[News] Is Pet Overpopulation Really Killing Our Cats and Dogs?

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Hahaha...Cindy, you know I'm not picking on. I really didn't find much to disagree with and wasn't really looking to. I know this can be a charged subject, but we should all feel free to express ourselves.

I think it's great that you've donated to help the animals in Haiti and I wouldn't be against bringing some here for adoption due to the situation there. I am against seeking to import dogs for shelter adoptions in the normal course of things, however. I know first-hand how the animals suffer during a disaster as I live in the impact area of Hurricane Katrina. It really was staggering....animals just wandering the streets with a lost look in their eyes, and not just strays. I saw quite a few obviously well cared for pure breds wandering aimlessly. If it wasn't for outside groups, many more animals would have suffered and it was bad enough as it was. So, hats off to you for remembering the Haitian animals.

Gosh, I missed quite a few posts due to company coming over. After reading through them, I'll just comment that even though the HSUS and PETA are certainly the most well-funded groups, people shouldn't look to them for solutions. I don't think their missions are to get down to the nuts and bolts of solving this problem. My own opinion is that both these groups are squandering money for uses other than what was intended by many donors. Actually, the truth may be that many local shelters aren't doing all they can with THEIR resources and I think that deserves more attention. To focus on PETA and HSUS really sidetracks from what is a local issue multiplied many times over nationwide. Also, local in the sense that every region has unique circumstances and national in the sense that there are common problems with common solutions.

Back to the disaster scenario. I saw what can be done after Katrina when shelters co-operate and network. It's amazing what can be done when people put their minds to it. Maybe the solutions are already in front of our faces but we only put them to use when a disaster strikes. The rest of the time it seems like business as usual...which overall is a failure.

I REALLY need to get Winograd's books, but from what I've read from him so far leads me to think he's on the right track. His is a voice that needs to be heard.

Do me a favor ... get on Best Friends website and start looking through many parts of it. I really like them the best and they were the first ones on site for Hurrican Katrina and the last ones to leave. I have purchased a couple of books they had published in regards to what happened down there...and laws were changed because people died staying with their pets. Now rescue has to take the cute little white dog (do you remember him) that had to be tossed aside or the national guard wouldn't let them on the bus...broke my heart and they never found the dog but the laws were changed. He had to be sacrafices for us to know what was really going on..I still am haunted by him.

Best friends also has a wonderful campus for all the animals and I think they do just a fabulous job of also trying to change some of the laws.

I think everyone should read his books along with the books from Best Friends (they had 2 published)...because I think for everyone to get their arms around many of the issues..first we have to know what they are (thanks to PETA they are great about this) and then to the organizations that save lives like Best Friends. ...Not one group has all the answers because it is just to big...then people need to get their arms around their local and state laws to see what is really going on and be willing to write letters and call the politicians. When people vote I believe they should know what lobbyists are in the pockets of these people because behind all of it is the US government and USDA...along with a whole bunch of other special interest groups...medical research...and $$$ coming into states and cities because of these animals.

I was just reading today on PETA's website that Utah will no longer require their shelters to sell the animals to research organizations...I wonder how many people in Utah knew their little pets were being shipped off to be used in a research lab.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA): The animal rights organization

I get Best Friends Magazine which really educates in a kind way how to be kinder to animals and the value they have in our lives.

http://www.bestfriends.org/

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, I guess most of my posts did end up being about the Group Who Must Not Be Named. I'll stop that.

However, with regard to HSUS, apparently, most shelters follow their written guidelines, so I do think they are a piece of this puzzle.

Winograd lives in SF (so do I), so I will be looking more into if this is a valid movement, and if so, if I can help on the local level. For some reason, I feel like I can really get my teeth into this issue and maybe make a real difference.

One of the things that confused me is that Winograd said that SF was on its way to becoming the first no-kill community in the US -- and then, he's very vague on why it did not, except to blame his usual targets. I guess one thing that makes me nervous it that he basically wants an unfunded mandate on shelter care (California's a big fan of those!). Basically, we make it a law that you cannot euthanize a healthy animal. I would love to see that happen in practice, but I don't know that I believe it should be a law, unless we explicitly say how we plan to pay for it.

I am not sure your statement is true about the guidelines for HSUS..maybe their shelters but is that true about city shelters...I don't know.. So many different organizations involved and you have to know the players...some are owned by the city, some private, some kill, some don't...

You are right ... we also have to look at the financial side of all of this and what is the quality of life these animals could have...because frankly they are very few shelters I would want to have animals live in...they are pretty nasty. I love what Best Friends setup and think many places could learn from them.

[livingdustmops]

What I would really like to see is that pets are in demand and we do not enought to go around and then all of this wouldn't matter...each animal would be loved and we wouldn't have to euthanize the surplus.

[Woogie Man]

I'm like you in that I need to get involved more in the workings of our local shelter. I hate to run on so much without a real grip on the subject. I've been kind of fired up about this whole thing since our local no-kill shelter operator was arrested and charged with animal cruelty a couple of weeks ago. I know you posted on the thread I started, but it's located in the Animal Protection forum for anyone interested.

Are you sure that most shelters operate under HSUS guidelines? From what I've heard, there is no affiliation. If there is, why such disparity in results?
I see HSUS mostly as a lobby group but do know of some boots on the ground things they've done. It would be nice if there was an umbrella group to set standards and to help in networking between shelters. Maybe there is....I just don't see it in the results.

Maybe a bureaucratic mentality has set in and it's all about the shelters perpetuating themselves forever. If so, this will be a tough nut to crack. I don't think we'll ever see a zero kill nationwide, but certainly some of these shelters could do better. I'd love to see a day when there are fewer shelters needed but they almost seem like a growth industry.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I love what Best Friends setup and think many places could learn from them.

I'm not familiar with them but do think the best shelters should serve as a model for others. Too bad there isn't a system (or is there?) for shelters to be rated for their humaneness and efficiency. The good shelters need to be recognized and the bad ones need the light of day put on them.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'm not familiar with them but do think the best shelters should serve as a model for others. Too bad there isn't a system (or is there?) for shelters to be rated for their humaneness and efficiency. The good shelters need to be recognized and the bad ones need the light of day put on them.

Actually you watched them almost every day in New Orleans...they just didn't toot their horn like many organizations do..They helped setup the large area where all the animals were brought to and then decided which animals needed urgent care ...right down the line.They are a sanctury in Utah that was started by a bunch of close friends (I think they were hippies) in AZ and then moved to Utah.

YOu might have seen them on animal planet for dog town...but they work with many different kinds of animals...

No to my knowledge they also have to operate under the guidelines of the USDA and then you have to see what the city/state has mandated.

[Woogie Man]

Ooops..sorry, Cindy, I missed your entire earlier post about Best Friends. Thanks, I will look into them. I really wasn't aware at the time of what was going on....really just what I saw. We were living primitive for a while at that time and were out of touch with a lot of things going on right around us. It was only later that we got a bigger picture.

The animals I referred to earlier were ones I saw personally. There were likely the pets of evacuees whose homes was destroyed. Many people evacuated but couldn't take their pets and left them home with extra food and water, thinking they'd be back soon. That didn't happen and many didn't have houses to return to. Our situation was different than New Orleans. They got flooded and we got blown away. I live only 1/3 mile from the beachfront and it was like an atom bomb had gone off here. We all did what we could but the situation was horrible and it was hard enough just to get through the days. I fostered a pug and 2 cats for a neighbor for a month due to them being unable to return. It wasn't much but was the best i could do at that time. We are very thankful for those that came in from other areas to assist.

[livingdustmops]

Some were flown out of New Orleans to Phoenix right away and I saw some of them. In some cases you could tell the animals had never been really taken care of even before the flood...It was awful.

I can't imagine living through all of that like you did and you helped...It isn't a matter of how much but you stepped forward and your friends/neighbors animals didn't suffer through the tragic time.

I was glued to the tv during the whole thing and I am sure I saw more than even you did...it was just hearbreaking. I still wonder what happened to all of the $$$ and how it really was handed out...We will never know...

It took a number of days but the news finally did start reporting on other areas and we could see whole blocks wipped out...

Glad you made it through..

c

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Ooops..sorry, Cindy, I missed your entire earlier post about Best Friends. Thanks, I will look into them. I really wasn't aware at the time of what was going on....really just what I saw. We were living primitive for a while at that time and were out of touch with a lot of things going on right around us. It was only later that we got a bigger picture.

The animals I referred to earlier were ones I saw personally. There were likely the pets of evacuees whose homes was destroyed. Many people evacuated but couldn't take their pets and left them home with extra food and water, thinking they'd be back soon. That didn't happen and many didn't have houses to return to. Our situation was different than New Orleans. They got flooded and we got blown away. I live only 1/3 mile from the beachfront and it was like an atom bomb had gone off here. We all did what we could but the situation was horrible and it was hard enough just to get through the days. I fostered a pug and 2 cats for a neighbor for a month due to them being unable to return. It wasn't much but was the best i could do at that time. We are very thankful for those that came in from other areas to assist.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Actually you watched them almost every day in New Orleans...they just didn't toot their horn like many organizations do..They helped setup the large area where all the animals were brought to and then decided which animals needed urgent care ...right down the line.They are a sanctury in Utah that was started by a bunch of close friends (I think they were hippies) in AZ and then moved to Utah.

Forgive me, I'm running kind of slow tonight. I'm answering out of sequence..hope it's not too confusing.

I didn't see what was going on in New Orleans. We had our own fish to fry over here (I'm 70 miles east of N.O.). We had no power or water for weeks and Katrina blessed us with a sun room where our living room was . We stayed during the storm due to our animals, like so many others. We had the Yorkies, an elderly wolf hybrid, a cat and several birds and just wouldn't leave them. They all handled it pretty well. It was kind of funny...Floyd, our Moluccan cockatoo, stayed fairly calm when the ceiling came down around his cage, but he absolutely freaked when the power went off a few minutes later. If you've ever heard an M2 shreik, you know just how loud it got. We were scrambling to light candles around his cage just so he would shut up LOL. In the middle of the house falling in, we got a good laugh out of that. Floyd...he's such a big baby.

[livingdustmops]

I am a blond and I am old but I figured it out and that is why I posted I saw more than you did of the whole New Orleans thing...and then finally they moved to the rest of the country side and we saw just how awful it really was...

My friend has one of those birds and lordy you need headphones...I am sure if they were trying to find you to dig you out the bird would tell them exactly where he was..lol.

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Forgive me, I'm running kind of slow tonight. I'm answering out of sequence..hope it's not too confusing.

I didn't see what was going on in New Orleans. We had our own fish to fry over here (I'm 70 miles east of N.O.). We had no power or water for weeks and Katrina blessed us with a sun room where our living room was . We stayed during the storm due to our animals, like so many others. We had the Yorkies, an elderly wolf hybrid, a cat and several birds and just wouldn't leave them. They all handled it pretty well. It was kind of funny...Floyd, our Moluccan cockatoo, stayed fairly calm when the ceiling came down around his cage, but he absolutely freaked when the power went off a few minutes later. If you've ever heard an M2 shreik, you know just how loud it got. We were scrambling to light candles around his cage just so he would shut up LOL. In the middle of the house falling in, we got a good laugh out of that. Floyd...he's such a big baby.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I am a blond and I am old but I figured it out and that is why I posted I saw more than you did of the whole New Orleans thing...and then finally they moved to the rest of the country side and we saw just how awful it really was...

My friend has one of those birds and lordy you need headphones...I am sure if they were trying to find you to dig you out the bird would tell them exactly where he was..lol.

Thanks for following the winding path my brain sometimes takes. Yeah, it was awful everywhere at that time. That was the second really major hurricane I went through. Back in '69, we stayed for Camille and she had 220mph winds. Very scary.

Floyd is a great bird but I've been looking into a sanctuary for him. He is a wild caught bird that I blindly bought about 8 years ago. He is only semi-tame and will never be domesticated. I provide the best I can for him but I really want to see him be among his own kind again. He is only about 25 years old so he still has about 80+ years ahead of him. I've had a complete change of perspective (about captive birds) since getting Floyd. We're talking about shelters here but the whole captive bird business is at least equally disturbing.

[livingdustmops]

The other woman who I did Yorkie rescue with when I lived in Tucson was very involved with the whole issue of the birds and has 5 of them. She used to sit on the board for the following organization but now just handles their database.

The Oasis


What I know is from her and you are right...just more people making $$$ off of the birds in this case.

I am trying to think of the movie that came out about this whole issue...It was filmed in San Francisco maybe???? The birds of avalon?????

I don't understand why any of these animals have to be captured and live this kind of life...

[Woogie Man]

In the case of Floyd and his kind, a great many of them were caught for breeding. No one really cared to make pets of them. There was a lot of this going on in the late '80s before importing them was outlawed. Floyd is missing 2 toes due to his capture. Up until I got him, he was kept in a small cage with a female. He was completely wild when I got him but has since become semi-tame. I can hand feed him some things but he won't let me handle him.

I've had several people try to get him from me but I won't let him go. Why should I send him from one house, where he is at least comfortable, to another house where everything is strange to him?

I have found a sanctuary in Washington state that seems to be very much what I'm looking for. I just can't see a tropical bird living out his life there, though. And then there's the issue of getting him there. I'm looking for something closer and more down South.

I do feel some guilt about getting him but I try to look at the whole picture. I took him from what I guess would be considered a 'bird mill' to an environment where he is at least content. Also, in the case of Floyd, there really is no home for him to go to. His natural habitat has been largely destroyed due to logging and he would most likely be dead if he weren't caught in the first place. I just owe it to him to give him a proper life now.

P.S. I really am against the wholesale logging of habitat in many developing countries. It's the west's desire for exotic woods that drives this and Floyd is just another uncounted victim of this practice. Also, buying things (mostly baked goods) with palm oil in them fuels the market that is leading to the slaughter of the Orangutan. We have to remember that our everyday decisions can have huge consequences.

[Woogie Man]

Thanks for the link to The Oasis, Cindy...they sound like someone I should talk to. Maybe they could steer me in the right direction.

[livingdustmops]

Keep it up and you to will be a member of "you know who"..haha because yes we are destroying the animal kingdom with our greed and with no thoughts of what is really going on.

Yes, you should call the Oasis and talk to them..I have one of their newsletter somewhere on my desk but I can't find it right now. This sanctuary is about an hour from Tucson so it is warm. The birds at the Oasis are there forever...they are not adopted out.

I can see the woman who runs it...but for the life of me I cannot remember her name...boy I hate when that happens.

I am sure I will wake up in the middle of the night and go bingo..her name is..

I do know that Best Friends also has some birds...