Canine Caviar

[RileyDC]

Got this from my cousin:
[Looks to me like a buildup of protein “Waste Products”
certainly can cause kidney or liver damage.]

Medical Information: Kidney Disease (Kidney Failure, Nephritis)


Among the most subtle and important of the many toxic threats to the kidneys are the excess amounts of proteins that are consumed by the average person who eats our rich American foods. The daily intake of more proteins than the body really needs means that the excess must be eliminated through the kidneys. We're equipped with no storage depots for proteins, as we are for fats.

The proteins not used for body repair and growth float around in the blood stream until they are metabolized by the liver and their remnants are removed by the kidneys. The filtering units in the kidneys are called nephrons. Destruction of these nephrons occurs directly from exposure to those proteins or to the products of their degradation. The damage from excessive intake of proteins is so common that, in an otherwise healthy person, 25-50% of the functional capacity of the kidneys will be destroyed after eight decades of high living American-style. Even so, we're lucky to have much reserve tissue to rely on: with only 25% of kidney function remaining, plenty of tissue cells still survive to handle the waste products of body metabolism, and the damaged and failing kidneys go unnoticed. Our bodies are very forgiving!


So looks to me like indeed this paragraph is indeed correct.

Quote from CC: ""A buildup of protein waste products causes kidney or liver damage. High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease. A high-protein diet may cause liver or kidney problems because the body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.""

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by RileyDC

Got this from my cousin:
[Looks to me like a buildup of protein “Waste Products”
certainly can cause kidney or liver damage.]

Medical Information: Kidney Disease (Kidney Failure, Nephritis)


Among the most subtle and important of the many toxic threats to the kidneys are the excess amounts of proteins that are consumed by the average person who eats our rich American foods. The daily intake of more proteins than the body really needs means that the excess must be eliminated through the kidneys. We're equipped with no storage depots for proteins, as we are for fats.

The proteins not used for body repair and growth float around in the blood stream until they are metabolized by the liver and their remnants are removed by the kidneys. The filtering units in the kidneys are called nephrons. Destruction of these nephrons occurs directly from exposure to those proteins or to the products of their degradation. The damage from excessive intake of proteins is so common that, in an otherwise healthy person, 25-50% of the functional capacity of the kidneys will be destroyed after eight decades of high living American-style. Even so, we're lucky to have much reserve tissue to rely on: with only 25% of kidney function remaining, plenty of tissue cells still survive to handle the waste products of body metabolism, and the damaged and failing kidneys go unnoticed. Our bodies are very forgiving!


So looks to me like indeed this paragraph is indeed correct.

Quote from CC: ""A buildup of protein waste products causes kidney or liver damage. High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease. A high-protein diet may cause liver or kidney problems because the body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.""

Off topic a bit....

Buttttt, this Dr. you are quoting is a well known vegetarian guru and some consider extremist. He makes his money off of a diet plan based on statements HE BELIEVES, much like the one you are quoting. He, writes books, lectures etc. and even has a program were you can go for 10 days to get on his diet etc., I would be more comfortable with a quote or comment from someone who was medically sound and had real intensive research to back it up and not just trying to make a living from it. (Think Dr. Adkins, same premise different diet) A very good friend of mine became sick on his diet and shouldn't have ever been on it in the first place, not HIS fault per say...but she really believed every word he said.

There is no question that CC is a wonderful product for some, I'm even going to try a different sample of it...but I think this whole thread is going off topic and I would hate for anyone to be confused, misguided or otherwise....I would hope each of us would choose the best dog food for our pups and do so by reading the labels, talking to our vets and if possible a vet nutritionist and reading our personal reviews. Some pups need a special diet, some even a prescription diet eventually we all find what works for our pups...I am still trying, but eventually I will find it!

[RileyDC]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

Off topic a bit....

Buttttt, this Dr. you are quoting is a well known vegetarian guru and some consider extremist. He makes his money off of a diet plan based on statements HE BELIEVES, much like the one you are quoting. He, writes books, lectures etc. and even has a program were you can go for 10 days to get on his diet etc., I would be more comfortable with a quote or comment from someone who was medically sound and had real intensive research to back it up and not just trying to make a living from it. (Think Dr. Adkins, same premise different diet) A very good friend of mine became sick on his diet and shouldn't have ever been on it in the first place, not HIS fault per say...but she really believed every word he said.

There is no question that CC is a wonderful product for some, I'm even going to try a different sample of it...but I think this whole thread is going off topic and I would hate for anyone to be confused, misguided or otherwise....I would hope each of us would choose the best dog food for our pups and do so by reading the labels, talking to our vets and if possible a vet nutritionist and reading our personal reviews. Some pups need a special diet, some even a prescription diet eventually we all find what works for our pups...I am still trying, but eventually I will find it!

but I think this whole thread is going off topic and I would hate for anyone to be confused, misguided or otherwise....
I Agree: I have just "Unsubscribed" from this particular thread.
I don't need to see anymore.

[my2boyz]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

O.k. so...the canned variety I just bought is the Venison in the pink can and it does not contain carageenan. The ingredients are: Venison, water sufficient for processing, venison tripe, liver and guar gum.
This must be the 'new' formula?

The dry food I bought is the grain free Wilderness ALS formula and the phosphorus level is: .8% min. and the protein is 26% min.

The ingredients are: Venison meal, split peas, yeast culture, lamb fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sun-cured alfalfa, sun-cured kelp, FOS, calcium proteinate, sodium chloride, lecithin, choline chloride, parsley, fenugreek, peppermint, taurine, selenium, whole clove garlic, vitamin E, zinc proteinate, vitamin C, papaya, rose hips, yucca schidigera extract, niacin, beta-carotene, manganese proeteinate, vitamin D3, biotin, vitamin A, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, potassium proteinate, folic acid.

I do know they are 4 and 4 1/2 star foods on the rating charts and it contains none of the ingredients to avoid on the Dog Food Project website.

This gets so confusing to someone who knows just enough to get herself in trouble! lol! Is there anything in here that I need to be concerned about?

All I know for sure is that Moo has only been eating this for a couple of days and she isn't licking or scratching anywhere and it's nice to see her actually get to rest. Oh, and no doggie breath or dog food breath after her meals.

So, before everyone abandons this thread can someone please tell me if there are any ingredients listed above ^ that I should be concerned with?

Mimimomo...I know you posted a link to info on the guar gum and from what I read last night it appears to be a source of fiber in dog foods (if I remember what I read correctly, it was late) and if you get too much fiber, yes, it can cause nausea, cramps and diarrhea and fiber also naturally reduces cholsterol in humans. So, is the information on that page relevant to humans or dogs?

The canned food states it is for supplemental feeding only...like mixed with dry food. I didn't find anything bad about guar gum in dog foods on the pages I read.

Am I missing something or am I understanding things correctly?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by RileyDC

I see where they have the word "may" in there in the bolded red sentence...
That usually means, it May, or it May Not. That is not a definitive that they believe it absolutely does.

Using "may" about something that is just untrue, doesn't give them a pass on putting false info out there. It's like saying "Consuming water on a daily basis *may* kill you, but we're just saying may." It doesn't excuse the falseness of that statement, ya know?

CC made a mistake. It's a mistake that I find particularly troubling bc it perpetuates an ongoing myth about dog food...that's why it's a valid mistake to be concerned about it. I hope they correct it. It's not like it's their definitive moment though, so let's keep it in perspective. Food companies make mistakes and we discuss them here - so it's no different than any other similar thread.

It's all good . It's good that as a group, we can discuss this kind of thing. I appreciate that along side you *loving* this food, that you can also look at it from a neutral stance...that's when it can be really educational to others trying to learn about any food.

Originally Posted by lynzy420

Off topic a bit....

Buttttt, this Dr. you are quoting is a well known vegetarian guru and some consider extremist. He makes his money off of a diet plan based on statements HE BELIEVES, much like the one you are quoting. He, writes books, lectures etc. and even has a program were you can go for 10 days to get on his diet etc., I would be more comfortable with a quote or comment from someone who was medically sound and had real intensive research to back it up and not just trying to make a living from it. (Think Dr. Adkins, same premise different diet) A very good friend of mine became sick on his diet and shouldn't have ever been on it in the first place, not HIS fault per say...but she really believed every word he said.

There is no question that CC is a wonderful product for some, I'm even going to try a different sample of it...but I think this whole thread is going off topic and I would hate for anyone to be confused, misguided or otherwise....I would hope each of us would choose the best dog food for our pups and do so by reading the labels, talking to our vets and if possible a vet nutritionist and reading our personal reviews. Some pups need a special diet, some even a prescription diet eventually we all find what works for our pups...I am still trying, but eventually I will find it!

Yup. For how the kidneys handle protein (in humans; which helps learning about kidneys in dogs), it's better to search the Mayo website or a physician reviewed site, not a doctor's personal blog when that doctor is promoting/selling his beliefs.

Originally Posted by RileyDC

but I think this whole thread is going off topic and I would hate for anyone to be confused, misguided or otherwise....
I Agree: I have just "Unsubscribed" from this particular thread.
I don't need to see anymore.

I think this thread has been really beneficial and right ON topic. The topic is CC. I don't really see any posts that aren't pertinent to the topic. It's important to bring up any/all concerns here...I don't know why anyone would be opposed to that. The protein issue is a big one bc of the perpetuated myth about it...which has gone on for, what, decades now? I think it started in the 40s/50s with that British doctor and his study (can't recall name).

Theresa - you know I love ya, but you're making the whole topic of CC so hard for people to reasonably discuss here. If people try to discuss CC on a thread you started, they get criticized if they bring up anything that isn't deemed pro-CC...and they're told to start a new thread. So, a new thread is started so a discussion can occur and yet still, when people are trying to discuss *valid* points regarding CC - you resort to implying our discussion is not worthy, and therefore "I unsubscribed". If you don't want to be part of this discussion, that's not a problem - but we don't need to know you 'unsubscribed', anymore than we need to know when someone is put on 'ignore'....same context. Ya know, you could be an important part of this discussion if you'd let people have their thoughts and questions without trying to squash them. You LOVE CC - and that's fabulous...I SUPPORT you, I always have. If you love CC and support others as they do you, then support their effort to have a discussion too...that's all we're asking .

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

So, before everyone abandons this thread can someone please tell me if there are any ingredients listed above ^ that I should be concerned with?

Mimimomo...I know you posted a link to info on the guar gum and from what I read last night it appears to be a source of fiber in dog foods (if I remember what I read correctly, it was late) and if you get too much fiber, yes, it can cause nausea, cramps and diarrhea and fiber also naturally reduces cholsterol in humans. So, is the information on that page relevant to humans or dogs?

The canned food states it is for supplemental feeding only...like mixed with dry food. I didn't find anything bad about guar gum in dog foods on the pages I read.

Am I missing something or am I understanding things correctly?

Looks like nice ingreds to me . I always like foods that don't have a billion ingreds too, ya know? Especially when it comes to allergy dogs. I hope this food works for you, I know you've had such ongoing trouble with allergies and I so understand those frustrations.

If the food you're looking at says 'suppl feeding', then it's prob intended to be either temporary or to be mixed with something. Are any of the formulas considered complete diets? Or is there a reason you want suppl feeding? Some of their formulas aren't AAFCO, right? If they aren't AAFCO, you could feed that formula on a temp basis...but I'd be concerned for long term...

[my2boyz]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Looks like nice ingreds to me . I always like foods that don't have a billion ingreds too, ya know? Especially when it comes to allergy dogs. I hope this food works for you, I know you've had such ongoing trouble with allergies and I so understand those frustrations.

If the food you're looking at says 'suppl feeding', then it's prob intended to be either temporary or to be mixed with something. Are any of the formulas considered complete diets? Or is there a reason you want suppl feeding? Some of their formulas aren't AAFCO, right? If they aren't AAFCO, you could feed that formula on a temp basis...but I'd be concerned for long term...

Thank you Ann.

I thought the ingredients looked good too but I'm not the best when it comes to those comparisons. I will check with CC and see if the dry formula I bought is AAFCO approved.

I bought both the canned and dry foods so I only use the canned to mix over their dry at mealtime or a spoonful for a midday snack and that's the one that is for supplemental feeding only. The Wilderness dry kibble is an ALS complete food and that is the main part of their meals.

I really hope this works for Moo and so far it looks good...it may be the answer I've been looking for as far as a food for travel or if the power goes out or something. Believe me...fresh and frozen dog food doesn't last long when your power goes out for 7 days! lol!

[mimimomo]

I'm w/ Ann on this one...I think (from little knowledge, but I'm learning as I go!) this protein issue is a little different for dogs: Low Protein Dog Foods
The Veterinary and Aquatic Services Department of Drs. Foster and Smith addresses what it refers to as a false rumor regarding high protein diets:3

“High protein pet foods are NOT harmful to a normal animal’s kidneys. As an animal’s body digests and metabolizes protein, nitrogen is released as a by-product.
“The excess nitrogen is excreted by the kidneys. A high protein diet produces more nitrogen by-products and the kidneys simply excrete the nitrogen in the urine.
“While you may think this would ‘overwork’ the kidneys and lead to possible kidney damage, this is not true. The kidney’s filtering capabilities are so great that even one kidney is sufficient to sustain a normal life.”

Better Quality Protein
Fewer Nitrogen By-Products

So, then, why do so many veterinarians still believe a high protein diet is dangerous to older dogs and kidney health?

“The myth that high protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low protein (and thus low nitrogen) diets.

“Now, we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein, but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products.”

Restrict Phosphorus… Not Protein

Animals with impaired kidney function are reported to do better by restricting phosphorus intake. However, limiting phosphorus on a preventive basis is not likely to delay the onset of kidney disease or benefit healthy older dogs.4

Drs. Foster and Smith conclude:5

“Unless your veterinarian has told you your pet has a kidney problem and it is severe enough to adjust the protein intake, you can feed your pet a high protein diet without worrying about ‘damaging’ or ‘stressing’ your pet’s kidneys.”

[my2boyz]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

Thank you Ann.

I thought the ingredients looked good too but I'm not the best when it comes to those comparisons. I will check with CC and see if the dry formula I bought is AAFCO approved.

I bought both the canned and dry foods so I only use the canned to mix over their dry at mealtime or a spoonful for a midday snack and that's the one that is for supplemental feeding only. The Wilderness dry kibble is an ALS complete food and that is the main part of their meals.

I really hope this works for Moo and so far it looks good...it may be the answer I've been looking for as far as a food for travel or if the power goes out or something. Believe me...fresh and frozen dog food doesn't last long when your power goes out for 7 days! lol!

I just spent quite a bit of time on the phone with Julie at CC and she was very helpful and answered all of my questions and then some.

Yes, their foods meet and exceed the AAFCO standards, not only here but in other countries also.

I asked about the phosphorus, protein, AAFCO and more and all of my questions were answered. They are going through some website changes and some information was autofilled from an old form and it posted incorrectly but that is being corrected. Just because the % of phosphorus says (for example) 1.7% min. that doesn't mean it could have way more than recommended.

I would suggest that anyone who is interested in getting questions answered or learning more about CC to give them a call and hear it for yourselves because I don't want to quote or explain something wrong...they are very helpful and willing to answer any and all of your questions.

Thank you all for your input and information...these threads have been informative for me on both sides of the coin.

That being said...I have no doubt that I am feeding a quality food and if Moo continues to do well with it I think we have found 'our food'.

[mimimomo]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

So, before everyone abandons this thread can someone please tell me if there are any ingredients listed above ^ that I should be concerned with?

Mimimomo...I know you posted a link to info on the guar gum and from what I read last night it appears to be a source of fiber in dog foods (if I remember what I read correctly, it was late) and if you get too much fiber, yes, it can cause nausea, cramps and diarrhea and fiber also naturally reduces cholsterol in humans. So, is the information on that page relevant to humans or dogs?

The canned food states it is for supplemental feeding only...like mixed with dry food. I didn't find anything bad about guar gum in dog foods on the pages I read.

Am I missing something or am I understanding things correctly?

I think it was for humans...but guar gum is the last ingredient in the canned food, so there won't be that much to have a negative effect. Since it's for supplemental feeding, you'll be mixing it w/the kibble as a topper, I think it's fine...@ least it's not linked to cancer! Fiber is actually a very important part of a dog's diet: The Benefits of Dog Food Fiber (Part 1)
The Benefits of Dog Food Fiber (Part 2)

[my2boyz]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

I think it was for humans...but guar gum is the last ingredient in the canned food, so there won't be that much to have a negative effect. Since it's for supplemental feeding, you'll be mixing it w/the kibble as a topper, I think it's fine...@ least it's not linked to cancer! Fiber is actually a very important part of a dog's diet: The Benefits of Dog Food Fiber (Part 1)
The Benefits of Dog Food Fiber (Part 2)

Thank you

[mimimomo]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

Thank you

YVW
I'm so excited Canine Caviar is not using carrageenan in their canned food, I'll be picking up some canned versions next time I go along w/a bag of Venison.

[my2boyz]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

YVW
I'm so excited Canine Caviar is not using carrageenan in their canned food, I'll be picking up some canned versions next time I go along w/a bag of Venison.

[my2boyz]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

YVW
I'm so excited Canine Caviar is not using carrageenan in their canned food, I'll be picking up some canned versions next time I go along w/a bag of Venison.

Oh...Julie did say that the canned food should be used within 72 hours once opened so she suggested to put some in a container to keep in the fridge and the rest in the snack baggies and keep them in the freezer...that way you can put one in the fridge overnight to thaw for use the next day.

[roseslevi]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

YVW
I'm so excited Canine Caviar is not using carrageenan in their canned food, I'll be picking up some canned versions next time I go along w/a bag of Venison.

Me too!