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02-18-2010, 05:23 AM | #1 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA (near Washington, DC)
Posts: 312
| Raw diet ok with pancreatitus? I have a rescue yorkie, Tina, who is a retired puppy mill breeder. She was diagnosed with chronic pancreatitus when we first got her about 5 years ago. The vet prescribed 50mg metronidazole daily and a low fat diet. Pill format was out of the question, Tina is very hand shy after her years in the mill, and clamps her jaw and starts thrashing when I try to force anything into her mouth. So we get the meds in a capsule and sprinkle it on her food. The vet suggested a prescription dry food that Tina absolutely refused to touch. She's a very fussy eater, which makes it that much harder to get her meds down her. So we researched home cooked diets, and we've had her on a homecooked chicken and rice diet, with calcium and vitamin supplements since then, and she has been fairly stable. However, she still has occasional (once every 12 to 18 months) bouts of vomiting quickly followed by days at the vet on IV fluids to get her hydrated again. She had her last flare up about 7 months ago. The vet again suggested prescription dry food and gave us 3 different brands, each in a dry and canned formula. After extensive taste testing, Tina actually liked Purina EN Gastroenteritus formula dry food. So I've been wetting it with warm water, sprinkle her meds on it and giving her that twice daily. I know that these prescription foods can be very low quality but I hate to see Tina suffer with painful bouts of pancreatitus, so just "held my nose" and gave it to her. A couple of days ago, I gave Tina a bath and blow dry on low heat. I was combing her and noticed that her skin has gotten very flakey. It was like that when we first got her, and the vet said it was due to poor nutrition. So I'm back to square one. Give her crappy food and no pancreatitus, or high quality food and endure occasional flare ups? But then I had another idea. We've switched our other dog to raw diet (Primal) about a year ago, and he's thriving on it. I haven't been able to find anything about feeding raw diet with pancreatitus. Would it be too hard for her to digest? Is it too high in fat? Have any of you tried it? Is there another option for diet for chronic pancreatitus? |
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02-18-2010, 09:26 AM | #2 |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
| That is a tough one - i have a pancreatitis dog on purina ha and has been working for 4 years - he ate raw for 6 mos a year before being diagnosed with severe pancreatitis and almost dying. This is one expensive disease to treat if chronic. Mine has ibd of small intestines and if yours does too i would not feed raw and here is the reason as the ibd is inflamed intestines thus if food gets stuck in inflamed intestine you may have bacteria issues and things like hge so ibd dogs should not be fed raw for this reason in my opinion but others may feel differently - i personally am not willing to risk another episode as it cost me 10k over a year to get him back on track but you have a unique situation which is a picky eater luckily mine will eat it and the diet he is on is purina ha it is 8% fat. Also i would not supplement with any fatty acids with a pancreatitis dog like salmon oil, fish oil or even coconut oil makes me nervous even though some feel it is ok - while rare it can trigger it and with a chronic not acute case i would stay away from those many on here like Holistic Veterinarian Pet Nutritionist Holistic Pet Care my only issue is dogs with pancreas and ibd issues i do not like any inflammatory foods like white potato in diet and sometimes she recommends that which concerns me - i think sweet potato or rice are better for them does dog vomit or have diarrhea as mine only vomitted never diarrhea so it is small intestine issue and if diarrhea then large intestinal issue oh and my guy takes no pills and the fact that you are giving antibiotics which kills all the bacteria good and bad then putting raw in digestive tract also concerns me so possibly you can do probiotics instead of metronidazole just a thought Last edited by dwerten; 02-18-2010 at 09:28 AM. |
02-18-2010, 09:36 AM | #3 |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
| stick to the purine en as my pancreatitis dog is doing well on purina ha and he has dry skin but i will take that over pancreatitis any day you have trade offs with sick dogs and this is one disease i would not take a chance with as it can lead to diabetes or epi and those are huge issues so if a dog gets pancreatitis over and over it is not good and sounds like yours has I would not mess with the diet for dry skin and i would not supplement with fatty acids either due to pancreas issue. Stick to what works or you may end up with more vet bills and health issues I would not risk the raw food but you can join some Yahoo! Groups - Join or create groups, clubs, forums & communities on nutrition as there are a few on there i am on to learn more but i think it is risky and seeing how sick my dog was i would never risk it for a better quality food as it was touch and go for a year and this was our last resort before scoping intestines to confirm ibd was cause of pancreas issues and i did not want him on long term meds so we are good with just the diet now. Chicken is not a good thing long term in ibd dogs as ibd is tied to allergies and many allergy dogs and ibd dogs cannot tolerate chicken long term so this could have been the issue with continued flair ups so i suspect your dog has ibd as well as pancreatitis and it sounds like small intestines since vomitting. |
02-18-2010, 10:28 AM | #4 |
And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 17,928
| Raw is almost entirely out ot the question with pancreatitis "unless" you do your own from some very low fat meat... All of the premade raw I've seen is way too high in fat. The Honest Kitchen might have something. I'm not recommmending it, but it may be an option. Was the homecooked diet formulated by a veterinary nutriitonist? If you aren't absolutely sure that these raw and homecooked diets are pancreas friendly, it is important to stick with the rx diet. It isn't wrong to feed homecooked and it may not be damaging to feed raw (haven't really looked into it) in this case, but a flare up could sadly end up being fatal...
__________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶 |
02-18-2010, 10:53 AM | #5 |
YT Addict Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 384
| A friend of mine has a company that produces raw dog food. She is extremely knowledgeable, she learned from Dr. Billinghurst from Australia. She has a wonderful website that may answer your questions, or I am sure if you sent her an email she would be glad to help you. Her website is Carnivora Audrey |
02-18-2010, 03:41 PM | #6 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA (near Washington, DC)
Posts: 312
| Many thanks to you all for your thoughtful replies. The home cooked diet was developed with help from a woman who runs a local store that specializes in holistic and natural pet care products. She gave us the basic formula (chicken, rice, beef kidney and/or hearts, smaller amounts of sweet potato, kale, peas) plus calcium supplement and digestive enzyme supplements. Yes, dwerten, dry skin is MUCH better than another flare up. When you put it that way, there really isn't any choice, so I'll stick with the Purina EN. And thanks for the info about chicken being bad for IBD. When we were in the early stages of diagnosis with Tina, her specialist mentioned that she might have that. But no one ever told me to avoid chicken. The Purina EN dry food contains chicken meal. The canned, however, has beef. I think I tried out the canned version, and Tina didn't like it, but maybe I'll try that one again. I did see a product on the Purina website though, that might help. It's called Fortiflora Canine Supplement, which contains a probiotic and is recommended for dogs that are on "antibiotic therapies." Tina has a vet appt this Saturday, I'll ask about it to see what she thinks. Have any of you had any experience with it? EllieMay, thanks for point about fat content in the premade raw diet. It sounds too risky. But that brings up another question I've had. I have a hard time evaluating the fat content on labels. Many of them say "Minimum 8%." So what is the maximum? Does a food labeled "Minimum 8%" always have less fat than one that has "Minimum 9%?" And what percentage of fat is considered "low fat" when it comes to dog food? WinstonsMom - The Carnivora web site is a real gold mine, especially the "Learning Centre." The section on caprophagia was great - I loved how she ended it "To a dog, poop, apparently, is just another snack on the big green lawn of life." Again, thanks so much for your help! |
02-18-2010, 05:18 PM | #7 | |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
| Quote:
i would stick to en if it is working as if it is working stick to it and do not waiver until it does not work anymore as beef is higher than fat than chicken but cooked chicken may have been harder to process than this dog food and the liver is high in vitamin A and i think higher in fat not sure though but that may have been an issue | |
02-18-2010, 05:39 PM | #8 |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
| i have used dds plus probiotics for my dog for 2 plus years and that stuff works really well if you want to do a probiotic but i say the less supplementation the better if you can do it with just food then do that and let the body act naturally if your dog is having diarhea then yes by all means do the probiotics as i really like the ones i use as they are non-dairy hypoallergenic and work - when i stopped dd for a while due to metacam incident she was a mess - put her back on them 1/4 and no more diarrhea since so they really work Dds-Plus Capsules by U.A.S.Laboratories - UA-1010 - at The Vitamin Shoppe i think human grade sometimes is better than the vet stuff |
02-18-2010, 09:12 PM | #9 | |
And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 17,928
| Quote:
However, if you don't (which is totally understandable), homecooked could work. It sounds like the diet that was formulated was not a good one in this case. When homecooking, beef seems to be a source that triggers pancreatitis (no research to give you on that, just what I've heard and experienced). And because this person is not a veterinary nutritionist, they may not have been qualified to give you that recipe (for a sick dog). Do you know the fat content on a dry matter basis? Yes, you are right, the minimum fat % is just the minimum. It could contain quuite a bit more. You'd have to talk to a company rep to see if they could give you actual content. Also, when feeding wet food (canned, raw, homecooked), it has to be converted to a dry matter basis (mathematically remove the moisture content) to find actual protein, fat, and fiber content.
__________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶 | |
02-19-2010, 05:25 AM | #10 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA (near Washington, DC)
Posts: 312
| OK, so I'll go with the consensus and stick with the EN. And since it sounds like the indication to add a probiotic is diarrhea, I don't think Tina needs that now, either. She rarely has diarrhea - it usually only accompanies a pancreatitis attack, and those alwasy start with vomiting. But she definitely needs the metronidazole on a daily basis, the time the vet suggested discontinuing it, she had an attack about 2 weeks later. The labeling on dog food is so counter-intuitive. In human labeling, they post the actual content. Can you imagine if they were labeling the "minimum" on fat content? We'd see premium Ice Cream labeled "min 1%" fat! I mentioned before that Tina is a fussy eater. I feed her twice daily, on a regular schedule, same amounts at each feeding. Since using the Rx dry food, I add warm water to it and let it stand until it gets soft, then mash it up for her. (she also has protein losing enteropathy and rarely drinks water from the bowl, so I try to keep her well hydrated to help her kidney functions) Sometimes she dives right in and gobbles it up. Other times, she sniffs and walks away. I asked the vet, and she suggested adding a teaspoon of canned cat food. She said to look for the low fat ones, esp ones for seniors or overweight cats. That usually works. I rotate among several brands. (what she likes one day, she will sniff and walk away from the next). Usually INOVA, evo, Holistic select, Halo, Avoderm, Instinct. I'm reluctant to use the tough love approach and just let her go without a meal. So I may be reinforcing some "diva" behaviours, but she has trained me to cater to her every whim! I let her get by with it because I don't know any other way to make sure she gets her meds. So do you have any suggestions on what to use to entice her? Is there anything better than cat food? Last edited by addevo; 02-19-2010 at 05:27 AM. |
02-19-2010, 08:31 AM | #11 | |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
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02-19-2010, 08:35 AM | #12 | |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
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so she has PLE also sounds like it might be EPI as dogs with re-occuring pancreatitis get EPI not usually PLE - have you had cpli and tli on her as cpli is for pancreatitis and tli is for epi diagnosis Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency in Dogs (EPI) this may be why he has her on metronidazole but usually they need enzymes with epi here is info on ple Protein Losing Enteropathy in Dogs (PLE) This is a complicated case for sure are you working with an internal medicine specialist ? | |
02-19-2010, 11:19 AM | #13 | |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA (near Washington, DC)
Posts: 312
| Quote:
So our vet does bloodwork, etc on a regular basis and sends it to South Paws for their review. That's why I'm going on Saturday, it's time for her quarterly bloodwork. I don't recall exactly what Dr Katz does, and don't have any of her records here at work, but I recall she's always looking at Tina's albumin levels. That one seems to be the one she's most concerned about. Yes, it's a complicated case. In addition to the metronidazole, She takes 1/4 of a tablet that I can't remember the name of at the moment, I actually get that rx filled at CVS. Thank you so much for all the links, I'm going to put in some study time tonight so that I can ask better questions of the vet tomorrow. Thanks for the recommendation idea about the cod - I'll pick some up tonight on my way home. Hopefully that will satisfy the little princess. | |
02-19-2010, 12:53 PM | #14 | |
BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA
Posts: 11,073
| Quote:
sounds like you have done all the right things here is the albumin info as it measures protein Albumin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | |
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