MVD and Vegetarian diet?

[AmyChristine]

Reading all of the recent threads about liver disease has me thinking again about diet. I am currently home cooking for Copper and he has been responding well. However we are planning a few family trips and camping. Some including the dogs, some with them staying at a relatives. It is hard to camp for a week and homecook and likewise when they are staying with someone else. Copper has MVD, but with neuro symptoms, (he hasn't displayed symptoms since diet change) last BA test was pre 5 post 135. I am considering trying Natural Balance Veg formula. I like the ingrediants better than Hills LD and it is preserved with mixed tocopherals instead of ethoxyquin and i feel like it would be a better alt for long term use. My concerns are that I cannot find a sodium content and copper content not sure if levels would be ok for liver comp dog. I would still be adding in the supplements. Has anyone tried a veg formula? what do you think?

More than likely I will keep home cooking, but if I could find something that was easier and just as safe that would be so much better for both of us.


INGREDIENT LISTING
Water for processing, Ground Brown Rice, Cracked Barley, Oatmeal, Canola Oil, Carrots, Potato Protein, Tomato Pomace, Fresh Potatoes, Dehydrated Potatoes, Natural Flavor, Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Natural Hickory Smoke Flavor, Cassia Gum, Carrageenan Gum, Sodium Chloride, Taurine, Potassium Chloride, Spinach, Parsley, Cranberries, Zinc Sulfate, Yucca Schidigiera Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Sodium Selenite, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein 5.0% minimum
Crude Fat 3.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 1.5% maximum
Moisture 78.0% maximum

[veganlass]

My 3 dogs (one a yorkie) has a vegetarian dried dog food and are healthy and well.

Dogs Ive had in the past over the years had standard dog food mostly tins and they have all died of liver failure. I am sure the food was too rich in protein for their liver to digest.

Now a vegan myself I have had my dogs on veggie food for a few years and they are healthy, good shiney coats and they enjoy their food.

[Dame]

I would really suggest you try contacting Natural Balance. They should be able to tell you the levels of sodium and copper.

[AmyChristine]

Originally Posted by Dame

I would really suggest you try contacting Natural Balance. They should be able to tell you the levels of sodium and copper.

Thankyou, I just wrote them an email tonight. Hopefully I will get a response soon.

[Ellie May]

It is okay as long as the dog is asymptomatic. It, in my opinion, is not as good as a homecooked diet. L/D canned isn't that bad and I'd use it if I had to. I'd also use Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 if I couldn't homecook. Homecooking is reallllllllllllllllly quite annoying to take on vacation...I agree. The canned L/D does not contain ethoxyquin.

[AmyChristine]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

It is okay as long as the dog is asymptomatic. It, in my opinion, is not as good as a homecooked diet. L/D canned isn't that bad and I'd use it if I had to. I'd also use Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 if I couldn't homecook. Homecooking is reallllllllllllllllly quite annoying to take on vacation...I agree. The canned L/D does not contain ethoxyquin.

Thankyou so much, yes it is really hard to home cook on the go, I will probably just pack my little puree baggies with me and keep them on ice or in the freezer. It is good to know that the canned doesn't contain ethoxyquin, I was under the impression that they both do. Thankyou for clarifing that for me. I do have about half of a case of the L/D left so maybe I will use that for the family stay and try and keep up on homecook for the rest. I guess I was looking for an easy way but I would rather do the better way. He is not asymptomatic, and I will not risk him being sick again for the sake of easy. I really appricaite all the input.

I can just picture me steaming a sweet potato over a campfire with my little pot and steamer, for my little dog I will have to take a picture.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by AmyChristine

Thankyou so much, yes it is really hard to home cook on the go, I will probably just pack my little puree baggies with me and keep them on ice or in the freezer. It is good to know that the canned doesn't contain ethoxyquin, I was under the impression that they both do. Thankyou for clarifing that for me. I do have about half of a case of the L/D left so maybe I will use that for the family stay and try and keep up on homecook for the rest. I guess I was looking for an easy way but I would rather do the better way. He is not asymptomatic, and I will not risk him being sick again for the sake of easy. I really appricaite all the input.

I can just picture me steaming a sweet potato over a campfire with my little pot and steamer, for my little dog I will have to take a picture.

Oh yes, my family knows by now to just get over it and keep jokes to a minimum because whatever is best for Ellie is what I will do.

I think the L/D did contain ethoxyquin but they had since stopped using it. So if your cans are older, you may have a problem...

[AmyChristine]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Oh yes, my family knows by now to just get over it and keep jokes to a minimum because whatever is best for Ellie is what I will do.

I think the L/D did contain ethoxyquin but they had since stopped using it. So if your cans are older, you may have a problem...

It has taken my family a little while to figure that out, they still giggle when I do routine checks arround the campsite to make sure no food was dropped before I put my babies down.

Just checked the back lable on my cans... no ethoxyquin I am really glad that they stopped using it. Your input is always so helpful, thankyou.

[107barney]

I home cook for my 9 year old male and my 8 month old puppy. However, my MVD dog, a 9 year old female, eats canned L/D. I am curious about the home cooked diet that Cooper is eating and doing well on. We tried to home cook for Daisy and the diet given to us by her internist could not be tolerated. I have not been able to find another diet that would work. Would you mind sharing what diet Cooper follows?
Thanks!

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I home cook for my 9 year old male and my 8 month old puppy. However, my MVD dog, a 9 year old female, eats canned L/D. I am curious about the home cooked diet that Cooper is eating and doing well on. We tried to home cook for Daisy and the diet given to us by her internist could not be tolerated. I have not been able to find another diet that would work. Would you mind sharing what diet Cooper follows?
Thanks!

What were the ingredients in the diet that the internist gave you?
Ellie is liver compromised also and she does very well on homecooked.
She actually doesn't tolerate rx diets well.

[107barney]

Here is the diet that the specialist gave to Daisy and which she did not do well on. This recipe is for the whole batch not each meal. I would love to try something else and have thought of consulting with a holistic vet but am concerned that they may not have enough experience with MVD. Daisy also has IBD and allergies, making ingredients very tricky.

Canine Low Protein Diet for Liver Disease

Revised by Dr. Claudia Kirk, Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists,
April 18, 2005

¼ lb of ground beef (not lean chuck)
2 Cups cooked rice
1 hard cooked egg, finely chopped
3 slices of white bread, crumbled
1 tsp powdered bone meal for feeding (if you can’t find this, substitute calcium carbonate)
¼ tsp lite salt
1 Centrum vitamin-mineral supplement
1 tsp corn oil
100 IU vitamin E capsule
1 gram fish oil nutritional supplement

1 tsp Metamucil

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Here is the diet that the specialist gave to Daisy and which she did not do well on. This recipe is for the whole batch not each meal. I would love to try something else and have thought of consulting with a holistic vet but am concerned that they may not have enough experience with MVD. Daisy also has IBD and allergies, making ingredients very tricky.

Canine Low Protein Diet for Liver Disease

Revised by Dr. Claudia Kirk, Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists,
April 18, 2005

¼ lb of ground beef (not lean chuck)
2 Cups cooked rice
1 hard cooked egg, finely chopped
3 slices of white bread, crumbled
1 tsp powdered bone meal for feeding (if you can’t find this, substitute calcium carbonate)
¼ tsp lite salt
1 Centrum vitamin-mineral supplement
1 tsp corn oil
100 IU vitamin E capsule
1 gram fish oil nutritional supplement

1 tsp Metamucil

There is your answer right there.
Liver compromised dogs shouldn't be eating red meat.
It causing ammonia (toxins) to build up causing neurologic symptoms.
The same goes for organ meat.
You may get away with chicken but whitefish, egg white, cottage cheese and tofu are better choices.

Do you have the guaranteed analysis for this diet?

What foods set off her IBD, allergies and food sensitivities?

Ellie has all of those issues too (IBD/food sensitivities/allergies).
Thankfully her liver isn't nearly as bad as it could be.

[107barney]

Hi Crystal
Yes, I found it odd that there was ground beef in there. I've done substiutions with chicken and turkey and she is unable to handle any kind of meat. I've given her tofu and cottage cheese, which she can tolerate, but it is not cost effective and is difficult to store.

A lot of "cookies" set her off - so anything with wheat. I feed her "wellbars" cookies and those are the only ones she can handle. Those are the Yogurt, Apples & Bananas variety and the ingredients are:
Ingredients
Ground Barley, Cane Molasses, Ground Brown Rice, Canola Oil, Yogurt (Milk Ingredients, Lactic Acid, Citric Acid, Yogurt Cultures), Apples, Bananas, Oatmeal, Flaxseed, Amaranth, Ascorbic Acid (a source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Beta-Carotene.

She can eat sweet potatoes, some veggies like green beans, baby carrots give her horrendous diarrhea, even if I steam them. She likes fruits - apples, blueberries, oranges, bananas. She can eat oats, potatoes, sweet potatoes, brown rice without incident so carbohydrate sources are not the problem. She can eat cottage cheese, yogurt, and tofu but does not care for tofu unless I add some type of flavoring to it like chicken broth.

The diet given to me by my vet seems to have this added to it concerning the analysis:

Yield: 598 grams (1.25 pounds) and 936 kcal/batch
Analysis (% Dry Matter):
Protein 19%
Fat 19%
Carbohydrate 54%
Sodium 0.5%
Calories 750 kcal/lb.
Feed sufficient amount to maintain normal body weight (approximately ¼ lb food per each 5 lb
body weight).

As for her allergies, she has mostly environmental allergies to Pine (we have pine trees in a neighbor's yars), grasses, flowers, etc. Right now with all the mold in the Northeast, she has scratched a bald spot on her nose and is biting her pads all day long. She takes Atopica and I bathe her in Maleseb to keep the yeast down. I've got to take her into the dermatologist for a check though as it is not improving!

[AmyChristine]

As far as diet. I have found that it is the type of protien that has the biggest effect on Copper, I do not use animal meats at all, I tried chicken 1 time when I first started and he hid under the bed most of the day, and was very shakey

I will buy white fish when it is on sale and freeze it. but I mostly use cottage cheese and egg white for Copper. I puree lightly steamed veggies such as; green beans, zuccini, yellow sqash etc... I also use fresh carrots and parsley in my puree. I will freeze the puree in 2 day portions so that I take one out every other day.

For Carbohydrates I use steamed sweet potato, or egg noodles. I try to keep it grain free because I feel like for him that is better. But I have read where people use oatmeal and rice and had no problems.

Some times I will add a pinch of parmesean cheese or dried cranberries, grated apple, rosemary, and other varrients to keep him interested.

I had alot of help here on YT getting started with homecooking but also had help refining it for Copper with a local holistic vet. It took trial and error to figure out what he would eat and exactly how much protien he could handle.

Copper also gets a range of vitamins and supplements that go into his food. I would recomend giving milk thistle in some form (it seems to help and make a difference) we use Hepato Support.

This is just what works for us, he has been responding very well. Each dog is going to be different but maybe it can help give you ideas, If you have a good holistic vet in your area I would contact them. Some will even give a phone consult for a reasonable fee.

[AmyChristine]

Oh and i wanted to add I dont use treats that you can buy at the store, most dont set well with Copper. instead he gets pieces of fruit or baby carrots. He loves half frozen water mellon!