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Old 02-25-2008, 06:05 PM   #1
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Default question about showing and show quality

After reading another post about pedigrees and champions in their background, I have a theoretical question.

Say you have a dog that has champions in it's 4th and/or 5th generation...... Is it possible for a dog that hasn't had recent champions to still be of quality to show? I guess I am thinking that IF the dogs that were born to a champion pair were sold and not ever shown, they still could produce show quality dogs?

When you go into the show ring with a dog that was NOT born to a champion, how does that affect the dog being judged? Can a dog stand on it's own without being champion sired?

I mean I have seen some beautiful dogs that are not champions... if they were to be shown to try to obtain a championship is the fact that they are not champion sired going to adversely hurt them?

I know to most people a dog may "look" good and that doesn't neccesarilly mean they are good. I know that topline, structure, coat quality, the way the dog carries itself, etc all are factors, but does lack of championships in the 2 or 3rd generation eliminate that dog altogether?

The reason I am asking is because it occured to me that most people who show thier dogs do not sell a dog that is show quality or they would show it themselves (I think). So if someone wanted to try showing how would they obtain a show hopeful?
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:24 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Sunnie View Post
After reading another post about pedigrees and champions in their background, I have a theoretical question.

Say you have a dog that has champions in it's 4th and/or 5th generation...... Is it possible for a dog that hasn't had recent champions to still be of quality to show? I guess I am thinking that IF the dogs that were born to a champion pair were sold and not ever shown, they still could produce show quality dogs?

When you go into the show ring with a dog that was NOT born to a champion, how does that affect the dog being judged? Can a dog stand on it's own without being champion sired?

I mean I have seen some beautiful dogs that are not champions... if they were to be shown to try to obtain a championship is the fact that they are not champion sired going to adversely hurt them?

I know to most people a dog may "look" good and that doesn't neccesarilly mean they are good. I know that topline, structure, coat quality, the way the dog carries itself, etc all are factors, but does lack of championships in the 2 or 3rd generation eliminate that dog altogether?

The reason I am asking is because it occured to me that most people who show thier dogs do not sell a dog that is show quality or they would show it themselves (I think). So if someone wanted to try showing how would they obtain a show hopeful?
Great question! I would have to say a show dog doesn't have to be championed sired to become a champion but it's desired. If a dog has more than 3 faults I wouldn't put them in the ring but it may not hurt to use as a stud or bitch if the dog or bitch had no health issues but had great structure and movement and put together. Just because a dog has a bad bite that can be bred out and then you bring back in a dog with a good bite (using this as an example)
If you want to show I would attend shows, watch the yorkies and find the type you like, study pedigrees, find a mentor, join a yorkie club in your area.
Most show breeders breed for themselves and yes they will place a dog into a show home but they have to know you and know your intentions. Say they have a nice male and that show breeder doesn't need a male and they have a suitable show home then they will place him in a show home with strict contracts. I personally don't sell show dogs because I haven't been showing but about 4 1/2 years and I'm still not confident in placing a show dog. I also do not have that many show dogs and when I do breed I want my next one for the ring and you won't have every pup in that particular litter be show quality. But again, go to shows get acquainted with yorkie show breeders.
I know I didn't answer all the questions my brain is fried tonight LOL...but at least I hope I helped some.
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:52 PM   #3
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Default pedigree

My first champion was from one of my non-champion studs. The judge had no clue what the pedigree looks like..it is the dog who must be superior and most of the time it takes a close champion line...no champions until the 4th or 5th gen makes it extremely difficult and rare. I have not seen it..but then again, I do not know each and every champion who has lived and died.

I have heard it said...if you have enough money and time a good handler can finish anything, but why pour money into a dog you would not want to breed? When I first started, I had a male who was pet quality...a handler put points on him..then I took off my "blinders" and had a really good look at him and asked a few others...I took him out of the ring. I recognized in my eagerness to compete and get established, I was short changing myself...and doing the breed no favors.
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:52 PM   #4
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At dog shows the judge is judging the dog and not the dog's pedigree so it would not matter if your dog is champion sired or not. A dog can have no champions in their background and still be shown and could still win if they were a good representive of the breed. A lady I know that shows Bulldogs said she knew of a Bulldog once that had no champions in his pedigree and he became a champion but none of his offspring were ever show quality.
Yorkies are one of the most difficult breeds to show. It takes lots of hard work and patience to grow a show coat. You have to start with dog that has a true silky coat, proper conformation and movement. Reputable show breeders sell their show quality dogs under a very strict contract where the breeders stay on as co-owners until the dog becomes a champion. You also have to agree that if you are unable to finish the dog after a certain amount of time then you have to agree to put the dog with a professional handler.

Finding a breeder to sell you a show quality dog might take a little time but it can be done. Most show breeders do not want to sell to a person that already has a house full of pet quality Yorkies...that is a red flag for them. If a person is truly interested in showing you would need to spay and neuter your pets and try to start by getting a male Yorkie to show. A good show quality Yorkie should be at least 6 months old and would cost at least $2500. Some of your smaller show breeders that are not as reputable might sell you a 12 week old show prospect male for $1500 to $2000 without a show contract but they would not guarantee them to turn out showable and that would be a risky deal. You just need to do your homework and go to some shows to see if that is what you really want to do. Actually if you have enough money you don't have to show the dog yourself. Many folks just buy expensive dogs and hire a handler to finish the dog for them.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:37 PM   #5
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At dog shows the judge is judging the dog and not the dog's pedigree so it would not matter if your dog is champion sired or not. A dog can have no champions in their background and still be shown and could still win if they were a good representive of the breed. A lady I know that shows Bulldogs said she knew of a Bulldog once that had no champions in his pedigree and he became a champion but none of his offspring were ever show quality.
Yorkies are one of the most difficult breeds to show. It takes lots of hard work and patience to grow a show coat. You have to start with dog that has a true silky coat, proper conformation and movement. Reputable show breeders sell their show quality dogs under a very strict contract where the breeders stay on as co-owners until the dog becomes a champion. You also have to agree that if you are unable to finish the dog after a certain amount of time then you have to agree to put the dog with a professional handler.

Finding a breeder to sell you a show quality dog might take a little time but it can be done. Most show breeders do not want to sell to a person that already has a house full of pet quality Yorkies...that is a red flag for them. If a person is truly interested in showing you would need to spay and neuter your pets and try to start by getting a male Yorkie to show. A good show quality Yorkie should be at least 6 months old and would cost at least $2500. Some of your smaller show breeders that are not as reputable might sell you a 12 week old show prospect male for $1500 to $2000 without a show contract but they would not guarantee them to turn out showable and that would be a risky deal. You just need to do your homework and go to some shows to see if that is what you really want to do. Actually if you have enough money you don't have to show the dog yourself. Many folks just buy expensive dogs and hire a handler to finish the dog for them.
GREAT ANSWERS everyone! I do have another question regarding the statement in red above. I understand why you would want any pet quality yorkies to be spayed or nuetered. No one would want to entrust a show quality yorkie to someone that could possibly use it to breed to a pet quality yorkie. The question I have is why a MALE? Is there a reason why you would want to start showing with a male yorkie rather than a female?

Thanks again you guys for some great answers.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:15 PM   #6
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GREAT ANSWERS everyone! I do have another question regarding the statement in red above. I understand why you would want any pet quality yorkies to be spayed or nuetered. No one would want to entrust a show quality yorkie to someone that could possibly use it to breed to a pet quality yorkie. The question I have is why a MALE? Is there a reason why you would want to start showing with a male yorkie rather than a female?

Thanks again you guys for some great answers.
Males are generally easier to grow coat on and they hold their color better. In general, unless you have an exceptional Yorkie, it takes up to two years or longer to grow a good show coat. Most show males are 18 months to 2 1/2 years old before they are in good enough coat to win their majors. You need two major wins to become a champion. Females usually come in heat around 10 months and often females get lighter in color after each heat cycle so you might get a female with nice steel blue at 1 year of age but by the time she is in full coat and ready to compete she might be too light. But probably the main reason for starting with a male is that most show breeders would not ever sell a quality bitch to someone they do not know and trust.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:14 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Sunnie View Post
After reading another post about pedigrees and champions in their background, I have a theoretical question.

Say you have a dog that has champions in it's 4th and/or 5th generation...... Is it possible for a dog that hasn't had recent champions to still be of quality to show? I guess I am thinking that IF the dogs that were born to a champion pair were sold and not ever shown, they still could produce show quality dogs?

When you go into the show ring with a dog that was NOT born to a champion, how does that affect the dog being judged? Can a dog stand on it's own without being champion sired?

I mean I have seen some beautiful dogs that are not champions... if they were to be shown to try to obtain a championship is the fact that they are not champion sired going to adversely hurt them?

I know to most people a dog may "look" good and that doesn't neccesarilly mean they are good. I know that topline, structure, coat quality, the way the dog carries itself, etc all are factors, but does lack of championships in the 2 or 3rd generation eliminate that dog altogether?

The reason I am asking is because it occured to me that most people who show thier dogs do not sell a dog that is show quality or they would show it themselves (I think). So if someone wanted to try showing how would they obtain a show hopeful?
I am sensing that you want to know if you someone can buy a pet quality and that dog end up being show quality. Yes, it can happen. It's rare but it can happen.

There was a German Shepard Dog in the Group at Westminster that was sold as a pet. The dog was found living his life chained to a tree and was rescued. There was also a pet Suluki that had a great career.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:10 PM   #8
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I am sensing that you want to know if you someone can buy a pet quality and that dog end up being show quality. Yes, it can happen. It's rare but it can happen.

There was a German Shepard Dog in the Group at Westminster that was sold as a pet. The dog was found living his life chained to a tree and was rescued. There was also a pet Suluki that had a great career.

Or you purchase what a breeder claimed to be show quality that turns out to be a pet quality at best. You trust a person and feeling less experienced you fall. Never buy an "outside of your own" for your program before 6 months of age. I learned this the hard way.

I remember the german shepard dog you are speaking of.

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Old 02-26-2008, 12:28 AM   #9
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No it's not really any of those reasons. I already have 6 dogs (5 yorkies and a poodle mix) All are spayed or nuetered except one of my girls who I think is a great representation of the breed, She does have champion lines but they are 4th generation. Actually her grandfather I think just got his championship recently as well. I don't think I could show her because I don't live in an area where they have a yorkie club. They do have a small dog fancier's club here that used to sponser dog shows here at least once a year, but they cancelled this year and they seem to be gravitating more towards herding dogs. I am basically looking down the road a ways because I really would love to show at some time. I love this breed and would love to experience showing with the best possible representation. I own both the mom and dad to the one I am speaking of. Neither were sold as "show quality" but both have champion lines. When we bought the mom, the breeder told me she was planning to keep her back to possibly show her, but they were getting ready to move into a new home and she didn't have the time right then. That is why she sold her. The parents to the mom were both well on thier way to thier championships. I don't know that they have gotten them yet. Both of mine are now fixed after the mom had a c-section with this litter. but that being said, the little girl who is now 10 months old is gorgeous. I don't know if she is close enough to the standard to show, but I am thinking of getting her evaluated. My vet who used to raise yorkies keeps telling me that she is nice enough to show. So basically it is just a theoretical question at this time.
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Old 02-26-2008, 05:51 AM   #10
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We would love to see pictures of your girl. I also meant to add last night that if you start with a show quality male and prove yourself in the ring then the breeder of your male would most likely be willing to sell you a suitable female to breed with your male if you were interesting in establishing your own show line, or they would recommend you to some other reputable breeder. Iwolfe is correct in saying if you are looking for a real show quality dog, he needs to be at least 6 months old. There are many, many so called show breeders that advertise show quality puppies but they are selling them at 12 weeks and there is no way of knowing at that age how the puppy will turn out. You need to buy from a show breeder that is currently active in the show ring and has champion dogs that they have actually produced themselves. I hope that one day you are able to get your dream dog. You are doing the right thing by asking questions now and leaning all that you can.

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Old 02-26-2008, 12:55 PM   #11
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Do you know the only Yorkie to win Westminster, C.D. Higgins was sold by the breeder as a pet, then his new owner decided to show him...of course, he was not from a pet pedigree?
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:15 PM   #12
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We would love to see pictures of your girl. I also meant to add last night that if you start with a show quality male and prove yourself in the ring then the breeder of your male would most likely be willing to sell you a suitable female to breed with your male if you were interesting in establishing your own show line, or they would recommend you to some other reputable breeder. Iwolfe is correct in saying if you are looking for a real show quality dog, he needs to be at least 6 months old. There are many, many so called show breeders that advertise show quality puppies but they are selling them at 12 weeks and there is no way of knowing at that age how the puppy will turn out. You need to buy from a show breeder that is currently active in the show ring and has champion dogs that they have actually produced themselves. I hope that one day you are able to get your dream dog. You are doing the right thing by asking questions now and leaning all that you can.
I just took some picture of my girl. This is Tiny Rainbow Treasure and she is MY treasure even if she isn't to someone else. lol
These were all taken today. She wasn't wanting to cooperate in stacking today
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:04 PM   #13
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Your little girl is beautiful. Is she just 10 months old? She sure has a lot of coat. You might consider having her evaluated by some show breeders in your area. If she has sound movement and nice conformation she might do well in the show ring.
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Old 02-26-2008, 04:51 PM   #14
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Thank you.. she is about 10 1/2 months old (born April 9, 2007) She does have a LOT of coat and it is so silky.. Her color hasn't broke as much as I would have liked yet, but hopefully it will. Her mom is a darkie and finally at 3 1/2 she is breaking into a beautiful steel blue. When I look at Rainbow's part along her back her skin is blue, so I think that is a good sign. I am going to the show in Bakersfield in March and hopefully can have her evaluated there.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:27 PM   #15
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Do you know the only Yorkie to win Westminster, C.D. Higgins was sold by the breeder as a pet, then his new owner decided to show him...of course, he was not from a pet pedigree?
Pat, Where did you learn that he was sold as a pet. I know that mrs. Clark carefully inbred to create him, breeding Toy Clown (out of Wildweir's Pomp 'N' Circumstance) to Miss Debutante and than to their daughter, granddaughter and great granddaughter, gradually building a prepotency of Toy Clown's genes in both the sire and dam of Higgens. It's incredible that he could have almost missed the ring after all those years of work! In his 5 generation pedigree he had 14 champions on his sire's side alone. Of course most of them were the same dogs. There were 16 champions on his dam's side in his 5 generation pedigree.
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