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Old 07-09-2010, 09:01 PM   #1
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Default Can we go out? Is Vet over vaccinating?

Sorry in advance for the long post

Today we went for Maxx's 16-week puppy booster shot, it was our second Vet visit. Even though my pup was up-to-date on shots when I purchased him, the vet insists on giving him another booster in 4 weeks when he will be 20 weeks old.

Question #1: Maxx and I are both bored staying in doors--when will he be "safe" for out door exploration and puppy classes?

Question #2: Is the Vet just wanting my money--or is this booster needed? (I would've asked while I was there, but I thought the next shot she was referring to during my visit today was the Rabies shot. I didn't know it would be another Booster, plus Rabies shot, until I left and looked at my Vet bill which lists what will be done at the next visit.) On our first Vet visit she stated he was "pretty young" when he got his other shots in the breeders care--so I guess that's her logic behind giving the shot at 20 weeks?


Here is an overview of the shots he's had thus far from the breeder's care and from my current two vet visits:

Given during Breeder/Seller care:
April 25, 4 weeks old: neo-par shot (canine parvovirus vaccine), Intra nasal, and Pyrantal Worming
May 9, 6 weeks old: galaxy 5-way (Canine Distemper, Adenovirus Type 2, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus Vaccine), and Pyrantal Worming
May 23, 8 weeks old: galaxy 5-way(Canine Distemper, Adenovirus Type 2, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus Vaccine), and Pyrantal Worming

Given by my Vet:
June 8, 12 weeks old : DAPP Booster #1 (distemper, Adenovirus, parainfluenza, parvo), Heartguard plus given to take home and feed monthly
July 8,16 weeks old: DAPP Booster #2, and again he takes the Heartguard tablet plus at home.

For the next appointment, she has the following things listed to do:
1.Heartworm Antigen Canine
2.Rabies Vaccine
3.DAPP Booster #3

Any suggestions, or advice on if I can to take him outside soon and if he should get the next booster at 20 weeks or not, would be appreciated.

Our visit today was $86 for an "exam" and booster. It would be nice to save that money if the shot is not really needed.
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:13 PM   #2
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:35 PM   #3
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She might be giving the shots all over again bc his 1st vaccination was given at 6 weeks of age...too young.

Make sure on his next visit, have the 3rd round of shots & do the rabies a few weeks later. Adverse reactions can occur in some dogs if given together.

You shouldn't take him outside or interact w/other dogs until he's had all his vaccinations.

Here's a good link from the YT library:
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:24 AM   #4
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Wow, I can't blame the vet for being concerned about the vaccine history. Too many were given too soon and now it's hard to say whether he is protected or not. You could do titers to see if he can be done, but that would be even more money. DAPP and rabies shouldn't be given on the same day. Not sure why they are going to do heartworm testing on a 20 week old, esp. if he has been on preventative. He shouldn't be allowed to play outside until 1-2 weeks after his last booster. Come to think of it though, he did have them at 8, 12, and 16 weeks, so he is likely protected (within the next coule weeks). Really vet's call and/or titer.
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:47 AM   #5
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Thanks for the responses thus far...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo View Post
She might be giving the shots all over again bc his 1st vaccination was given at 6 weeks of age...too young.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
Wow, I can't blame the vet for being concerned about the vaccine history. Too many were given too soon and now it's hard to say whether he is protected or not.
I understand the 6 week shot was too young---so did it negate the 8wk?

Thanks for providing the link Mimimomo---as one of the doctors stated in the article I read through that link---"Dr. Schultz has gone on record telling dog owners that if their dog receives a DHP (Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvo) shot at 12 weeks and then again once more, he may not need another vaccine for the rest of his life!"

That information confuses me, since he got those (12 & 16 wks) shots from the vet--why would he need a 3rd?

I hate to have to put him through an extra shot. This time the took him out of the room and gave him the shot privately where I could not view it but could still hear him yelp/cry (the first time they gave it to him in front of me--so I don't understand why privacy this time?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo View Post
Make sure on his next visit, have the 3rd round of shots & do the rabies a few weeks later. Adverse reactions can occur in some dogs if given together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
DAPP and rabies shouldn't be given on the same day.
Thanks for that info. I will have them wait on the Rabies!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
Not sure why they are going to do heartworm testing on a 20 week old, esp. if he has been on preventative. He shouldn't be allowed to play outside until 1-2 weeks after his last booster.
I thought that was odd as well---I will do some research & I will ask their reasoning when I make the next appointment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
Come to think of it though, he did have them at 8, 12, and 16 weeks, so he is likely protected (within the next couple weeks).
That's what I'd like to believe, I will wait a week or two before, but I think we will explore more but I will keep him away from unknown dogs/areas of grass.

Last edited by Dany001; 07-10-2010 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:28 PM   #6
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I know that some puppies will not form immunity due to improper timing of vaccines and typically earlier vaccination is clearly a doomed strategy and with more frequent vaccinations it makes the problem worse. That's maybe why your Vet wants to give your dog another series of shots. Maybe your vet is concerned the 8 week shot didn't provide full immunity due to the shots being given so young and only 2 weeks apart. 4 weeks is just insane and I even think 6 weeks is too early, but have heard of many vaccine companies and Vets saying 6 weeks if fine. 8 weeks is typically ideal to start with vaccines with them spaced out 3-4 weeks apart. I personally would think the 8, 12 and 16 week shots would be more than suffice, but could see the concern your Vet may have and Vet's always like to err on the side of caution - can't blame them.

My friend had a very similar situation. Her small yorkie puppy was given his first series of shots by the breeder at 6.9 weeks than thereafter every 2.5 weeks up to 10.9 weeks. He was then given another shot at 13 weeks by accident (long story). My friends new Vet wanted to give the dog another series at I believe 19 weeks of age just because of the timing/frequency of the shots. Her dog is perfectly healthy from it all and it didn't effect him at all. She looked into titters as well, but they are tricky and don't necessary show full immunity.

I thought it was pretty normal and very standard for a dog to get their heart-worm test at 24 weeks of age. Zoey did and so have a lot of my friends puppies as well..

I would also, like others have recommended ,definitely split up the DAPP and rabies shot. I actually think all DAPP/DHPP shots should be given alone at all times. My friends dog had a bad reaction when she was given DHPP and Bordatella Intranasal in one visit.

Most puppies can go outside, in a safe environment (one that is closed off
from other animals, etc. one's yard), as early as 2wks after their 2nd series of shots and be safe, but puppies should not go into common areas where other dogs go until they're old enough and have been properly vaccinated. It's BEST to wait until 2 weeks after he's had his 3 main sets of
vaccinations to be absolutely safe.
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:52 PM   #7
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JMO

From, what I understand, the reason for giving them 3 shots is because the immunity they get from the mother loses it's protectiveness at different times, depending on a variety of factors. But somewhere between 9 and 16 weeks.

Any shots given while the puppy is still protected by the mothers immunity is render useless. So they give the shots at 3 week intervals to assure they are protected.

However, all of the mother's immunity should be out of their system by 16 weeks, therefore the shot at 16 weeks should be all they need, and any shots after 16 weeks are unnecessary.

Again, this is just my understanding.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK View Post
JMO

From, what I understand, the reason for giving them 3 shots is because the immunity they get from the mother loses it's protectiveness at different times, depending on a variety of factors. But somewhere between 9 and 16 weeks.

Any shots given while the puppy is still protected by the mothers immunity is render useless. So they give the shots at 3 week intervals to assure they are protected.

However, all of the mother's immunity should be out of their system by 16 weeks, therefore the shot at 16 weeks should be all they need, and any shots after 16 weeks are unnecessary.

Again, this is just my understanding.
Dr. W. Jean Dodd's vaccination protocol is now being adopted by ALL 27 North
American veterinary schools. I highly recommend that you read this. Copy and save
it to your files. Print it and pass it out at dog fairs, cat shows, kennel club meetings,
dog parks, give a copy to
your veterinarian and groomer, etc., etc.* Get the word out.
VACCINATION NEWS FLASH
*I would like to make you aware that all 27 veterinary schools in North America are
in the process of changing their protocols for vaccinating
dogs and cats. Some of this information will present an ethical &economic challenge
to vets, and there will be skeptics.
Some organizations have come up with a political compromise suggesting
vaccinations every 3 years to appease those who fear loss of income vs.
those concerned about potential side effects. Politics, traditions, or the doctor's
economic well being should not be a factor in medical decision.
NEW PRINCIPLES OF IMMUNOLOGY
"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus
vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces an immunity which is good for the
life of the pet (ie: canine distemper,parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine
is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of
the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titer is not "boosted" nor are
more memory cells induced." Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper
unnecessary, they subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immunemediated
hemolytic anemia. "There is no scientific documentation to back up label
claims for annual administration of MLV vaccines." Puppies receive antibodies
through their mothers milk. This natural protection can last 8-14weeks. Puppies &
kittens should NOT be vaccinated at LESS than 8weeks. Maternal immunity will
neutralize the vaccine and little protection (0-38%) will be produced. Vaccination at
6 weeks will, however, delay the timing of the first highly effective vaccine.
Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart suppress rather than stimulate the immune
system. A series of vaccinations is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4 weeks
apart up to 16 weeks of age.Another vaccination given sometime after 6 months of
age (usually at 1 year 4mo) will provide lifetime immunity.
CURRENT RECOMMENDATIONS FOR DOGS
Distemper & Parvo * "According to Dr. Schultz, AVMA, 8-15-95, when a vaccinations
series given at 2, 3 & 4 months and again at 1 year with a MLV, puppies and kitten
program memory cells that survive for life, providing lifelong immunity." Dr.
Carmichael at Cornell and Dr. Schultz have studies showing immunity against
challenge at 2-10 years for canine distemper & 4 years for parvovirus. Studies for
longer duration are pending. "There are no new strains of parvovirus as one mfg.
would like to suggest. Parvovirus vaccination provides cross immunity for all types."
Hepatitis (Adenovirus) is one of the agents known to be a cause of kennel cough.
Only vaccines wi th CAV-2 should be used asCAV-1 vaccines carry the risk of
"hepatitis blue-eye" reactions & kidney damage.
**Bordetella Parainfluenza: Commonly called "Kennel cough" Recommended only for
those dogs boarded, groomed, taken to dog shows, or for any reason housed where
exposed to a lot of dogs. The intranasal vaccine provides more complete and more
rapid onset of immunity with less chance of reaction. Immunity requires 72 hours
and does not protect from every cause of kennel cough. Immunity is of short
duration (4 to 6 months).*
*RABIES There have been no reported cases of rabid dogs or cats in Harris,
Montogomery or Ft. Bend Counties [Texas], there have been rabid skunks and bats
so the potential exists. It is a killed vaccine and must be given every year.
*Lyme disease_is a tick born disease which can cause lameness, kidney failure and
heart disease in dogs. Ticks can also transmit the disease to humans. The original Ft.
Dodge killed bacteria has proven to be the most effective vaccine. Lyme disease
prevention should emphasize early removal of ticks. Amitraz collars are more
effective than Top Spot, as amitraz paralyzes the tick's mouthparts preventing
transmission of disease.
**VACCINATIONS NOT RECOMMENDED**
Multiple components in vaccines compete with each other for the immune system
and result in lesser immunity for each individual disease as well as increasing the
risk of a reaction. Canine Corona Virus is only a disease of puppies. It is rare, self
limiting (dogs get well in 3 days without treatment). Cornell & Texas A&M have only
diagnosed one case each in the last 7 years. Corona virus does not cause disease in
adult dogs.*
*Leptospirosis vaccine is a common cause of adverse reactions in dogs. Most of the
clinical cases of lepto reported in dogs in the US are caused by serovaars (or types)
grippotyphosa and bratsilvia. The vaccines contain different serovaars eanicola and
ictohemorrhagica. Cross protection is not provided and protection is short lived.
Lepto vaccine is immuno-supressive to puppies less than 16 weeks.
NEW DEVELOPMENTS: Giardia is the most common intestinal parasite of humans
inNorth America , 30% or more of all dogs & cats are infected with
giardia. It has now been demonstrated that humans can transmit giardiato dogs &
cats & vice versa. *
Heartworm preventative must be given year-round in Houston .
*VACCINES BADLY NEEDED
New vaccines in development include: Feline Immunodeficiency Virus and cat scratch
fever vaccine for cats and Ehrlichia [one of the other tick diseases, much worse than
Lymes] for dogs.
THE VIEW FROM THE TRENCHES; BUSINESS ASPECTS
Most vets recommend annual boosters and most kennel operators require them. For
years the pricing structure of vets has misled clients into thinking that the inherent
value of an annual office visit was in the "shots" they failed to emphasize the
importance of a physical exam for early detection of treatable diseases. It is my hope
that you will continue to require rabies & Kennel cough and emphasize the
importance of a recent vet exam. I also hope you will accept the new protocols and
honor these pets as currently vaccinated. Those in the boarding business who will
honor the new vaccine protocols can gain new customers who were turned away
from vet owned boarding facilities reluctant to change.
CONCLUSION
Dogs & cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, & feline
leukemia every year. Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first
annual vaccinations are completed, immunity from MLV vaccines persists for life. It
has been shown that cats over 1 year of age are immune to Feline Leukemia whether
they have been vaccinated or not. Imagine the money you will save, not to mention
less risks from side effects. PCR rabies vaccine, because it is not adjuvanted, will
mean less risk of mediated hemolytic anemia and allergic reactions are reduced by
less frequent use of vaccines as well as by avoiding unnecessary vaccines such as K-
9 Corona virus and chlamydia for cats, as well as ineffective vaccines such as
Leptospirosis and FIP. Intranasal vaccine for Rhiotracheitis and Calici virus, two
upper respiratory viruses of cats provide more complete protection than injectable
vaccines with less risk of serious reactions.
The AAHA and all 27 veterinary schools of North America are our biggest
endorsement for these new protocols.*
*Dr. Bob Rogers*
Please consider as current on all vaccinations for boarding purposes.
DOGS Initial series of puppy vaccines
1. distemper, hepatitis, parvo, parinfluenza - 3 sets one month apart concluding at
16 weeks of age.*
2. Rabies at 16 weeks of age (later is better)
3. Bordetella within last 4-6 months First annual (usually at 1 year and4 months of
age)*
1. DHP, Parvo, Rabies
2. Bordetella within last 4-6 months 2 years or older
1. Rabies with in last year
2. Bordetella within last 4-6 months
3. DHP & Parvo given anytime over 6 months of age , but not necessarily within the
last year.
Recommended: Physical exam for transmissible diseases and health risks.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK View Post
JMO

From, what I understand, the reason for giving them 3 shots is because the immunity they get from the mother loses it's protectiveness at different times, depending on a variety of factors. But somewhere between 9 and 16 weeks.

Any shots given while the puppy is still protected by the mothers immunity is render useless. So they give the shots at 3 week intervals to assure they are protected.

However, all of the mother's immunity should be out of their system by 16 weeks, therefore the shot at 16 weeks should be all they need, and any shots after 16 weeks are unnecessary.

Again, this is just my understanding.
Pretty much my understanding too except a study done not long ago seems to indicate 18 weeks is better (more pups protected), so who knows.

To the OP: It was the frequency of the vaccines at first that would concern me b/c they have to be given at the right intervals to be effective. But since they were given two weeks apart at first, that should be okay. Just with all that given, who knows what negated what... I think you can be pretty sure he is protected and a titer may be a good option. I still feel for the vet though. Besides, the first ones...were they given by a breeder? Some vets don't except breeder-given vaccines...
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:36 PM   #10
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I would take Dr. Dodd's information to your vet, voice your concern and let them know you would rather have a titer done. Definitely do not give both rabies and a DHPP shot at the same visit - wait at least two weeks inbetweeen to lessen the chances of reaction.
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
Pretty much my understanding too except a study done not long ago seems to indicate 18 weeks is better (more pups protected), so who knows.

To the OP: It was the frequency of the vaccines at first that would concern me b/c they have to be given at the right intervals to be effective. But since they were given two weeks apart at first, that should be okay. Just with all that given, who knows what negated what... I think you can be pretty sure he is protected and a titer may be a good option. I still feel for the vet though. Besides, the first ones...were they given by a breeder? Some vets don't except breeder-given vaccines...
Here's the study:

In one study of a cross section of different puppies the age at which they were able to respond to a vaccine and develop protection covered a wide period of time. At six weeks of age, 25% of the puppies could be immunized. At 9 weeks of age, 40% of the puppies were able to respond to the vaccine. The number increased to 60% by 16 weeks, and by 18 weeks of age, 95% of the puppies could be immunized.

Parvovirus: Serious Diarrhea in Puppies & Dogs
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Old 07-11-2010, 04:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Here's the study:

In one study of a cross section of different puppies the age at which they were able to respond to a vaccine and develop protection covered a wide period of time. At six weeks of age, 25% of the puppies could be immunized. At 9 weeks of age, 40% of the puppies were able to respond to the vaccine. The number increased to 60% by 16 weeks, and by 18 weeks of age, 95% of the puppies could be immunized.

Parvovirus: Serious Diarrhea in Puppies & Dogs
I would trust Dr Dodd's reccomendation over the one posted on the Foster fand Smith site. If am always sceptical when someone selling the vaccine makes the recdomendatioln.

if you went by their reccomendation, from earliest 6 weeks, to latest 20 weeks, at 3 week intervals, you would be vaccinating 5 to 6 times.
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK View Post
I would trust Dr Dodd's reccomendation over the one posted on the Foster fand Smith site. If am always sceptical when someone selling the vaccine makes the recdomendatioln.

if you went by their reccomendation, from earliest 6 weeks, to latest 20 weeks, at 3 week intervals, you would be vaccinating 5 to 6 times.

Did you read the article? It does not recommend vaccinating 5-6 times. It supports Dr. Dodd's vaccination protocol which states that the last core vaccine should be given around 16-18 weeks. That is the age that the study shows vaccines are 95% effective. Before then, maternal antibodies block their effectiveness, which is why vaccines given too early are not effective. Again, it supports Dr. Dodd's protocol that vaccinations should not be started before 9 weeks.

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Old 07-11-2010, 05:09 PM   #14
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It's
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK View Post
I would trust Dr Dodd's reccomendation over the one posted on the Foster fand Smith site. If am always sceptical when someone selling the vaccine makes the recdomendatioln.

if you went by their reccomendation, from earliest 6 weeks, to latest 20 weeks, at 3 week intervals, you would be vaccinating 5 to 6 times.
Yes, Dr. Dodd is a renowned pet vaccination expert and I'd trust her as well. It is an interesting study though. I'm pretty sure the study isn't to suggest one is to vaccinate their dogs 5 to 6 times. 3 series is pretty much the norm. The study is to show the effectiveness of vaccinations at given age points. If a puppy is vaccinated too early (4-6 weeks) it can have an affect on future vaccination shots and the effectiveness of immunity, as I think many are aware. I'm assuming the OP vet is concerned about this since the pup was vaccinated so early at 4 and 6 weeks of age and that's why they are considering another series since it may have negate the shot given at 8 weeks. This happened to a friend of mine and her pup as well. 3 series is the norm. Dr. Ron Schultz another renowned pet vaccination expert, believes that 1 series of distemper and parvo , at I believe 12 weeks of age it is, can provide immunity for a dog's entire life - pretty interesting! Titers have always interested me but I've heard so many mixed things about them and that they are not really that effective as showing immunity...
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:29 PM   #15
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To me it indicates that we may be stopping too soon, not that we aren't giving enough rounds. Personally (not recommending this to anyone. I'm not a vet or an immunologist) I like the 10, 14, and 18 week schedule...
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