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Old 08-12-2010, 01:32 PM   #1
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Default Should amount of puppy shot be determined by size of dog or brand of vaccination shot

I took my 4mth puppy to the vet for reworming. I also got his 3rd shot. I asked vetenarian about giving him the full syringe.
She said it's not the size of the dog but the brand of vaccination shot. She gave him the full dose.
I noticed he was shaking at the vet but thought maybe he was cold. My lil boy continued to shake after we came home. HE was also in too much pain to be picked up and wasn't eating. I figured it was the shot and kept an eye on him. The next morning he still wasn't eating and threw up a yellowish liquid. He is doing fine now but this made me ANGRY because he was fine before I took him to the vet. I just can't take him back to that vet and think I should find another one.
Anyone have any thoughts on this??

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Old 08-13-2010, 01:44 AM   #2
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Your vet is correct. The amount of bacteria or virus in a vaccine needed to produce an immune response would not really vary by breed.

Vaccines makes many dogs lethargic. Your vet can premedicate with Benadryl next time, but it may not make these symptoms any better.
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:19 AM   #3
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Next time your pup has a parvo/distemper booster tell the vet you want a vaccine WITHOUT Lepto in it. It's the Lepto that causes the painful reaction. We never give it to our puppies for just that reason.
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Old 08-14-2010, 03:31 AM   #4
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Raymond's Mom & Ellie May thank you for putting my mind at ease.

I wasn't sure because original vetenarian said not to give small dogs the full shot. My little girl never showed any side effects. I switched doctors because her receptionist was rude to me. My new vetenarian said it's not the size of dog but the brand of the shot. thanks to you I will follow her advice. I will make sure and request no lepto in next shot. I will also keep benedryl handy.
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Old 08-14-2010, 06:24 AM   #5
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Ours don't receive lepto either. But the vet usually splits the annual shots and give them a week apart because they are so small.

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Old 08-14-2010, 06:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y0rk13s View Post
I took my 4mth puppy to the vet for reworming. I also got his 3rd shot. I asked vetenarian about giving him the full syringe.
She said it's not the size of the dog but the brand of vaccination shot. She gave him the full dose.
I noticed he was shaking at the vet but thought maybe he was cold. My lil boy continued to shake after we came home. HE was also in too much pain to be picked up and wasn't eating. I figured it was the shot and kept an eye on him. The next morning he still wasn't eating and threw up a yellowish liquid. He is doing fine now but this made me ANGRY because he was fine before I took him to the vet. I just can't take him back to that vet and think I should find another one.
Anyone have any thoughts on this??
I'm sorry your pup had this happen. I'm glad to hear he is doing better.....Your absolutely correct concerning the dosage of the vaccine being used on small dogs. Dr. Dodds ( who is one of the world's leading researchers of vaccines and adverse reaction) agrees wholeheartedly that the dosage of most vaccines is too large for a small dog. Which will increase the likely hood that a small dog will suffer adverse reactions from this......
But having said that I doubt you'll find a vet that will decrease the dosage for a small dog....

Vaccine manufacturers work off a "one size fits all" model for vaccines. A 140lb. dog will get the same dose as a 4lb. dog. Dr.Dodds says you can have the vet split the dose for a small dog, that it still works just as good as a full dose. The USDA told Dr.Dodds that the manufacturer makes the vaccine up to ten times more powerful necessary. Dr. Pitcairn warns, that "giving half of 100 billion viruses is still 50 billion." and will not prevent vaccine- induced illness.


I would like to also point out that a vaccine should be given alone, never on the same day as worming, administering heartworm products, flea products or when a pup is not feeling well or ill or when getting surgery......The vaccines should be spaced at least 3-4 weeks apart from any of this.......Not doing so increase the possibility and probability for an adverse reaction.......

If a combo vaccine was used that will also increase a reaction, in particular with a small dog.....A monovalent vaccine should be used......

The symptoms your pup had certainly does look to be connected to the vaccine. Adverse events may be associated with the antigen, adjuvant, carrier, preservative, or a combination .....

Vaccines are known by scientists to cause serious adverse reactions many (but not all) of which are listed below:
Immediately or up to 3 days after the shot:
Vomiting
Sore joints
Abdominal tenderness
Facial swelling
Fever or lethargy
Circulatory shock
Loss of consciousness
Death


You may want to look for a vet who is more knowledgeable about vaccines ( as in doing core and non- core vaccines) and small dogs, for his sake. Better still, find a holistic vet who’ll know how to vaccinate, or not vaccinate, without harming your dog and already use monovalent vaccines.....Good luck on your search.......

I just saw your post that you did have a vet who did recommend the smaller dose for your pup. You might want consider going back there.........
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The joy found in the companionship of a pet is a blessing not given to everyone.
The two most powerful words when we’re in struggle: me too..

Last edited by jp4m2; 08-14-2010 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 08-14-2010, 06:57 AM   #7
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Are the 'annual shots' even necessary? I talked to Mylo's and Mikki's breeder and she told me that the basic immunisation is enough for lifetime and that a rabies shot should only be given if the tetering (sp?) shows not enough antibodies.
My cousin in Germany is a vet and he told me once that the shots are a major source of income for him and admitted that many of the shots are not really necessary...
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:12 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom View Post
Are the 'annual shots' even necessary? I talked to Mylo's and Mikki's breeder and she told me that the basic immunisation is enough for lifetime and that a rabies shot should only be given if the tetering (sp?) shows not enough antibodies.
My cousin in Germany is a vet and he told me once that the shots are a major source of income for him and admitted that many of the shots are not really necessary...
If you listen to most vets they will try and convince you that annuals are needed but they are incorrect.....

Once a dogs immune it is most likely immune for life....Here are quotes from the experts....

In a paper published over 10 years ago, Schultz provided the following analogy:
An important question to ask yourself is: “What do we do to ensure that children who are vaccinated at an early age, usually less than 6 years of age, still have immunity at 20, 40, 60, or 90 years of age?” Nothing! We don’t measure titers in people, and we don’t routinely vaccinate adults. We rely on the memory cells of the immune system. Since vaccines for people are similar in many ways to canine or feline vaccines, since the immune system of a person is similar to that of an animal, and since immunity persists for the life of a person (average 70+ years), then why wouldn’t immunity from canine or feline vaccines persist for 10 to 15 years?

__________________________________________________ ____________
We don't repeat vaccinations for parvo and distemper because we need vaccines more than once to form immunity. They are repeated for two basic reasons only: Habit, and to catch those few individuals who for some reason don't respond to the first vaccination. A single immunizing dose of a modified live virus vaccine - in other words, one vaccine that works - will form long term, probably lifetime, immunity to parvo and distemper. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII; 2000;
__________________________________________________ _____________

The AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force in 2003 note that MLV vaccines are likely to provide lifelong immunity, stating “when MLV vaccines are used to immunize a dog, memory cells develop and likely persist for the life of the animal” They recommend boosters every three years, but Dr. Schultz, Dr. Dodds, and Dr. Pitcairn all say this is too often. Dr. Dodds compares immunity to," Once you’re pregnant, being more pregnant isn't useful." If the dog is immune to the disease, he's also immune to the virus in the "booster" vaccine.
__________________________________________________ _______________

If you are nervous you can do a parvo/distemper titer at one year of age, but the correlation between post-vaccine sero-conversion to these two diseases, and protection from the disease throughout the dog's life, is extremely high. Parvo and distemper are almost unheard of in vaccinated adult dogs, or adult dogs, period. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII, 2000; "Vaccines and Vaccinations: Issue for the 21st Century", Richard B. Ford and Ronald D. Schultz

__________________________________________________ _____________

One of the veterinary pioneers, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, president of the nonprofit animal version of the Red Cross called Hemopet, reported that the recommendations for annual vaccines were just that -- recommendations. They were not based on any scientific evidence.
The recommendations for annual vaccination were put forth jointly by the United States Department of Agriculture and the drug companies, more than twenty years ago. And veterinary medicine has continued to do it that way because, well, that’s the way it’s always been done.
__________________________________________________ ______________

"Veterinarians are charging customers $36 million a year for vaccinations that are not necessary," said Bob Rogers, a vet in Spring who adopted a reduced vaccine schedule. "Not only are these vaccines unnecessary, they're causing harm to pets."
__________________________________________________ _______________
Take out 1 year of rabies vaccination and the consequential office visit-- just for dogs -- and the average small-practice vet's income drops from approximately $87,000 to $25,000 -- and this doesn't include cats or other vaccinations! Next To Kin
__________________________________________________ ______________

Anecdotally, Ronald Schultz reports:
I have also been told by many practitioners that: “I believe the duration of immunity for some vaccines like distemper, parvovirus and hepatitis is many years, but until I find another way to get the client into my office on a regular basis I’m going to keep recommending vaccines annually”.107(Schultz, R.D. 2007. )
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Bob Rogers DVM: Every year over 30 thousand dogs and cats in the U.S. die from adverse reactions from unnecessary vaccines. It has been ten years since the article first appeared in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association entitled “Are we Vaccinating too much?” in which and Dr Ron Schultz stated, ”Clients are paying for something with no effect except the risk of an adverse reaction”.
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The joy found in the companionship of a pet is a blessing not given to everyone.
The two most powerful words when we’re in struggle: me too..

Last edited by jp4m2; 08-14-2010 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:15 AM   #9
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I agree with you one MILLION percent. Muffin my then 1.5 year old almost died from a rabies shot and if I had not found the most amazing holist Vet in the entire world, she would be dead. She is now blind in one eye, but she is okay now. She previously could not walk, would not eat, would scream in pain if she were petted, and countless other horrors. My Vet gave me a REAL education about shots, especially rabies and that they give the same amount of shot to a tiny yorkie as they do to a GREAT DANE. HELLLOOO. Well, she is crusading to change all that. One book you may want to read is "Scared Poopless" about dog food and also, I'm not sure if it includes info on vaccines. Got to check. But you are one MILLION percent correct!!! Take it from MUFFIN :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp4m2 View Post
I'm sorry your pup had this happen. I'm glad to hear he is doing better.....Your absolutely correct concerning the dosage of the vaccine being used on small dogs. Dr. Dodds ( who is one of the world's leading researchers of vaccines and adverse reaction) agrees wholeheartedly that the dosage of most vaccines is too large for a small dog. Which will increase the likely hood that a small dog will suffer adverse reactions from this......
But having said that I doubt you'll find a vet that will decrease the dosage for a small dog....

Vaccine manufacturers work off a "one size fits all" model for vaccines. A 140lb. dog will get the same dose as a 4lb. dog. Dr.Dodds says you can have the vet split the dose for a small dog, that it still works just as good as a full dose. The USDA told Dr.Dodds that the manufacturer makes the vaccine up to ten times more powerful necessary. Dr. Pitcairn warns, that "giving half of 100 billion viruses is still 50 billion." and will not prevent vaccine- induced illness.


I would like to also point out that a vaccine should be given alone, never on the same day as worming, administering heartworm products, flea products or when a pup is not feeling well or ill or when getting surgery......The vaccines should be spaced at least 3-4 weeks apart from any of this.......Not doing so increase the possibility and probability for an adverse reaction.......

If a combo vaccine was used that will also increase a reaction, in particular with a small dog.....A monovalent vaccine should be used......

The symptoms your pup had certainly does look to be connected to the vaccine. Adverse events may be associated with the antigen, adjuvant, carrier, preservative, or a combination .....

Vaccines are known by scientists to cause serious adverse reactions many (but not all) of which are listed below:
Immediately or up to 3 days after the shot:
Vomiting
Sore joints
Abdominal tenderness
Facial swelling
Fever or lethargy
Circulatory shock
Loss of consciousness
Death


You may want to look for a vet who is more knowledgeable about vaccines ( as in doing core and non- core vaccines) and small dogs, for his sake. Better still, find a holistic vet who’ll know how to vaccinate, or not vaccinate, without harming your dog and already use monovalent vaccines.....Good luck on your search.......

I just saw your post that you did have a vet who did recommend the smaller dose for your pup. You might want consider going back there.........
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:17 AM   #10
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My vet will not give the full dosage to any of my dogs or puppies. He says it is the same dosage as a saint bernard pup and he feels it is too much for the little guys. He always squirts some out in the sink and then gives them the shot. I advise all my new puppy owners to discuss the dosage with their vet.
I have used this vet for many years and he teases me that when I have a litter born he wants to come over. He says he wants to be a part of a normal delivery not an emergency situation.
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broodizt View Post
I agree with you one MILLION percent. Muffin my then 1.5 year old almost died from a rabies shot and if I had not found the most amazing holist Vet in the entire world, she would be dead. She is now blind in one eye, but she is okay now. She previously could not walk, would not eat, would scream in pain if she were petted, and countless other horrors. My Vet gave me a REAL education about shots, especially rabies and that they give the same amount of shot to a tiny yorkie as they do to a GREAT DANE. HELLLOOO. Well, she is crusading to change all that. One book you may want to read is "Scared Poopless" about dog food and also, I'm not sure if it includes info on vaccines. Got to check. But you are one MILLION percent correct!!! Take it from MUFFIN :-)
I checked, and SCARED POOPLESS does deal with vaccines. This book is an EYE OPENER. And so is their website Top Natural Holistic Dog Health Care Book: Multiple Award Winner. The website name is Dogs4Dogs.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TO ALL- A MUST READ both book and website.

Last edited by broodizt; 08-14-2010 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by broodizt View Post
I agree with you one MILLION percent. Muffin my then 1.5 year old almost died from a rabies shot and if I had not found the most amazing holist Vet in the entire world, she would be dead. She is now blind in one eye, but she is okay now. She previously could not walk, would not eat, would scream in pain if she were petted, and countless other horrors. My Vet gave me a REAL education about shots, especially rabies and that they give the same amount of shot to a tiny yorkie as they do to a GREAT DANE. HELLLOOO. Well, she is crusading to change all that. One book you may want to read is "Scared Poopless" about dog food and also, I'm not sure if it includes info on vaccines. Got to check. But you are one MILLION percent correct!!! Take it from MUFFIN :-)
That is terrible!!.....I am so sorry your Muffin had to suffer from this so needlessly.....How awful for her and you!.......It's a darn shame so many people are led to believe they are being a "responsible" pet owner and are being told to do these things when they are doing damage to our pets. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti vaccine but there is a safer way to do them. What we are being told to do is not based on science but based on old habits and unproven recommendations. The pharmaceutical company is surely not going to do the studies to find the MAXIMUM time a pet has immunity, so we have to hope people like Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schults can/ will do them for our pets.....

This is concerning the rabies vaccine.....

“Rabies is the vaccine most associated with adverse reactions because it’s so potent,” says renowned veterinarian Dr. Jean Dodds. “We have a lot of bad reactions, including fatal ones. They usually occur within two to three weeks after vaccination, although they can appear up to 45 days later. Because the rabies vaccine is a neurogenic protein, meaning it affects the nervous system, what you will often see is seizures or seizure-like disorders like stumbling, ataxia, dementia, and some demyelination, where the animals become wobbly and don’t have proper motor skills. You can also have an autoimmune-like destruction of tissues, skin, blood, joints, the liver or kidneys.” Dr. Dodds adds that animals already ill with immune-related diseases such as cancer can be even more negatively affected. “Often, this is the last thing that causes the animal’s demise.”

Scientific data published in 1992 by Michel Aubert and his research team demonstrated that dogs were immune to a rabies challenge 5 years after vaccination, while Dr. Schultz’s serological studies documented antibody titer counts at levels known to confer immunity to rabies 7 years post-vaccination. This data strongly suggests that state laws requiring annual or triennial rabies boosters for dogs are redundant. Because the rabies vaccine is the most potent of the veterinary vaccines and associated with significant adverse reactions, it should not be given more often than is necessary to maintain immunity. Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints, blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver,
bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression; seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations.


I'm so glad for you that you where able to get help for your Muffin.....You could look into a medical exemption form for Muffin so she won't be subjected to any more rabies reactions. The reactions tend to get worse as each one is given...

Three more excellent books are:

Stop the Shots!: Are Vaccinations Killing Our Pets: by John Clifton

What Vets Don't Tell You About Vaccines: by Catherine O`Driscoll

Shock to the System: The Facts About Animal Vaccination, Pet Food And How to Keep Your Pets Healthy By: Catherine O`Driscoll


Good luck....
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Old 08-14-2010, 08:02 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp4m2 View Post
If you listen to most vets they will try and convince you that annuals are needed but they are incorrect.....

Once a dogs immune it is most likely immune for life....Here are quotes from the experts....

In a paper published over 10 years ago, Schultz provided the following analogy:
An important question to ask yourself is: “What do we do to ensure that children who are vaccinated at an early age, usually less than 6 years of age, still have immunity at 20, 40, 60, or 90 years of age?” Nothing! We don’t measure titers in people, and we don’t routinely vaccinate adults. We rely on the memory cells of the immune system. Since vaccines for people are similar in many ways to canine or feline vaccines, since the immune system of a person is similar to that of an animal, and since immunity persists for the life of a person (average 70+ years), then why wouldn’t immunity from canine or feline vaccines persist for 10 to 15 years?

__________________________________________________ ____________
We don't repeat vaccinations for parvo and distemper because we need vaccines more than once to form immunity. They are repeated for two basic reasons only: Habit, and to catch those few individuals who for some reason don't respond to the first vaccination. A single immunizing dose of a modified live virus vaccine - in other words, one vaccine that works - will form long term, probably lifetime, immunity to parvo and distemper. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII; 2000;
__________________________________________________ _____________

The AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force in 2003 note that MLV vaccines are likely to provide lifelong immunity, stating “when MLV vaccines are used to immunize a dog, memory cells develop and likely persist for the life of the animal” They recommend boosters every three years, but Dr. Schultz, Dr. Dodds, and Dr. Pitcairn all say this is too often. Dr. Dodds compares immunity to," Once you’re pregnant, being more pregnant isn't useful." If the dog is immune to the disease, he's also immune to the virus in the "booster" vaccine.
__________________________________________________ _______________

If you are nervous you can do a parvo/distemper titer at one year of age, but the correlation between post-vaccine sero-conversion to these two diseases, and protection from the disease throughout the dog's life, is extremely high. Parvo and distemper are almost unheard of in vaccinated adult dogs, or adult dogs, period. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII, 2000; "Vaccines and Vaccinations: Issue for the 21st Century", Richard B. Ford and Ronald D. Schultz

__________________________________________________ _____________

One of the veterinary pioneers, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, president of the nonprofit animal version of the Red Cross called Hemopet, reported that the recommendations for annual vaccines were just that -- recommendations. They were not based on any scientific evidence.
The recommendations for annual vaccination were put forth jointly by the United States Department of Agriculture and the drug companies, more than twenty years ago. And veterinary medicine has continued to do it that way because, well, that’s the way it’s always been done.
__________________________________________________ ______________

"Veterinarians are charging customers $36 million a year for vaccinations that are not necessary," said Bob Rogers, a vet in Spring who adopted a reduced vaccine schedule. "Not only are these vaccines unnecessary, they're causing harm to pets."
__________________________________________________ _______________
Take out 1 year of rabies vaccination and the consequential office visit-- just for dogs -- and the average small-practice vet's income drops from approximately $87,000 to $25,000 -- and this doesn't include cats or other vaccinations! Next To Kin
__________________________________________________ ______________

Anecdotally, Ronald Schultz reports:
I have also been told by many practitioners that: “I believe the duration of immunity for some vaccines like distemper, parvovirus and hepatitis is many years, but until I find another way to get the client into my office on a regular basis I’m going to keep recommending vaccines annually”.107(Schultz, R.D. 2007. )
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Bob Rogers DVM: Every year over 30 thousand dogs and cats in the U.S. die from adverse reactions from unnecessary vaccines. It has been ten years since the article first appeared in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association entitled “Are we Vaccinating too much?” in which and Dr Ron Schultz stated, ”Clients are paying for something with no effect except the risk of an adverse reaction”.
Thank you soooooo much!!! That's what I really needed to quiet my worries and my babies will NOT, I repeat NOT! get any unnecessary vaccinations!!!
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Old 08-14-2010, 08:11 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by broodizt View Post
I checked, and SCARED POOPLESS does deal with vaccines. This book is an EYE OPENER. And so is their website Top Natural Holistic Dog Health Care Book: Multiple Award Winner. The website name is Dogs4Dogs.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TO ALL- A MUST READ both book and website.

Isn't that a fabulous book? It's a must have for any pet owner IMO.
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Old 08-14-2010, 08:28 AM   #15
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Thank you soooooo much!!! That's what I really needed to quiet my worries and my babies will NOT, I repeat NOT! get any unnecessary vaccinations!!!
I have to say that when I started reading about vaccines almost 3 years ago I was shacked and confused. I kept thinking how could this be true that boosters are not needed????....All I kept hearing from vets was: "Are you up to date with your vaccines?"...."Are you current?"......""Have you done your yearlies?".....And then that reminder card would come in the mail....That's when I started looking into vaccines......I got really mad and then I was totally disgusted with the profession that they would pretend to not know this information and that I was being treated like a fool.........No more.....

This doesn't happen now......I tell them we are immune and we don't do boosters.....Most of the time the subject is dropped but sometimes I've had them try and continue to tell me how beneficial it would be to have the annuals done and how safe they are.....Inside I would be boiling mad, but I would stick to my guns....The answer is still no, no boosters.....I even had a female vet tell me that vaccines are so safe and beneficial that she and her colleagues administer the rabies vaccine to themselves. ...All I thought was, what an dumb azz.......Needless to say I no longer go there......
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