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Old 04-27-2010, 04:44 PM   #1
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Default Consent to Vaccinate & Q's Q's Q's

Just curious do people's Vets here have them sign a Consent to Vaccinate? I thought this was standard practice, but my friend told me when she brought her puppy in to get an examination after getting him that her Vet (one she picked out because she didn't have one and thought he looked good - he deals with small animals in particular and had good reviews online) didn't even tell her what they were giving her puppy! He just vaccinated him and didn't even describe or warn her of any reactions that might occur or what to do in a given situation when a reaction occurs or go over a vaccination schedule with her!!

Needless to say this little guy got his Distemper (which I think he didn't even need since he already had 3 rounds) and Bordatella via intranasal (even though it's not a core vaccination and she didn't mention anything about her little guy needing to being kenneled or groomed)! With all of this her little guy threw up a little within 30 minutes on the car ride back home from the Vets!! My friend was scared, but didn't know what to do (thought it may be care sickness) and just kept a watchful eye on her little guy when they got home and luckily he was fine. However as she is doing more research about vaccinations (as well as myself) we both are just shocked by this Vet! She didn't report the reaction because she didn't know her rights at the time. Can and should she still report this and how would she go about it?

My friend really feels like screaming her head off at this Vet and I don't blame her. She feels awful that she was ignorant to the dangers and had such blind faith in this Vet and she is sick to her stomach that all her research and books she read into getting a furbaby never carried vaccination warnings or Corporate Veterinary Warnings!!

Also, this little guy got his 1st round of shots at 7 weeks I believe and it was the puppy 5 shot series ((Distemper, Adenovirus type 2 (and hepatitis), parainfluenza, and parvovirus) from the breeder she got him from. She hates the fact that it was the 5 shot series to and not the 3 shots series! He was then revaccinated every 2.5/3 weeks I believe up until around he was 12 weeks of age (when she got him). Is that too young? I've read so many different things about when to begin puppy shots. Everything from under 8 weeks is not safe and can have serious side affects to starting at 6 weeks is ideal? And that the shots should be spread out 3-4 weeks. Is there any dangers or the risk that these shots her puppy got from the breeder aren't going to be effective since the shots were given 2.5 weeks apart and what seems like so young? I believe the vaccination regime the breeder used is the "Dog Vaccines By Fort Dodge" one.

The puppy is now 4.5 almost 5 months old and is due for his Rabies shot and she is wondering if she should wait up until 6 months (24 weeks to get it) or get it it now? Not sure if there is a big difference in waiting an extra 4-6 weeks or not? I'd like to hear people's advice and thoughts.

I know she was going to talk it over with her NEW Vet. She is scared that he may have a bad reaction to the Rabies shot and I don't blame her! Can the rabies shot be given in partial doses? Does anyone know? I don't understand how a 50 pound dog and a 2.5 pound dog are given the same amount of doses in these vaccinations!!! I've heard of some Vets (although not common) given part of the usual dose of DHPP and then titer test in a few weeks and verify that your dog has immunity! Not sure if this can be done with the Rabies shot or not? I find it interesting though.

I've also heard but haven't researched something called a homeopathic remedy for the rabies vaccine called Lyssin? Does anyone have any information on that?

Does anyone titter test their furbabies? I'm thinking that maybe this little guy should get titter tested for parvo and distemper?

Sorry for such the long posts and all the questions but any insight, thoughts and recommendations would be great!
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:49 PM   #2
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I should mention that my little girl is also almost 5 months old too and is due for her Rabies shot but I'm questioning if I should wait up until she is 6 months old too. She hasn't had any reactions to any shots she has gotten though which is a good thing. I'm just so scared because I know it' a serious vaccination and she is so little!

Also I've read that contrary to believe that giving Benadryl with a shot suppresses the immune system while you’re trying to stimulate it and it really shouldn't be done - I was thinking about this for my friends little guy since he had a reaction...wasn't sure how true that was.
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Last edited by Melcakes; 04-27-2010 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:07 PM   #3
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Teddy got rabies at 16 weeks old in accordance with state law. He had a booster shot 1 year later and is now good for three years.

The vaccine you referenced is a 4-in-1 not a 5-in-1. Adenovirus type 2 is the virus that causes Hepatitis (they are not two diff things). So the vaccine, DH2PP is Distemper, Hepatitis (adenovirus type 2), parainfluenza and parvovirus.

As for rabies, it is not usually one that is titer because of state laws.

Your friend's dog having had a reaction to DH2PP would concern me on the rabies shot. Having the dog be older is irrelevant in my opinion.

Once a dog has a reaction to a vaccine, the reactions get worse and worse. If you read Brandi's story on the RIP thread, you'll see how some people are not given the facts or the options available.

At the very least, your friend should talk to her *new* vet about premedications. My understanding is that normal veterinary protocol is benadryl pre-med. I'm not a vet though so can't be sure about that. I'd also wait in the waiting room after the shot for a while. Our vet let us sit in his for about 45 mins. We combed Teddy, played with him, etc.

Yes, the dose for rabies is the same, it is not dosed by weight of the dog.

I should mention also about the benadryl -- in a dog that has NOT had an adverse reaction, like Teddy, we were informed that it was not recommended to use Benadryl or pre med drugs. We gave the shot, sat in the waiting room, and watched Teddy for several hours to make sure he was fine.

My other two dogs have had many vaccines over the years, including the *bad* ones (as the landscape has changed dramatically over time in this area) and we've never had problems.

Good luck.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:10 PM   #4
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PS you asked about titer. We have not done it, but since B&D are older, we will do it going forward. I read the other day that distemper vaccines can provide protection to some dogs for much longer than the 3 year AAHA recommended dosing. YT member Dwerten does titers.

For more info on vaccines, check out the AAHA guidelines - it is very informative. Not all vets follow these guidelines. We see AAHA accredited vets so ours do.

http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:22 PM   #5
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Also I forgot -
We sign general consents to treat, but not specific to vaccines.
The only time I've signed other consents are when procedures are done that carry risks - spay/neuter, etc.

Also as for the puppy shots. Teddy had his first shots from his breeder. He was done with all his shots, including rabies by 16 weeks old. He also had bordatella as have all my dogs.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:27 PM   #6
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The "new" recommendations for toy breeds are to not start vaccinations until 10 weeks of age and space 2-3 weeks apart. Three rounds of puppy shots is considered sufficient with the DHPP booster a year later. Unless your state mandates rabies at an earlier age, waiting until 6 months is good.

Many, many, many vets who are skilled with treating toy breeds do not give the rabies vaccine as mandated. Instead, they give anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of the standard amount. I would definitely discuss this with your vet as it only makes sense that a toy breed (spefically a pup well under 10 lbs) does not need the same amount of vaccination as a large dog.

There are many here who use titers, but even the titer information will tell you that a low titer does not indicate low immunity, nor will a booster guarantee the titer will increase.

I highly recommend looking into the recommendations of Dr. Jean Dodds. She is one of the leading vets researching vaccinations and is highly respected.

Personally, my girls will not be getting any further vaccinations other than rabies (and my vet gives only 1/4 of the vaccination) for the rest of their lives.

I have never signed a waiver other than for anesthesia prior to surgery.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:30 PM   #7
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I only have a couple minutes, but will add more later.

Signing a consent is not the normal way. Your friend's old vet does it the "normal" way... As sad as that is...

The same dose is given to a 5 pound dog and a 100 pound dog because a response is needed from the immune system. This does not vary by size of dog. The rabies is supposedly extremely potent, so giving half may theoretically be fine. I have never asked to split it or throw part away and I do not agree with the practice right now.

We did titers for a couple years. You can read our story on YT. For us they were a waste of money. Certainly okay in some circumstances, but they don't work for everyone...

What age did this pup get the "last" DHPP?

Most states require rabies by four months. All I will say is I'd be waiting for such a small dog.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:42 PM   #8
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I also do not agree with splitting a dose of rabies for a small dog, and I concur with Ellie May that the immune system needs a certain amount of the vaccine to generate the immune response. I am comfortable with my vet following AAHA guidelines in this area.

Teddy was kind of big by the time he was 4 mos, so we were not that worried about his rabies. If I were, I'd have waited. We also were doing puppy classes and it was required.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:14 PM   #9
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Thanks for the reply everyone very helpful and insightful!

I wonder why they call it the Durmane Max 5 then according to Fort Dodge though? I guess I just assumed according to the name it was a 5-in-1 even though it really is 4-1 .

I wasn't sure about the dog's age being relevant or irrelevant with the rabies shot because I've read a few different opinions that one should wait until 24 weeks if possible and if their state law allows. I think that's Dr. Jean Dodd's protocol too if I'm not mistaken. I'm not in Cali anymore (4 month state law for rabies) and can wait up until 6 months!

I'm interested in the titers. I'll have to ask Dwerten about them. I've read good things and bad things about them and that they can be very tricky.

I've read that for Parvo and Distemper really the only reason why one re-vaccinates is because one is habit, and to catch those few individuals who for some reason don't respond to the first vaccination. I read to that a single immunizing dose of a modified live virus vaccine - in other words, one vaccine that works - will form long term, probably lifetime, immunity to parvo and distemper.

I think it may be a good idea for my friend to have a titter done since she is concerend about the age and frequency that the puppy shots were given to her little guy.I don't think it could hurt. I know that some puppies will not form immunity due to improper timing of vaccines and typically earlier vaccinaiton is clearly a doomed strategy and with more frequent vaccinations it makes the problem worse! Just not sure if 7 weeks is considered too early or not and if 2.5 weeks between vacinnations is too early and if it can interfere with the immunity from the first vaccine as well as the second? That's when my friends little guy was first given his 1st 4 in 1 puppy shots and then thereafter spaced out 2.5 weeks apart or maybe 2 weeks apart (now looking at the dates).

This puppy shots from the breeder were given as follows - 1st 4-in-1 shot at 6.9 weeks old (48 days), 2nd at 8.9 weeks (62 days), and 3rd at 10.9 weeks (76 days). He then was also given a shot of Distemper by the Vet at 13 weeks of age. The puppy is now 19.1 weeks old (4.4 months).

Can titers be done at any time after a dog has been vacinated? I know you should wait up until 7-10 days after the vaccination but is there a time frame that is too late (I'm guessing not, but not sure)?

I know I'm definately going to wait and stay at the Vets after my little girl gets her Rabies shot too as I'm sure my friend will also. The information posted too about spliting the doses for the Rabies vaccination is food for thought. Thanks 107barney too for the link from AAHA. I'll take a look at it and read through what they recommend as well.
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