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Old 03-25-2016, 09:15 AM   #1
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Default Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots (A MUST READ from Dogs Naturally!)

This is truly *such* an informative, thorough, and well-written article; so if you have any interest whatsoever in vaccines - you MUST read this article.

Here is just one quote that's just amazing to finally see, as we knew this kind of info had been coming down the pipeline for years now:
After more than 40 years of testing immunity in thousands of dogs, veterinary immunologist Dr Ronald Schultz has come to the following conclusion:

Only one dose of the modified-live canine core vaccine, when administered at 16 weeks or older, will provide long lasting (many years to a lifetime) immunity in a very high percentage of animals.
If that doesn't compel you to read it, I'm not sure what would !

Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots from Dogs Naturally magazine.

I will say though, I'm in disagreement w/ the author on the real value of titers. They really don't tell you much of anything at all and are quite costly too.
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Old 03-25-2016, 07:53 PM   #2
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I found a published research article by Dr. Schultz on vaccination protocols for puppies, but it's behind a paywall. I'm parking this comment here to remind me to look it up on Monday when I'm back at the university .
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:42 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by pstinard View Post
I found a published research article by Dr. Schultz on vaccination protocols for puppies, but it's behind a paywall. I'm parking this comment here to remind me to look it up on Monday when I'm back at the university .


How wonderful it is to have a "key" that enables us access to really important work/research that is very often behind a paywall where we can not get to it....thank you for this effort/contribution!!!
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:28 PM   #4
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Most interesting! Will do more and would be interested in further study

My understanding of titers kind of goes like this :
High numbers are good, but low numbers don't necessary mean no immunity.
Also, numbers vary with different labs.

Would like to hear from others.
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:51 PM   #5
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Here's an older summary of Dr. Schultz's recommendations from the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine:

Schultz: Dog vaccines may not be necessary
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by yorkiemini View Post
Most interesting! Will do more and would be interested in further study

My understanding of titers kind of goes like this :
High numbers are good, but low numbers don't necessary mean no immunity.
Also, numbers vary with different labs.

Would like to hear from others.
Hi. There is a lot of information about the use and usefulness of titers in the most recent American Animal Hospital Association vaccination guidelines here: https://www.aaha.org/public_document...guidelines.pdf

I haven't had much time to look it over, but this is a highly reputable source of information used by US veterinarians. I only wish that their tables weren't printed sideways.

Titers are expensive, and aren't for every dog, but they are useful for dogs that have known adverse reactions to vaccines that you don't want to vaccinate unless absolutely necessary. And there are some dogs that don't develop the appropriate immune response to vaccines, and titers can help identify those dogs.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:25 PM   #7
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Dr. Schultz also coauthored the international vaccination protocols for dogs and cats. This also includes detailed descriptions of the diseases for which vaccinations exist. WARNING!!! There are photos of diseased animals and internal organs in this PDF. Not for the faint of heart.

http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/f...15%20FINAL.pdf
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Old 03-28-2016, 07:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by yorkiemini View Post
Most interesting! Will do more and would be interested in further study

My understanding of titers kind of goes like this :
High numbers are good, but low numbers don't necessary mean no immunity.
Also, numbers vary with different labs.

Would like to hear from others.
You can have a high titer number, but have no cellular immunity. You can also have a low or absent titer number, but have cellular immunity.

Titers are only capable of measuring humoral immunity, which in and of itself isn't meaningful enough as you can see by the previous 2 sentences.
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Old 03-28-2016, 08:54 AM   #9
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I highly recommend the PDF article on international vaccination standards co-authored by Dr. Schultz that I linked above (with the warning about graphic photos). It probably includes everything I'm going to summarize below, and it's not behind a paywall. Here is my summary of the article co-authored by Dr. Schultz that I mentioned in my first post to this thread. This article also reaches the same conclusions as the Dogs Naturally article posted by Wylie's Mom. The core vaccinations typically give immunity lasting for at least 7 years in most dogs. However, more studies are needed to determine whether recommendations should be changed.

CANINE VACCINATION, by Craig E. Greene, DVM, MS, Ronald D. Schultz, PhD, and Richard B. Ford, DVM, MS. VETERINARY CLINICS OF NORTH AMERICA: SMALL ANIMAL PRACTICE. VOLUME 31 NUMBER 3 MAY 2001

[..]

Annual administration of polyvalent vaccine implies that each vaccine antigen, whether of bacterial or viral origin, in each polyvalent product induces the same degree of immunity for the same duration in every patient. Immunologically, this is irrational. Depending on the vaccine and based on the results of controlled challenge studies, dogs derive protective immunity that persists for as little as a few months to as long as 7 or more years. Convenience rather than science seems to be the driving force behind conventional recommendations listed on vaccine "labels" (product inserts). [..] Studies to establish the maximum duration of immunity that would meet USDA guidelines are not economically feasible.

The recommendation that virtually all canine vaccines be administered annually to adult dogs has been embraced by the veterinary profession for many years. Interestingly, however, for most vaccines administered to dogs today, there are no scientific studies at all establishing a 12-month duration of immunity. Vaccine efficacy studies for most vaccines in use today challenged vaccinates just 3 to 4 weeks after the last inoculation. The paradigm that adult dogs and cats require annual boosters for all the commonly administered vaccines is being challenged. We simply cannot continue to arbitrarily administer vaccines without regard for the number and type of vaccine antigens in the product and without realistic consideration of the risk of infection facing the individual animal.

CANINE DISTEMPER

[..] In puppies, distemper vaccination is performed at 3- to 4-week intervals, with the earliest inoculation being given when the puppy is 6 to 8 weeks of age. Most distemper vaccines used in North America today overcome maternal immunity by the time puppies are 12 weeks of age. Vaccination in puppies is usually continued until they reach 16 weeks of age. Dogs older than 12 weeks of age at the time they are presented for initial vaccination should receive at least two canine distemper virus (CDV) inoculations 2 to 3 weeks apart. The minimum duration of immunity, as determined by challenge, to attenuated (MLV) CDV is at least 7 years for vaccines using the Rockport strain of CDV, although that for vaccines using the Onderstepoort strain is at least 5 years.

INFECTIOUS CANINE HEPATITIS (CANINE ADENOVIRUS INFECTION)

Vaccination for canine adenovirus infection, the cause of infectious canine hepatitis (ICH), is usually done in combination with that for distemper and other diseases beginning when puppies are 6 to 8 weeks of age. [..] Vaccination for ICH is typically combined with that for CDV. The initial vaccines can be administered when puppies are 6 to 8 weeks of age and every 3 to 4 weeks until they reach 16 weeks of age. Although booster inoculation is recommended annually in adult dogs, challenge studies have demonstrated that the duration of immunity is at least 7 years when attenuated CAV-2 is used as the vaccine antigen.

[The summary for Bordetella states that the vaccine only gives immunity for 7 to 12 months.]

CANINE PARVOVIRAL ENTERITIS

[..] Recommendations for use of these potent parvoviral vaccines are a complete series beginning at 6 weeks of age. Repeat vaccines are given every 3 to 4 weeks until dogs are 16 weeks old despite the fact that some products have label claims of protection by 12 weeks of age. The last inoculation should be given at 16 weeks of age for breeds such as Doberman Pinschers and Rottweilers, which have been identified as being poorly responsive to CPV vaccination. In the absence of maternal immunity, where pups are presented after 16 weeks of age, one MLV CPV-2 inoculation may be sufficient for protection against parvoviral infection. Vaccination with MLV CDV with concurrent CPV-2 vaccination does not cause immunosuppression as has been observed in coinfection with virulent CPV-2 virus. Alternating between distemper and parvoviral vaccines in young puppies on a weekly or longer interval is thus not needed or recommended. [..]

Duration of immunity of MLV CPV-2 vaccines is several years (at least 7 years based on challenge studies), and overvaccination is a consideration. The duration of immunity subsequent to administration of inactivated (killed) CPV products has been shown to protect puppies from challenge for at least 16 months after vaccination.25 Under field conditions, dogs may be partially protected by weaker MLV or inactivated products yet still boost their immunity when exposed to virulent virus.

CORONAVIRAL INFECTION

Most vaccines licensed for canine coronavirus (CCV) are inactivated canine coronaviral or feline coronaviral strains. One attenuated (MLV) canine coronaviral product exists. Manufacturers recommend that two doses of vaccine be given 2 to 3 weeks apart beginning in puppies at 6 to 8 weeks of age, with the last one being given at least after 12 weeks of age. The vaccines seem to be safe; however, allergic reactions may occur more commonly when inactivated coronaviral vaccines are combined with leptospiral bacterins. To avoid potential interactions, CCV vaccine could be used in puppies between 6 and 9 weeks of age, and Leptospira vaccination could be instituted thereafter. Otherwise, the clinician may prefer to decide whether or not it is important or necessary that both products be administered.

CCV challenge studies are not indicative of "protection" since it is not possible to produce experimental disease in dogs over 12 weeks of age. Furthermore, manufacturer recommendations to administer CCV booster vaccines annually are difficult to justify based on the fact that CCV does not cause disease in adult dogs. [..] The routine and frequent use of CCV vaccine in dogs is difficult to rationalize. [..] CCV vaccine is considered to be among the least important vaccine antigens given to dogs today, however, and has been identified by several authors as a vaccine that, quite simply, is not needed.

LEPTOSPIROSIS

Most leptospiral vaccines for dogs contain inactivated serovars of canicola and icterohaemorrhagiae. Vaccination with these products is not recommended in animals less than 9 weeks of age because of the aller- genic nature of these products. [..] Although postvaccination titers often decline to undetectable levels, unpublished challenge studies suggest that immunity in some dogs is sustained for 1 year. [..]

Leptospiral vaccines have been considered optional by veterinarians in many areas because of the perceived low incidence of the disease, short duration of immunity, and risk of postvaccinal hypersensitivity. [..]

RABIES

Rabies vaccines have been extremely effective in reducing the preva- lence of this disease in dogs. As a result, the prevalence of human disease has decreased substantially, although the relative prevalence of feline rabies has increased in the United States. In most countries, inacti- vated (killed) vaccines are used. Inactivated virus vaccines have been shown to provide a minimum duration and level of immunity compara- ble to those of MLV products. They often contain high viral content and potent adjuvants, however, which can sometimes produce acute or chronic hypersensitivity reactions. An avipoxvirus-vectored recombinant rabies vaccine that produces minimal inflammatory reactions has been licensed for use in cats. A single rabies vaccine is generally administered in animals 3 to 4 months of age. A second dose should be administered 1 year after the first dose regardless of the dog's age. Subsequent boosters are required every 1 or 3 years thereafter as mandated by state law or local statutes.

CONCLUSIONS

New technologies for vaccine development and infectious disease diagnosis are likely to be introduced in the near future. With this new technology comes the opportunity to vaccinate companion animals against even more infectious agents than is currently practiced in the United States today. As we look forward, it becomes particularly important to review current vaccination standards applied to dogs with respect to current knowledge of duration of immunity (Table 2), awareness of the incidence and likelihood of injurious or even fatal adverse events associated with vaccination, and individual risk factors that dictate which vaccines are most appropriate at which stage of life.
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Old 03-28-2016, 09:07 AM   #10
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Here is Table 2 from the Schultz describing the duration of immunity for the various vaccinations.
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Old 03-28-2016, 10:37 AM   #11
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Most interesting! Will do more and would be interested in further study

My understanding of titers kind of goes like this :
High numbers are good, but low numbers don't necessary mean no immunity.
Also, numbers vary with different labs.

Would like to hear from others.
Here is a summary from Skeptvet on the use of antibody titers to determine whether a dog needs a vaccination (from Antibody Titer Testing as a Guide for Vaccination in Dogs and Cats | The SkeptVet)

For dogs, the most important core vaccines are for Canine Distemper Virus (CDV), Canine Parvovirus (CPV), and Rabies. In the case of these diseases, a high antibody titer does usually mean the dog is immune, which would mean additional vaccination for those diseases is not needed at the time the titer is measured. However, the rate at which individuals lose immunity to specific diseases varies quite a bit, so there is no way to predict based on a single titer when that individual will become susceptible again or need additional vaccination.


What most people dont realize is that while a high titer for some disease, such as CDV, CPV, and Rabies, means a dog is probably immune, a low titer does NOT mean the dog is susceptible and needs to be vaccinated. That is because the other component of the immune systems memory response, cell-mediated immunity, can protect against infection sometimes even when measured titer levels are low.


So a positive or high titer may mean no vaccine is needed right now, but a low titer does not mean a dog should be vaccinated. In the case of a low titer, we have no way of knowing if that dog is susceptible to these diseases or not.

Legal Issues

The legal requirements for vaccination vary by county and even municipality, so it is difficult to make accurate generalizations. Most jurisdictions only require proof of vaccination against rabies, since that is the disease of greatest concern with respect to human health. Most jurisdictions also do not allow titer testing in lieu of vaccination for rabies, though some may. And when titers are used, the only test that is usually accepted is the FAVM from the Kansas State University veterinary laboratory. So while titers are representative of immunity for rabies in dogs and cats, and thus can indicate when vaccination is not needed, they are not often useful practically because they dont fulfil the legal vaccination requirements.


Titers may or may not be accepted by other parties that require vaccination for other diseases, such as boarding kennels, training facilities, and dog show organizers. Which tests, if any, are accepted is up to the individual organization. So titers may not always be useful in avoiding vaccination if we are vaccinating specifically to meet a legal or institutional requirement.
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:34 AM   #12
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For those into vaccines, I'd HIGHLY recommend you obtain this free pdf Vaccination Guide from Dogs Naturally - it's VERY good and thorough.

You just follow the link, enter your email addy, and then follow the link emailed to you to download and save the guide.

Here: EXCELLENT Vaccination Guide from Dogs Naturally Magazine

I wish there was a way to just post it / save it here somehow - or - a way to park this guide somewhere and have a permanent link to it. Is there anywhere a person can store pdf's to link to like that (similar to how we have photo storage sites for that purpose)...?
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:15 AM   #13
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For those into vaccines, I'd HIGHLY recommend you obtain this free pdf Vaccination Guide from Dogs Naturally - it's VERY good and thorough.

You just follow the link, enter your email addy, and then follow the link emailed to you to download and save the guide.

Here: EXCELLENT Vaccination Guide from Dogs Naturally Magazine

I wish there was a way to just post it / save it here somehow - or - a way to park this guide somewhere and have a permanent link to it. Is there anywhere a person can store pdf's to link to like that (similar to how we have photo storage sites for that purpose)...?
If the guide isn't very long, you could take a screenshot of each PDF file page and post them. That's what I do with tables from research articles that don't copy and paste well. Or sometimes you can copy and paste the text out of the PDF file directly into a post, with a little massaging of the text to make it look good. I'll take a look and see what I can do. Whatever we do, we have to give a complete citation and credit to Dogs Naturally magazine.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:36 AM   #14
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If the guide isn't very long, you could take a screenshot of each PDF file page and post them. That's what I do with tables from research articles that don't copy and paste well. Or sometimes you can copy and paste the text out of the PDF file directly into a post, with a little massaging of the text to make it look good. I'll take a look and see what I can do. Whatever we do, we have to give a complete citation and credit to Dogs Naturally magazine.
Okay, I took a look at the Dogs Naturally vaccination guidelines. It would have to be screenshotted to reproduce in its entirety. However, since Dr. Schultz helped write the AAHA and international vaccination guidelines that I link to above, and since the international vaccination guidelines include Dr. Schultz's data about the length of immunity that the vaccinations provide, I don't think posting this document would add anything to this conversation. Plus the Dogs Naturally guidelines are written in a somewhat sensationalistic manner and go beyond what Dr. Schultz wrote in his research papers. Dr. Schultz found that core vaccinations last for at least 5 to 7 years in MOST dogs, but not all dogs, and he hasn't extended that research to the entire lifetime of the dog. And I can't find anywhere where Dr. Schultz states that he gives the core vaccinations only once in a lifetime. Maybe he made a personal statement to that effect, but it was never published.

Also Dr. Schultz writes about the potential side effects of vaccinations in the documents I link to above, and they are not as common as the Dogs Naturally magazine implies. Some of the side effects are worse in cats, but not in dogs. (See the international guidelines cowritten by Dr. Schultz in 2015. Link posted above.)

The data on duration of immunity for vaccinations by challenge studies are the only data that really count. The duration by serology is done with titer testing, which is unreliable. Plus even the challenge studies did not show 100% effectiveness--they just show a trend. (Even Dogs Naturally says that it's effective in 95% of the cases, and even that may be overstating the data.) That's why the AAHA guidelines for core vaccines were not extended beyond three years--three years is to be on the safe side. The comments about big Pharma are just paranoid speculation with no factual basis. Since the Dogs Naturally PDF cherry picks the data and quotes it out of context, I would recommend not posting the PDF, unless you want me to pick it apart piece by piece
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Old 04-01-2016, 05:51 AM   #15
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I would recommend not posting the PDF, unless you want me to pick it apart piece by piece
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