More questions re: vaccine problems

[JCBL]

Since the other thread was getting so long I thought I'd start a new one. We are leaning towards accepting the other puppy from the breeder. This is the 2nd litter from these parents. No other pups have had problems. Reading through various threads here has made me almost scared to have another yorkie. I do not want to go through this again - it was devastating for me, my husband and just crushed my children.
Are the neurological problems I keep reading about very common? If we take the other puppy I plan on getting the bile acid test immediately.
I called the vet today and asked if we could come in to discuss what had happened - that we just needed to get an understanding since it all happened so fast. They said sure - for a consultation fee of $45! That may be standard practice, but it just floored me. We already paid them $100 for her first visit and the shot, $435 for her hospital care and the euthanasia. Not to mention that we have taken our other dog there for years and spend $1200 for a surgery for him last year outside of his normal care. I don't know if we'll go or not now. (Sorry for the venting).
Anyway I just need some reassurance or knowledge I guess that taking the other puppy is a good idea. He is almost 2 pounds heavier than Sophie, is eathing and behaving normally, and is very playful. However, Sophie was the same until she had the shot. He has had no shots ( I think), but has seen the vet and been dewormed. Any help or ideas out there.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by JCBL

Since the other thread was getting so long I thought I'd start a new one. We are leaning towards accepting the other puppy from the breeder. This is the 2nd litter from these parents. No other pups have had problems. Reading through various threads here has made me almost scared to have another yorkie. I do not want to go through this again - it was devastating for me, my husband and just crushed my children.
Are the neurological problems I keep reading about very common? If we take the other puppy I plan on getting the bile acid test immediately.
I called the vet today and asked if we could come in to discuss what had happened - that we just needed to get an understanding since it all happened so fast. They said sure - for a consultation fee of $45! That may be standard practice, but it just floored me. We already paid them $100 for her first visit and the shot, $435 for her hospital care and the euthanasia. Not to mention that we have taken our other dog there for years and spend $1200 for a surgery for him last year outside of his normal care. I don't know if we'll go or not now. (Sorry for the venting).
Anyway I just need some reassurance or knowledge I guess that taking the other puppy is a good idea. He is almost 2 pounds heavier than Sophie, is eathing and behaving normally, and is very playful. However, Sophie was the same until she had the shot. He has had no shots ( I think), but has seen the vet and been dewormed. Any help or ideas out there.

JCBL, I strongly recommend finding another vet.

If you trust your breeder that no other pups from the 2 litters experienced problems, I say follow your heart. I understand your fears. Have testing done immediately, and follow the vaccination protocol listed in the YT library.

[mtjimenez]

Hi!

You mentioned about the other threat being too long?? What happened to your puppy? I am a new dog owner EVER! And I'm taking my 12 week old girl for vaccinations next weeK. She already had two of the parvo booster shots and something else (at the breeder), but the vet recommended bordatella and drontal plus???? I am so nervous about next week! I am even thinking about cancelling the appointment...

Thanks,

TJ

[JCBL]

The other thread I started was too long - see it further down in the forum. It is titled Vaccine Death? and tells the whole story. I am very confused still, but from what I have read here I would be very cautious about vaccines, especially combined ones. We really don't know what happened. All I do know was that I had a seemingly perfectly healthy 11 week old Yorkie girl last Wednesday. She had the DA1LPP/Corona first vaccine that day and began a rapid descent where we had to euthanize her on Sunday morning. It was and continues to be horrible. Just do research and be cautious.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by mtjimenez

Hi!

You mentioned about the other threat being too long?? What happened to your puppy? I am a new dog owner EVER! And I'm taking my 12 week old girl for vaccinations next weeK. She already had two of the parvo booster shots and something else (at the breeder), but the vet recommended bordatella and drontal plus???? I am so nervous about next week! I am even thinking about cancelling the appointment...

Thanks,

TJ

Read about vaccines in the YorkieTalk library: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

My Yorkie was given unnecessary vaccines, he was given vaccines too early, and he was given too many in combination. Thank goodness he had no adverse reactions. I don't know about long-term effects.

We are coming up on our 1-year vaccinations and I will be following Dr. Jean Dodd's protocol (detailed in the linked thread).

[Wylie's Mom]

JCBL...if these are young puppies...liver shunt testing won't really be conclusive at this young age anyway, right? I mean, I don't want you have a false sense of security, that's all. This other puppy is from the same litter?

Hopefully, the liver shut folks will chime in, as this is not really my area.

As for vaccines, I don't get corona, bordatella, lepto, giardia, or lymes. I follow Dr. Dodd's, llike Maximo mentioned .

To mtjimenez - I would ask your vet "why the bordatella" - you can read more about that vaccine on Dodd's site .

[jp4m2]

Originally Posted by JCBL

The other thread I started was too long - see it further down in the forum. It is titled Vaccine Death? and tells the whole story. I am very confused still, but from what I have read here I would be very cautious about vaccines, especially combined ones. We really don't know what happened. All I do know was that I had a seemingly perfectly healthy 11 week old Yorkie girl last Wednesday. She had the DA1LPP/Corona first vaccine that day and began a rapid descent where we had to euthanize her on Sunday morning. It was and continues to be horrible. Just do research and be cautious.

I'm sorry for your sudden loss of your little girl....Your fears are completely understandable, the not knowing as to why this happened only makes it worse.....After I acquired a new addition I couldn't relax for many months after losing one of mine at the hands of a vet.......It's a terrible feeling, all you can do is try and not let it effect your feelings with the new one......

Try and arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can, with knowledge comes calm and confidence.....Confidence in your decisions.......

There are some very good people out there doing studies and research on vaccines and pet health. Some good ones to start with are Dr. Jean Dodds....Dr. Bob Rogers....Dr. Schultz.....Catherine O Driscoll.....Dr. Pitcairn....Dr. M. Goldstein......

There is no rush to have to get vaccines in your pup, you have plenty of time to do so. A pet just entering a new environment is stressed, stressed pets are at risk for adverse reaction. This is from Dr. Dodds....

"The recently weaned young puppy or kitten entering a new environment is at greater risk here, as its relatively immature immune system can be temporarily or more permanently harmed. Consequences in later life may be the increased susceptibility to chronic debilitating diseases." (Dr. Dodds)

The wait also works better as to giving the pets immune system time to mature (this is about 6 months) and moms maternal antibodies are no longer present to block the vaccines. When you wait the pet needs less vaccines to get the needed response for the vaccine to produce antibodies.

There is absolutely no science behind the "sets of three" for parvo and distemper that's typically done on pups. The only reason three are done is because the pup is taken in much to early and moms passive immunity is still at work protecting the pup. The vaccine is blocked my this immunity. Therefore the vets keeps giving the vaccine banking on that at least one of the three shots will produce antibodies. Not good for the pup....This is from two reliable sources......

The maternal antibodies in a puppy younger than 16 weeks may interfere with the immune response. At the ages of 14 to 16 weeks of age, PAMA (passively acquired maternal antibody) should be at a level that will not block active immunization in most puppies (>95%) when a reliable product is used. It should be noted that giving vaccine more frequently than every 2 weeks will cause interference between the two vaccines and neither can be expected to be effective. This includes giving vaccines for different infections.
Vaccines should be spaced 2-4 weeks apart. Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. (American Animal Hospital Association)

"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (ie: canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titers are not “boosted” nor are more memory cells induced. "J Dodds, DVM

Just remember it's your pet, not the vets, all the decisions are yours to make. The only vaccine that is required by law is the rabies, all the rest are your call.

Try and enjoy your pup and get reading, you'll feel better for it.......

[dwerten]

Disappointed in the vet but not surprised -I was charged a phone consult bill of $42 for faxing in blood work from a specialist so yes it can get ridiculous at times and sometimes makes you wonder if they care about our dogs and our business and is very hurtful. I was in tears over the above after spending 25k plus in vet bills I had finally had enough and broke down and cried. Having a sick dog can be very costly depending on the area you live in and why it is good you are here to learn more as i think being educated will help alot.

I would look around for another vet as one this dog may not have died had vaccines been done seperately and then all the money you spent the vet cannot discuss what happened - very sad

On the liver shunt i think the puppy has to be 16 weeks before doing bile acids to be accurate so by then you will be very attached.

[Ellie May]

Bile acids testing is somewhat worthless before 20 weeks when the organs are totally developed.

This could have been a reaction made worse but a liver problem, but it also could have been one of those things that just happens sometimes iwth the lepto vaccine. I don't think there is any way to say at this point. Your pup may (or may not) have been perfectly healthy without this shot.

My girl reacted to it and required emergency treatment, but we found out later that she has a liver problem.

I would find a new vet. I'm all for vets making lots of money because they do work hard, but charging for this visit after everything you have been through there just set right with me at all.

[blueskies]

I posted this on the other thread but I will quote it here too:

Originally Posted by blueskies

I have a breeder friend who let a 12 week old puppy go to their new home last year. She was doing great and the new owner took her to Banfield for her check up. They gave her a parvo/distemper shot as well as a Corona shot. They also did bloodwork and it was normal. The next day the puppy started going downhill. She was hospitalized over the course of 4 days and eventually got so bad that she had to be put down. Her body was sent to a veterinary school state testing lab that has an excellent reputation. A necropsy was done and there were NO abnormalities, no shunting, nothing. The report concluded that the puppy had "hypoglycemia brought on by vaccines". My breeder friend did not have to since the cause was not genetic, but she replaced the puppy. She held onto the next one until she was done with all her vaccines and had had a full blood workup at the breeders vet when she was 4 months old, and the owner went to a different vet. These vaccines DO cause issues in small breed puppies, especially Lepto and Corona. They are both so dangerous and if they are REALLY needed in an area with high incidence of either disease, then they should be given separately from the regular 5 way shot. Vets are too quick to give a 1-2 lb puppy a load of these shots, and they give the same dose to a 100 lb dog. It just doesn't make sense.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by jp4m2

I'm sorry for your sudden loss of your little girl....Your fears are completely understandable, the not knowing as to why this happened only makes it worse.....After I acquired a new addition I couldn't relax for many months after losing one of mine at the hands of a vet.......It's a terrible feeling, all you can do is try and not let it effect your feelings with the new one......

Try and arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can, with knowledge comes calm and confidence.....Confidence in your decisions.......

There are some very good people out there doing studies and research on vaccines and pet health. Some good ones to start with are Dr. Jean Dodds....Dr. Bob Rogers....Dr. Schultz.....Catherine O Driscoll.....Dr. Pitcairn....Dr. M. Goldstein......

There is no rush to have to get vaccines in your pup, you have plenty of time to do so. A pet just entering a new environment is stressed, stressed pets are at risk for adverse reaction. This is from Dr. Dodds....

"The recently weaned young puppy or kitten entering a new environment is at greater risk here, as its relatively immature immune system can be temporarily or more permanently harmed. Consequences in later life may be the increased susceptibility to chronic debilitating diseases." (Dr. Dodds)

The wait also works better as to giving the pets immune system time to mature (this is about 6 months) and moms maternal antibodies are no longer present to block the vaccines. When you wait the pet needs less vaccines to get the needed response for the vaccine to produce antibodies.

There is absolutely no science behind the "sets of three" for parvo and distemper that's typically done on pups. The only reason three are done is because the pup is taken in much to early and moms passive immunity is still at work protecting the pup. The vaccine is blocked my this immunity. Therefore the vets keeps giving the vaccine banking on that at least one of the three shots will produce antibodies. Not good for the pup....This is from two reliable sources......

The maternal antibodies in a puppy younger than 16 weeks may interfere with the immune response. At the ages of 14 to 16 weeks of age, PAMA (passively acquired maternal antibody) should be at a level that will not block active immunization in most puppies (>95%) when a reliable product is used. It should be noted that giving vaccine more frequently than every 2 weeks will cause interference between the two vaccines and neither can be expected to be effective. This includes giving vaccines for different infections.
Vaccines should be spaced 2-4 weeks apart. Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. (American Animal Hospital Association)

"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (ie: canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titers are not “boosted” nor are more memory cells induced. "J Dodds, DVM

Just remember it's your pet, not the vets, all the decisions are yours to make. The only vaccine that is required by law is the rabies, all the rest are your call.

Try and enjoy your pup and get reading, you'll feel better for it.......

There is so much wonderful information on the internet but I know it can become confusing. Your post is very helpful in helping to sort this out....

[livingdustmops]

I am going to steal this thread for a moment:

A reputable breeder will help educate the puppy buyer on the proper timing of shots and which shots. Even if the breeder is frightened to advise them at least give them a copy of the AAHA Guidelines

http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf

It really does amaze me why breeders don't have to do this....it should be required.

[blueskies]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I am going to steal this thread for a moment:

A reputable breeder will help educate the puppy buyer on the proper timing of shots and which shots. Even if the breeder is frightened to advise them at least give them a copy of the AAHA Guidelines

http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf

It really does amaze me why breeders don't have to do this....it should be required.

As I posted on the other thread, the breeder DID do this. She had a packet of informational papers on the subject, and the breeder went over each one and the puppy's health record with the buyer and explained which shots were needed. The buyer still took the puppy to the vet and did not ask about the vaccines the puppy was being given, and the vet gave her Corona. Even on the puppy's health record on the vaccine schedule was written in capital letters: PLEASE DO NOT GIVE LEPTO OR CORONA. The vet was given the record by the buyer and chose to ignore it.


ETA: After everything happened, the buyer did apologize to my friend (the breeder) and said that she knew it was her fault that she did not ask about the vaccines that were being given and should have listened to the breeder and trusted what she said. She did not expect to get another puppy but my friend was nice enough to give her one, but made sure that this time the buyer understood how important it is to speak up at the vet.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by blueskies

As I posted on the other thread, the breeder DID do this. She had a packet of informational papers on the subject, and the breeder went over each one and the puppy's health record with the buyer and explained which shots were needed. The buyer still took the puppy to the vet and did not ask about the vaccines the puppy was being given, and the vet gave her Corona. Even on the puppy's health record on the vaccine schedule was written in capital letters: PLEASE DO NOT GIVE LEPTO OR CORONA. The vet was given the record by the buyer and chose to ignore it.

I have not seen the other post yet but as sad as the situation is I am glad your breeder friend did this. Does she know why the person who bought her puppy ignored this?

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

There is so much wonderful information on the internet but I know it can become confusing. Your post is very helpful in helping to sort this out....

great post and we see dr dodds personally for all our blood work and titers as she is close to me and she is AWESOME very kind, loving, caring person who always helps me with my dogs and i trust her.