best is really in it for the money! I do not have a problem with paying a breeder for their years of hard work...endless nights of no sleep, constant worry, hours of grooming, care, training, research and back breaking effort that is put into dogs from good breeders! As most of you know there is a big difference among breeders and some deserve the money they get if they can make a profit and others do not deserve to even own a dog.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:04 PM   #8
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Yes, the author is a little harsh in some areas. But she is blunt and to the point.. which I appreciate in people in general.

I do not think her point about profit was that she breeds for, or promotes anyone who only breeds for money. I believe her point was there are times when profit is gained when it comes to some responsible breeders, and they shouldn't be ashamed to admit if they are doing all they can to produce a quality dog. I know from experience that many good breeders put alot of their profit right back into the care and maintinence of their dogs, allowing them to be able to continue on the same path. I see nothing wrong with that.

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Old 04-05-2008, 06:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ButterflyYorkie View Post
Yes, the author is a little harsh in some areas. But she is blunt and to the point.. which I appreciate in people in general.

I do not think her point about profit was that she breeds for, or promotes anyone who only breeds for money. I believe her point was there are times when profit is gained when it comes to some responsible breeders, and they shouldn't be ashamed to admit if they are doing all they can to produce a quality dog. I know from experience that many good breeders put alot of their profit right back into the care and maintinence of their dogs, allowing them to be able to continue on the same path. I see nothing wrong with that.

It wouldn't allow me enough edit time...

I wanted to add show expenses, advertising, vet care, grooming products and supplies as a part of the responsible breeders "care and maintinence" I referred to. I probably generalized that statement too much at first and should have elaborated more. There are some of you who know exactly what I am saying. I am positive of that.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:35 PM   #10
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Very interesting! I agree with most of what the author says! Thanks for sharing.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:52 PM   #11
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When you aquire your show stock in the beginning...you are investing in your breed. You continue from that day forward to invest, over and over: Maintinence, and I'm using that as a broad spectrum word that involves so many different things from a to z, and I think that the majority of us that are going to really understand this thread know what that all involves without having to keep repeating. High volume and mills do not have those investments. (Expenses)
So if and when your end result comes after all your hard work..."profit" can mean a different thing to two different people. But it doesn't mean it isn't there [at times]

I have been in my breed for over 12 years now. I've not done everything perfectly in the past, and I can admit it. I have a totally different way of thinking than I did 6 years ago. I will be the first to admit that I finally understood and agree that breeding for profit only is wrong!
I was once the girl who simply admired that yorkie in the calender and had to have one. Then I made mistakes. Oh yesss. I'm also not ashamed of them! I learned from them and thank God I did. Over time my way of thinking changed drastically. My love for the breed most of all. If you ask me point blank, I will be the first to tell you what I think about "back yard" breeding for money, breeding because "its nice to have puppies" ect ect ect, (we've heard them all) isn't something I agree with.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:54 PM   #12
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Very interesting article...wish dog shows paid what horse shows pay LOL...I use to ride horses and made money at it as in winning. Good horses cost a lot of money (good horses that is) as do my "good" show dogs. I don't make money because I don't breed but one litter a year. I sell my pet quality not place or adopt out plain and simple but do I make money, again, nope especially since the expense of showing my dogs cost A LOT of money
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Brooklynn View Post
Very interesting article...wish dog shows paid what horse shows pay LOL...I use to ride horses and made money at it as in winning. Good horses cost a lot of money (good horses that is)
I'm from a show horse family too! (Quarter horses- western and english) Even did a little barrell racing, lol.. I know what you mean.
My sister did really well as a teenager and came home alot with money and saddles. By the time our family had a really good program going, my Dad passed and our horse dreams with him.

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Old 04-05-2008, 07:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ButterflyYorkie View Post
I'm from a show horse family too! (Quarter horses- western and english) Even did a little barrell racing, lol.. I know what you mean.
My sister did really well as a teenager and came home alot with money and saddles. By the time our family had a really good program going, my Dad passed and our horse dreams with him.
I use to barrel race for years and I should have stayed with that more money to be made LOL and not the politics LOL..but I love my yorkies and I love showing so I guess I'll stay with the dog shows for awhile.
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:11 PM   #15
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I use to barrel race for years and I should have stayed with that more money to be made LOL and not the politics LOL..but I love my yorkies and I love showing so I guess I'll stay with the dog shows for awhile.
We went to a show in NJ last year that had a horse show on one side of the grounds and dog show on other. I was having a hard time trying to go back and forth to watch portions of both, LOL
That's cool that you barrel raced! What a rush. My body wouldn't cooperate with doing that now if you PAID me, ha ha
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