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Old 01-24-2013, 12:24 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseslevi View Post
So in my opinion which is just that, my opinion,this food makes me a little nervous. Another member mentioned that Canine Caviar canned variety contained Carrageenan Gum. I personally called the company to ask about this ingredient and got sent all over the place Canine Cavair claims to act like a cancer preventative,it states this on its about us page. But when I researched this ingredient, it seems that this is not a great ingredient and can be cancer causing.
I was also hoping to try this for Levi, but have reconsidered.

Yep! Just about every canned dog food has Carrageenan Gum!
You could Google "canned dog food without carrageenan"
and see what pops up. I am sure there are several without...

There Is No Perfect Food. Not every food is
going to work the same for every dog... and
there are always going to be people who have
something to say about every food... whether
it be bad, or good. I do like to hear both the Good
and Bad of the foods I am feeding and then it is up
to me to decide whether I am going to feed it to my
pup or not. In a perfect world I would Love to HomeCook...
I am just too nervous that I won't be giving Ry the exact
nutrients he needs.


If you have any concerns about CC, you can
always email Dawn, Directly!
She's Absolutely WONDERFUL!!!!

DBarraco@caninecaviar.com
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #32
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Sad Carrageenan not just in dog food...

I found this Site:

I didn't realize Carrageenan is in a LOT of different
household products.... !!

Carrageenan Information | Carrageenan Guide | GoodGuide
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:54 PM   #33
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What is the opinion of CC on the dog food rating sites?

I've been reading some pages found in a basic internet search and I found this one (among many others): What Is Carrageenan?

Read the last paragraph under 'Health Concerns'...it states that the degraded carrageenan could cause gastrointestinal problems, including cancers but the degraded form isn't typically used in food.

So, I guess maybe the questions shouldn't neccessarily be whether the carrageenan itself is harmful but what form of it is used in dog foods and is that form harmful?

I'm not pro or con at this point...I'm trial feeding it with an open mind but I can already see a difference in Moo. We are feeding the Wilderness dry food and the canned venison.

Last edited by my2boyz; 01-24-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseslevi View Post
So in my opinion which is just that, my opinion,this food makes me a little nervous. Another member mentioned that Canine Caviar canned variety contained Carrageenan Gum. I personally called the company to ask about this ingredient and got sent all over the place Canine Cavair claims to act like a cancer preventative,it states this on its about us page. But when I researched this ingredient, it seems that this is not a great ingredient and can be cancer causing.
I was also hoping to try this for Levi, but have reconsidered.
I knew calling them wouldn't work either! Thanks for taking your time to call them & so sorry they wasted it by sending you all over the place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly View Post
Usually if you email the pet food or product companies, someone will contact you about your concerns.

As for why this thread was started, I have never known the OP to be anything but helpful to our dogs, dispense excellent, measured information, advice or opinions and try to get the whole story out about an issue. If there are any downsides to anything that might not be covered on one thread, I hope someone that knows about that, does start another thread to address those. I want to know both the good and the bad.
I have emailed Canine Caviar several x's & they NEVER responded! 2 x's I asked a simple question: When is the Buffalo formula going to come out? The others were important questions that I needed pertinent answers for. I needed to know what the urine pH is produced by eating the Open Sky formula. Momo's pH is a little high @ 7 & we needed to lower it bc he has struvite crystals. The other was about carrageenan in their canned food, is it undegraded (fit for human consumption) or degraded (linked to cancer, IBD, inflammation & digestive upset). Well, it turns out, both are not safe!
According to Choosing the Right Canned Food Could Save Your Dog’s Life | The Dogington Post
Though food-grade or undegraded carrageenan is touted as safe, even approved for use in organic foods, a 2005 study showed no sample of food-grade carrageenan could claim to be entirely free of the cancer risk degraded carrageenan.

Carrageenan Just Don’t Do It
What’s this ingredient in my pet’s food? Carrageenan?


The Honest Kitchen answered me the next day w/detailed answers, the exact pH of the food & the pH of urine produced by eating that food. They even wished Momo well!

For me, I personally WILL NOT feed my guys any food/ingredient that will/has ill affects on laboratory animals & even humans...but that's just me. There are a few canned foods out there that does not use carrageenan (for example, Party Animal- only 1 I can think of, off the top of my head right now bc I fed this b4). There's also the concern of BPA in cans. I am in no way saying not to feed Canine Caviar, I am just addressing my concerns, esp since there's scientific studies to back it up.

P.S. BTW Jeanie (lolll since I quoted you), this whole post is not directed @ you or any person in particular. JMO
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RileyDC View Post
I found this Site:

I didn't realize Carrageenan is in a LOT of different
household products.... !!

Carrageenan Information | Carrageenan Guide | GoodGuide
Yup, Trader Joe's cottage cheese had it, so I chucked it!
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:34 PM   #36
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Omg

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo View Post
Yup, Trader Joe's cottage cheese had it, so I chucked it!

OOOOMG!! I am going to have to look at my labels more closely, now!!
I'm not so sure I want to be feeding Riley Carrageenan!!

I have fed WERUVA canned. I am Happy to see a few of their formulas has none!!
But I see a few do!!
I only feed it occassionally.... Like I will mix a teeny bit in with kibble.
And, I like that you can get the Weruva in Small cans.

Weruva - People Food for Pets - Dog Cuisine - Human Style

Last edited by RileyDC; 01-24-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by RileyDC View Post
BTW:
That first Paragraph with some Bolded stuff is Absolutely TRUE!!
I have an uncle and a cousin who are both on kidney dialysis.

When our bodies digest the protein we eat, the process creates waste products. In the kidneys, millions of tiny blood vessels (capillaries) with even tinier holes in them act as filters. As blood flows through the blood vessels, small molecules such as waste products squeeze through the holes. These waste products become part of the urine. Useful substances, such as protein and red blood cells, are too big to pass through the holes in the filter and stay in the blood.
Lol, I think you misread . People/dogs WITH kidney or liver disease (like your uncle and cousin) DO have to watch protein.

However, protein does not cause kidney or liver problems. What CC said is that "too much protein causes liver and kidney damage" - that is categorically NOT true.

Here's an analogy: Sweets don't *cause* diabetes, however, people who have diabetes need to extremely careful w/ their sweets/carbs.

As far as those mentioning feeding raw long term...I've been feeding it about 6 years now, and I really love it. It's not for everybody, but that's the case for any food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovespandp View Post
We all have different opinions and that is fine, I have a different opinion on why this thread was started, but I will keep my mouth shut.

What is this supposed to mean?
You can't exactly "keep your mouth shut" after the snide remark already left it.

This is now the 2nd CC thread where you've gone after people. Please stop with the snide remarks, they're nothing but negative. I'm asking respectfully, a second time now. Please be respectful toward others; asking people to be respectful is not asking a whole lot, I should hope.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:07 PM   #38
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[QUOTE=Wylie's Mom;4115762]Lol, I think you misread . People/dogs WITH kidney or liver disease (like your uncle and cousin) DO have to watch protein.

However, protein does not cause kidney or liver problems. What CC said is that "too much protein causes liver and kidney damage" - that is categorically NOT true.

Here's an analogy: Sweets don't *cause* diabetes, however, people who have diabetes need to extremely careful w/ their sweets/carbs.

As far as those mentioning feeding raw long term...I've been feeding it about 6 years now, and I really love it. It's not for everybody, but that's the case for any food

************************************************** ******

Yeah... I already know about the protein not causing kidney/liver damage but being bad if a dog already has kidney/liver damage. I was a little nervous about high protein formulas until I researched that. I read those White Papers of Champion Pet Foods and they really explain a Lot in detail.

Whether it was read incorrectly or not, I don't think that kidney/liver damage is an LOL type of matter... or deserved an Eye Roll... but okay.

In your previous post, what I read was: what CC said is that "a buildup of protein waste products causes liver and kidney damage" ...
- I guess I am confused as to what Protein Waste Products exactly is...
is it the same as just plain ole' Protein? sounds kind of gross...

What initially causes kidney/liver damage in dogs?
Is it the type of food they eat?? Is there anything that can be done to prevent it?

You may remember but I believe it was because of You that I started
feeding Riley RAW... Remember he had that bad reaction to the Lamb in the Primal. He really Loved it and was doing okay on it, but he always seemed Hungry... and then his old Vet, here in the City, really scared me and was Really Against it. He seems to be a pretty sensitive Pup, which is why I am so excited that Canine Caviar has been working for him for so long with no issues and no visits to the vet with any ear problems or skin issues. I think that I would rather feed raw than a canned food with that Carrageenan in it.... ?!
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:09 PM   #39
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I did manage to get a phone call back from Canine Caviar today after getting the run around earlier. I spoke with Amy, I told her that I was questioning the statement made on the about us page....that using the food would reduce the risk of cancer, when 3 of the 4 canned varieties listed contained a cancer causing agent. She told me that they have reformulated the canned variety to include a non-cancer causing gum thickener. It is on the market now, but so is the old formula. If you read ingredients, look for the canned variety that do not have carrageenan gum listed. She also told me that they would be updating the web site to show the changes. I told her that I was happy that she called me back and feel much better about the food.

Meanwhile still cleaning out my cupboards to make sure I don't have anything here with questionable ingredients.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by roseslevi View Post
I did manage to get a phone call back from Canine Caviar today after getting the run around earlier. I spoke with Amy, I told her that I was questioning the statement made on the about us page....that using the food would reduce the risk of cancer, when 3 of the 4 canned varieties listed contained a cancer causing agent. She told me that they have reformulated the canned variety to include a non-cancer causing gum thickener. It is on the market now, but so is the old formula. If you read ingredients, look for the canned variety that do not have carrageenan gum listed. She also told me that they would be updating the web site to show the changes. I told her that I was happy that she called me back and feel much better about the food.

Meanwhile still cleaning out my cupboards to make sure I don't have anything here with questionable ingredients.
**************************

YAAAAY!!

At the beginning of this Thread, I posted this:


My bag of wild Ocean said it had 1.0% Phosphorus... ??

It is no secret and they have been announcing on their
FB page that they are in the process of revamping their
website and they are not finished just yet so who knows?!



Just checked my bag of Wild Ocean... 1.0% Phosphorus
AND SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EXCITED!!!!!!!!!
NONE OF MY WET CANS HAVE CARRAGEENAN!

I've always had success on the phone!
They are Extremely Helpful and Nice!!
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #41
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Yeah... I already know about the protein not causing kidney/liver damage but being bad if a dog already has kidney/liver damage. I was a little nervous about high protein formulas until I researched that. I read those White Papers of Champion Pet Foods and they really explain a Lot in detail.

Whether it was read incorrectly or not, I don't think that kidney/liver damage is an LOL type of matter... or deserved an Eye Roll... but okay.

In your previous post, what I read was: what CC said is that "a buildup of protein waste products causes liver and kidney damage" ...
- I guess I am confused as to what Protein Waste Products exactly is...
is it the same as just plain ole' Protein? sounds kind of gross...

What initially causes kidney/liver damage in dogs?
Is it the type of food they eat?? Is there anything that can be done to prevent it?

You may remember but I believe it was because of You that I started
feeding Riley RAW... Remember he had that bad reaction to the Lamb in the Primal. He really Loved it and was doing okay on it, but he always seemed Hungry... and then his old Vet, here in the City, really scared me and was Really Against it. He seems to be a pretty sensitive Pup, which is why I am so excited that Canine Caviar has been working for him for so long with no issues and no visits to the vet with any ear problems or skin issues. I think that I would rather feed raw than a canned food with that Carrageenan in it.... ?!
I'll just repost the CC quote that I put in the earlier post:

Quote from CC: ""A buildup of protein waste products causes kidney or liver damage. High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease. A high-protein diet may cause liver or kidney problems because the body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.""


I'm not sure where you're going with the first part of this. In post #26 you said "That first Paragraph with some Bolded stuff is Absolutely TRUE!! I have an uncle and a cousin who are both on kidney dialysis." -- so you first agreed with the CC quote that says protein causes liver/kidney damage. Now in the post above you're saying "I already know about the protein not causing kidney/liver damage but being bad if a dog already has kidney/liver damage."

So, I'm scratching my head in trying to figure out where you are on that. I haz confusions.

As for the rest....eeesh, that's like an entire semester I had in nursing school! But I'll give some of it a shot. Protein is basically just different combos of amino acids. Protein waste is what naturally happens when digestion of the proteins occurs. ALL digestion results in waste, otherwise we wouldn't need toilets, which might be nice . Some of the waste made from prot digestion is like urea, creatinine, uric acid, water (of course) and I'm sure a few other things.

Liver or kidney damage can be caused by a huge number of things....genetics, injury, toxins, medications, cardiac probs (so easily affect kidneys), blood pressure, infections (bacteria, viral), structural issues (ie, Shunt), diabetes and I'm sure many more things I'm not thinking of.

Liver/kidney damage is not caused by protein (or carbs etc). The only way I can think of 'food' damaging is if the food contained toxins or carcinogens or whatnot, but again - that's not the *food* itself. Now excess fatty foods can cause all sorts of probs, but that's another story.

As for preventing it, I'm sure there are lots of schools of thought out there. I'm of the belief that a reasonable diet and good exercise goes a long way toward disease prevention in doggies. You've always been one to really research what Riley is eating, so I can't imagine that anything is getting in his little body that would really cause damage, ya know? Like you, I just try my best to be mindful of ingredients and I read stuff, and I learn from people on here.

The bottom line is that Riley is doing incredible on CC, so I don't think you have to worry much.

All I was trying to get at earlier was my concern over the incorrect info provided by CC. I'd be concerned whether it was CC, Primal, Champion, NV, Stellas...you name it. That's why I think this section is great, bc it's here to discuss this stuff and be aware of it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:24 PM   #42
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O.k. so...the canned variety I just bought is the Venison in the pink can and it does not contain carageenan. The ingredients are: Venison, water sufficient for processing, venison tripe, liver and guar gum.
This must be the 'new' formula?

The dry food I bought is the grain free Wilderness ALS formula and the phosphorus level is: .8% min. and the protein is 26% min.

The ingredients are: Venison meal, split peas, yeast culture, lamb fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sun-cured alfalfa, sun-cured kelp, FOS, calcium proteinate, sodium chloride, lecithin, choline chloride, parsley, fenugreek, peppermint, taurine, selenium, whole clove garlic, vitamin E, zinc proteinate, vitamin C, papaya, rose hips, yucca schidigera extract, niacin, beta-carotene, manganese proeteinate, vitamin D3, biotin, vitamin A, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, potassium proteinate, folic acid.

I do know they are 4 and 4 1/2 star foods on the rating charts and it contains none of the ingredients to avoid on the Dog Food Project website.

This gets so confusing to someone who knows just enough to get herself in trouble! lol! Is there anything in here that I need to be concerned about?

All I know for sure is that Moo has only been eating this for a couple of days and she isn't licking or scratching anywhere and it's nice to see her actually get to rest. Oh, and no doggie breath or dog food breath after her meals.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:07 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by RileyDC View Post
OOOOMG!! I am going to have to look at my labels more closely, now!!
I'm not so sure I want to be feeding Riley Carrageenan!!

I have fed WERUVA canned. I am Happy to see a few of their formulas has none!!
But I see a few do!!
I only feed it occassionally.... Like I will mix a teeny bit in with kibble.
And, I like that you can get the Weruva in Small cans.

Weruva - People Food for Pets - Dog Cuisine - Human Style
There are quite a few canned foods w/out carrageenan. We've tried Weruva too, they love it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseslevi View Post
I did manage to get a phone call back from Canine Caviar today after getting the run around earlier. I spoke with Amy, I told her that I was questioning the statement made on the about us page....that using the food would reduce the risk of cancer, when 3 of the 4 canned varieties listed contained a cancer causing agent. She told me that they have reformulated the canned variety to include a non-cancer causing gum thickener. It is on the market now, but so is the old formula. If you read ingredients, look for the canned variety that do not have carrageenan gum listed. She also told me that they would be updating the web site to show the changes. I told her that I was happy that she called me back and feel much better about the food.

Meanwhile still cleaning out my cupboards to make sure I don't have anything here with questionable ingredients.
Thank you so much for this info, I am so happy they're using something else other than carrageenan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by my2boyz View Post
O.k. so...the canned variety I just bought is the Venison in the pink can and it does not contain carageenan. The ingredients are: Venison, water sufficient for processing, venison tripe, liver and guar gum.
This must be the 'new' formula?

The dry food I bought is the grain free Wilderness ALS formula and the phosphorus level is: .8% min. and the protein is 26% min.

The ingredients are: Venison meal, split peas, yeast culture, lamb fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sun-cured alfalfa, sun-cured kelp, FOS, calcium proteinate, sodium chloride, lecithin, choline chloride, parsley, fenugreek, peppermint, taurine, selenium, whole clove garlic, vitamin E, zinc proteinate, vitamin C, papaya, rose hips, yucca schidigera extract, niacin, beta-carotene, manganese proeteinate, vitamin D3, biotin, vitamin A, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, potassium proteinate, folic acid.

I do know they are 4 and 4 1/2 star foods on the rating charts and it contains none of the ingredients to avoid on the Dog Food Project website.

This gets so confusing to someone who knows just enough to get herself in trouble! lol! Is there anything in here that I need to be concerned about?

All I know for sure is that Moo has only been eating this for a couple of days and she isn't licking or scratching anywhere and it's nice to see her actually get to rest. Oh, and no doggie breath or dog food breath after her meals.
Yes, it looks like you got the new version. This link lists all the different vegetable gums, emulsifiers, stabilisers, etc. Food Additives Guide (400-495)
Guar Gum: Derived from the Seeds of Cyamoposis tetragonolobus of Indian origin; fed to cattle in the US; can cause nausea, flatulence and cramps, may reduced cholesterol levels.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:31 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
I'll just repost the CC quote that I put in the earlier post:

Quote from CC: ""A buildup of protein waste products causes kidney or liver damage. High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease. A high-protein diet may cause liver or kidney problems because the body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.""


I'm not sure where you're going with the first part of this. In post #26 you said "That first Paragraph with some Bolded stuff is Absolutely TRUE!! I have an uncle and a cousin who are both on kidney dialysis." -- so you first agreed with the CC quote that says protein causes liver/kidney damage. Now in the post above you're saying "I already know about the protein not causing kidney/liver damage but being bad if a dog already has kidney/liver damage."

So, I'm scratching my head in trying to figure out where you are on that. I haz confusions.

As for the rest....eeesh, that's like an entire semester I had in nursing school! But I'll give some of it a shot. Protein is basically just different combos of amino acids. Protein waste is what naturally happens when digestion of the proteins occurs. ALL digestion results in waste, otherwise we wouldn't need toilets, which might be nice . Some of the waste made from prot digestion is like urea, creatinine, uric acid, water (of course) and I'm sure a few other things.

Liver or kidney damage can be caused by a huge number of things....genetics, injury, toxins, medications, cardiac probs (so easily affect kidneys), blood pressure, infections (bacteria, viral), structural issues (ie, Shunt), diabetes and I'm sure many more things I'm not thinking of.

Liver/kidney damage is not caused by protein (or carbs etc). The only way I can think of 'food' damaging is if the food contained toxins or carcinogens or whatnot, but again - that's not the *food* itself. Now excess fatty foods can cause all sorts of probs, but that's another story.

As for preventing it, I'm sure there are lots of schools of thought out there. I'm of the belief that a reasonable diet and good exercise goes a long way toward disease prevention in doggies. You've always been one to really research what Riley is eating, so I can't imagine that anything is getting in his little body that would really cause damage, ya know? Like you, I just try my best to be mindful of ingredients and I read stuff, and I learn from people on here.

The bottom line is that Riley is doing incredible on CC, so I don't think you have to worry much.

All I was trying to get at earlier was my concern over the incorrect info provided by CC. I'd be concerned whether it was CC, Primal, Champion, NV, Stellas...you name it. That's why I think this section is great, bc it's here to discuss this stuff and be aware of it.

Yes! There it is!!

Quote from CC: ""A buildup of protein waste products causes kidney or liver damage. High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease. A high-protein diet may cause liver or kidney problems because the body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.""

In Post #37 you quoted:
What CC said "too much protein causes liver and kidney damage"
I just didn't see that in that paragraph.
I see where they have the word "may" in there in the bolded red sentence...
That usually means, it May, or it May Not. That is not a definitive that they believe it absolutely does. That is why I didn't think that paragraph was Untrue. I will say that I think it can be very misleading to some people.
This is the stuff we learn in law school courses... and what happens when looking at legal papers all day at a law firm.
Hoping that clears it up a little for you.
I really did believe that that paragraph was fine.... but I think that they Definitely need to revamp it or remove it altogether as not to further confuse their consumers.

They are still in the process of revamping their website and aren't finished just yet. I shoot them an email to bring it to their attention along with a few other things.

Thanks So Much for all the other info. you shared!!
That's a Lot to remember!!

I agree that all of this section is great for all the info. good and bad.
I am constantly learning and researching new things. It does have my head spinning at times...
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:34 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RileyDC http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ima...s/viewpost.gif
OOOOMG!! I am going to have to look at my labels more closely, now!!
I'm not so sure I want to be feeding Riley Carrageenan!!

I have fed WERUVA canned. I am Happy to see a few of their formulas has none!!
But I see a few do!!
I only feed it occassionally.... Like I will mix a teeny bit in with kibble.
And, I like that you can get the Weruva in Small cans.

Weruva - People Food for Pets - Dog Cuisine - Human Style

There are quite a few canned foods w/out carrageenan. We've tried Weruva too, they love it!

******************

My cans of CC don't have Carrageenan!
I'm so psyched!!
BUT, I think I like the Weruva better.
It just looks more appetizing...
like I could almost eat it myself! LOL!!
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