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Old 05-08-2015, 12:13 AM   #1
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Default An Open Letter to YT re: food debate

Hi all,

To begin, although I have been aware of various threads re: food, I have refrained from making comment as I am adverse to any debate which degenerates into personal argument.

However, a lot of people have asked my opinion re: this topic and I am very flattered because I understand that my opinion has been sought as a result of my profession. Thank you very much for considering me.

Consequently, I have reviewed various threads on the topic and as a ‘scientist’ who is foremost a person, I am very saddened by the discord which has arisen due to a difference of opinion.

To clarify my background, I have a bachelor’s degree in psychology, a master degree in research and I’m currently attaining a master degree in neuroscience in order to pursue a doctorate in clinical psychology and then a doctorate in neuropsychology.

Some may argue that psychology is not a ‘hard’ or ‘objective’ science and so dismiss all of the theory and results which come from the discipline. In some ways, that’s true because psychology does not reduce emotion, feelings and behavior to ‘objective’ measures. However, in my opinion, that is the beauty of the discipline. Even so, neuroscience is almost completely ‘objective’ and so I feel I have the benefit of a dual perspective.

Therefore, what I’d like to say is, it is my opinion that anyone who attempts to minimize someone else’s feelings, emotions and experiences to ‘science’ is in the wrong. Science should always be used as a guide for past, present and future predictions which include the tangible and subjective. Additionally, the NUMBER ONE rule in science is that any theory should be falsifiable. This means, we think we know that the sun will rise every morning (as it has for the last bazillion years) but what if one day it doesn’t? We think we know that if we slap our neighbor for parking on our driveway, she'll slap us back. But, what if she doesn't? So, science makes theories about the majority of instances but can never predict and confirm individual exceptions to predicted outcomes which means what:

Over all, most science says Royal Canin is a good food but Teddy hated it. So, should I force the food down his neck in the name of science? No, I chose Acana because he eats it and he loves it and it keeps his poop nice. There is no science beyond observation which has made my decision for me. I’m sure Teddy FEELS nice that his poop isn’t hard, and the food tastes good and he isn’t being force-fed for a reason I couldn’t explain to him. Therefore, I FEEL good because my subjective decision was backed up by the vet’s objective opinion which led him to tell me that Teddy being happy and pooping effortlessly are signs of good health.

Another example of science is one which suggests that Teddy’s anxiety is curable via meds. Yet, the vet refuses to give him meds because it will change his PERSONALITY which is individual to him and not measurable by anything other than observation. The vet is a scientist. I agree with him, as a scientist, who studies the effects of medicine on behavior, emotions and feelings.

So, both of the above are examples of how science supports something, in the main, but does not take Teddy’s individuality into account and so has been rejected.

Finally, an individual comes to me for assistance re: Alzheimer’s dementia (AD). They ask me what meds they should be on to alleviate symptoms of AD in their parent. I tell them that Rivastigmine is an anticholinesterase medication which means that it blocks the action of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) which is an enzyme which breaks down acetylcholine. Reduced levels of acetylcholine have been implicated in the symptoms of AD. So, whilst the disease cannot be stopped, symptoms can be reduced for a time. The individual says, “Even so, this medicine causes extreme gastrointestinal upset which I find disturbing and the person in my care is embarrassed by this, too.”

Now, the positive effects of this medication on enzymatic activity have been objectively measured using various brain scanning techniques and neural network models. So, am I a good scientist only if I dismiss this individuals concern regarding embarrassment and physical discomfort which are two things which cannot be measured? I am proud to say that I do not think that to be the case. In this instance, I would ask the individual to weigh up the known pros and cons of the medication and offer suitable alternatives which are in line with their INDIVIDUAL needs and perception on what they consider to be a desirable treatment outcome.

So, my point is, there are limitations to science especially as it pertains to living creatures. Measurable science is not better or right as compared to someone else’s experiences, observations and feelings. The point of view that ‘objective’ science trumps subjectivity is flawed when it is applied to living creatures. As far as cell biology, botany or physics, one can take the stance of a ‘right or wrong’ to a point but even Einstein’s physic THEORIES are still challenged today.

In truth, there is interplay between subjectivity (feelings and emotions and experiences) and objectivity (measurable outcomes, math, etc) in all facets of living experience and to try to reduce our experiences to one or the other to land on the side that is ‘right’ is fallacy. Anyone seeking to be ‘right’ in this way is already wrong.

So, I hope that clears things up as far as what my ‘stance’ is on this subject. Maybe some of you will be surprised and maybe some of you won't be and maybe most of you didn't care to begin with.. But, whatever the case, I hope that we can all learn to agree differently or at least agree to disagree harmoniously on this and other subjects which pertain to our furry friends.

Sincerely,

Your resident poop scientist x

Last edited by SirTeddykins; 05-08-2015 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 05-08-2015, 04:38 AM   #2
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What a well thought out and reasonable presentation of your opinion. I literally agree with every thing you said. I am not a scientist, but I am a woman with a lot of life experiences with terminal illnesses, pyschological disorders in people close to me, and just general life experience. I too have come to know that the cure is not the same for every circumstance. Medications can have the opposite effect on a certain percentage of patients. So to think there is only "one" right way to see anything is very narrow minded, in my opinion. Like you, I totally feel everyone has a right to their opinion, and to express it freely without fear of being verbally beat up. No one likes to be humiliated for their thoughts or beliefs. Many times doctors in all specialties have to experiment with treatments to find the one that works for someone. The same goes for vets. How many of us have been told to take a certain medication, only to discover we have an allergy to it? Personally, I can't take Tylenol, Benadryl, so many OTC's and prescription meds that may have forms of that in them. Because of this I ended up seeking out more natural remedies to prevent situations that may end up requiring medicine. So, yes I feed my family organically and have for years
I have had many wonderful animals in my lifetime. I have always followed the guidelines given to me by my vet. Always, yet I've lost too many dogs to diseases that I couldn't do anything about. I'm losing one now to cancer and CF. I've made a choice to offer him palliative care at this point. I am not subjecting him to a horrible course of medications that even the vet admits at this point will at best give him a few months. Should I make his last months miserable? No. I've chosen not to do that. He's not in pain yet. He's not ready to go.
Why I am interested in providing the best possible diet to my dogs is because I personally do believe that the dog food world has become so money driven that its almost impossible to be able to trust what we are giving them. I do think the dog foods of the last 20 yrs have changed and as a result we are seeing an increase in cancers, heart diseases, thyroid conditions, digestive disorders etc. When I grew up we had a little chihauha that my mom literally only ever fed table food. He had everything that he probably shouldn't have and yet he lived to be 19 yrs old!! My late husbands childhood dog lived to be 21 and he lived on pasta and table scraps too. Back then we really didn't go to the vet unless it was a dire emergency. Just makes me think about what has changed so much since I was a child. We try to do better by feeding the best dog foods on the market, we bring them to the vet religiously, they are given shots and preventative meds, and yet dogs aren't living as long really.
So, I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion. No one is right or wrong. We all have reasons for why we make choices to do things one way or another. I'm very happy to have read your open letter, and appreciate the time and thought that went into it. Thank you.
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Old 05-08-2015, 05:18 AM   #3
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I always enjoy reading your opinion, so I'm glad you chimed in and appreciate the time you took to write this thoughtful post.

What you said at the very end is the only goal we really want to achieve here in Health and Diet: that we disagree harmoniously, not disparagingly or acrimoniously.

In other words, instead of saying this: "what you posted is from a wackjob, and this is wackadoodle science, I hope no one listens to this"

One should instead feel welcome to say this: "I disagree with what this source is saying, and here's why...."

That is all we're really asking.
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissSunni View Post
What a well thought out and reasonable presentation of your opinion. I literally agree with every thing you said. I am not a scientist, but I am a woman with a lot of life experiences with terminal illnesses, pyschological disorders in people close to me, and just general life experience. I too have come to know that the cure is not the same for every circumstance. Medications can have the opposite effect on a certain percentage of patients. So to think there is only "one" right way to see anything is very narrow minded, in my opinion. Like you, I totally feel everyone has a right to their opinion, and to express it freely without fear of being verbally beat up. No one likes to be humiliated for their thoughts or beliefs. Many times doctors in all specialties have to experiment with treatments to find the one that works for someone. The same goes for vets. How many of us have been told to take a certain medication, only to discover we have an allergy to it? Personally, I can't take Tylenol, Benadryl, so many OTC's and prescription meds that may have forms of that in them. Because of this I ended up seeking out more natural remedies to prevent situations that may end up requiring medicine. So, yes I feed my family organically and have for years
I have had many wonderful animals in my lifetime. I have always followed the guidelines given to me by my vet. Always, yet I've lost too many dogs to diseases that I couldn't do anything about. I'm losing one now to cancer and CF. I've made a choice to offer him palliative care at this point. I am not subjecting him to a horrible course of medications that even the vet admits at this point will at best give him a few months. Should I make his last months miserable? No. I've chosen not to do that. He's not in pain yet. He's not ready to go.
Why I am interested in providing the best possible diet to my dogs is because I personally do believe that the dog food world has become so money driven that its almost impossible to be able to trust what we are giving them. I do think the dog foods of the last 20 yrs have changed and as a result we are seeing an increase in cancers, heart diseases, thyroid conditions, digestive disorders etc. When I grew up we had a little chihauha that my mom literally only ever fed table food. He had everything that he probably shouldn't have and yet he lived to be 19 yrs old!! My late husbands childhood dog lived to be 21 and he lived on pasta and table scraps too. Back then we really didn't go to the vet unless it was a dire emergency. Just makes me think about what has changed so much since I was a child. We try to do better by feeding the best dog foods on the market, we bring them to the vet religiously, they are given shots and preventative meds, and yet dogs aren't living as long really.
So, I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion. No one is right or wrong. We all have reasons for why we make choices to do things one way or another. I'm very happy to have read your open letter, and appreciate the time and thought that went into it. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
I always enjoy reading your opinion, so I'm glad you chimed in and appreciate the time you took to write this thoughtful post.

What you said at the very end is the only goal we really want to achieve here in Health and Diet: that we disagree harmoniously, not disparagingly or acrimoniously.

In other words, instead of saying this: "what you posted is from a wackjob, and this is wackadoodle science, I hope no one listens to this"

One should instead feel welcome to say this: "I disagree with what this source is saying, and here's why...."

That is all we're really asking.
Thanks both! I tend to withdrawal from arrogance as I view it as a cloak for insecurity and ignorance. These two things are not something which can't be overcome but the volition has to be there...


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Old 05-08-2015, 08:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
I always enjoy reading your opinion, so I'm glad you chimed in and appreciate the time you took to write this thoughtful post.

What you said at the very end is the only goal we really want to achieve here in Health and Diet: that we disagree harmoniously, not disparagingly or acrimoniously.

In other words, instead of saying this: "what you posted is from a wackjob, and this is wackadoodle science, I hope no one listens to this"

One should instead feel welcome to say this: "I disagree with what this source is saying, and here's why...."

That is all we're really asking.
I cant add anything else, the above says what I would. Thank you . All too often when people disagree they arent rational in their thinking or words.
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:43 AM   #6
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Excellent post! I've had enough schooling and lived long enough to know that things change and it's important to keep an open mind about things. I don't mind debates, but I hate it when they seem more about "I'm right and you're wrong", instead of learning why people have come to their conclusions.
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:21 AM   #7
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Excellent post! I've had enough schooling and lived long enough to know that things change and it's important to keep an open mind about things. I don't mind debates, but I hate it when they seem more about "I'm right and you're wrong", instead of learning why people have come to their conclusions.


Agreed. Some of the research articles on this subject give me a headache. Teddy spinning around in circles for his meal, though? That makes me laugh!
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:07 AM   #8
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I felt like I should be taking notes while reading your letter. LOL

I always enjoy your posts, no matter what the subject. Although, I have to say it's usually on a lighter subject.
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:12 PM   #9
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Thank you Misty for posting your well articulated thoughts. For me on the food threads, to each their own opinion. Their own experience is and will be a valued tool. Science such as it is in this arena can contribute to the owners decisions on what to feed - but like in many things is only a factor that is to be considered.
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:03 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
I felt like I should be taking notes while reading your letter. LOL

I always enjoy your posts, no matter what the subject. Although, I have to say it's usually on a lighter subject.



haha - I'm undercover intelligent and over the top crazy -

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy View Post
Thank you Misty for posting your well articulated thoughts. For me on the food threads, to each their own opinion. Their own experience is and will be a valued tool. Science such as it is in this arena can contribute to the owners decisions on what to feed - but like in many things is only a factor that is to be considered.

Exactly! SUCCINT - could use a leaf from your book re: communication!
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