Repeat BAT question

[cocoangel]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

I'm also going out today to try to find a new toothpaste that doesn't contain meat ingredients. (I didn't even think of that until I had read a post!!)

I never even thought about the protein in the toothpaste! Thanks for mentioning that in your post!

[Hannah3183]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

High enzymes?
Her enzymes look normal.
You mean the high bile acids?

In most cases, there has to be a large amount of liver damage/liver cell death for the enzymes to go up. Yorkeis should be bile acids tested even with perfect enzyme levels.

Ahh sorry. I guess I got all confused. Yes, the biles are mildly increased. So does that indicate early stages of liver disease then? Am I doing the right thing by taking the liver supplement and staying low protein?

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

Ahh sorry. I guess I got all confused. Yes, the biles are mildly increased. So does that indicate early stages of liver disease then? Am I doing the right thing by taking the liver supplement and staying low protein?

Actually, dogs with liver disease don't need low protein, they need high quality protein. Unlike dogs with kidney disease who need a low protein diet, not enough protein in a liver compromised dog can actually damage the liver further.

Animal proteins are the no-no as they produce ammonia which a diseased liver cannot process, so the ammonia gets into their bodies. Protein from dairy is best, eggs, yogurt and cottage cheese. Chicken and fish don't produce that much ammonia so they are good, too.

Yes, do give her the supplements. My Lady has liver disease from nine years of high doses of phenobarbital for seizures. I have given her milk thistle from day one and it has been only in the last year that her liver values have been elevated. They are still under 300 which is amazing since pheno is known to destroy the liver.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

Ahh sorry. I guess I got all confused. Yes, the biles are mildly increased. So does that indicate early stages of liver disease then? Am I doing the right thing by taking the liver supplement and staying low protein?

High bile acids indicate a liver functioning problem.
Without further diagnostics, it is impossible to say what that problem is.
If a Protein C test comes back normal and a Yorkie has high bile acids, it is normally assumed that it is MVD.

With high bile acids I would continue with supplements.
The amount of protein is very specific to the dog.
Ellie gets 24% because we aren't convinced that she is having neurological symptoms but this is quite high. You can increase the protein if she isn't having symptoms (not saying you should go to 30 or 40% or anything like that). You can slowly increase to see what happens but the minute there are symptoms, it has to be taken back down again. For a dog with only mildly elevated bile acids who doesn't really have symptoms, L/D seems a bit low in my opinion. Not sure the protein % of the I/D though.

[Hannah3183]

With high bile acids I would continue with supplements.
The amount of protein is very specific to the dog.
Ellie gets 24% because we aren't convinced that she is having neurological symptoms but this is quite high. You can increase the protein if she isn't having symptoms (not saying you should go to 30 or 40% or anything like that). You can slowly increase to see what happens but the minute there are symptoms, it has to be taken back down again. For a dog with only mildly elevated bile acids who doesn't really have symptoms, L/D seems a bit low in my opinion. Not sure the protein % of the I/D though.

Here's the Hills i/d information. I'm thinking now that it's probably too high!
Mayme gets 3/4 a cup a day.

Average Nutrient Contents

Nutrient
Dry Matter1
%
Protein 26.2
Fat 14.1
Carbohydrate (NFE) 50.3
Crude Fiber 2.7
Total Dietary Fiber 8.7
Soluble Fiber 1.2
Insoluble Fiber 7.5

Calcium 1.04
Phosphorus 0.79
Sodium 0.45
Potassium 0.92
Magnesium 0.095



¹The nutrient in the product after moisture is removed. It is used to make direct comparisons of nutrient profiles of products with differing moisture contents

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Rosemary Extract

______________________
So, I guess I should now look for a vegetarian kibble and add some egg whites and cottage cheese to increase the protein to around 22%ish? The veggie kibble that looked good to me and not full of grain was Petguard Organic Vegetarian.

Organic Quinoa, Organic Oat Meal, Organic Ground Barley, Organic Brown Rice, Organic Dried Eggs,Organic Sunflower Oil, Organic Apples, Organic Peas, Organic Carrots, Organic Potatoes, Organic Flaxseed, Organic Amaranth, Organic Kelp, Organic Cranberries, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Ascorbate (Source Of Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement, D-Alpha Tocopherol, Calciferol (Source Of Vitamin D), Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Inositol, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source Of Vitamin B6), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Folic Acid, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
CRUDE PROTEIN….……. 16.0% Min
CRUDE FAT………………. 9.0% Min
CRUDE FIBER……………. 7.0% Max
MOISTURE…………….…. 12.0% Max
*VITAMIN C…...........…… 500 Mg/Kg Min
VITAMIN E …..........….. 250 IU/Kg Min
*FATTY ACIDS (OMEGA 3) 0.8%Min
FATTY ACIDS (OMEGA 6) 4.2% Min


The protein level scares me on this one though...but maybe adding an egg white or two a day will help bump that up? How many would you recommend and or how much cottage cheese?

I also liked the Natural Balance Organic Formula

INGREDIENT LISTING
Ingredients: Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberries, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.

Crude Protein 22.0% minimum
Crude Fat 13.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 4.5% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.4% minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.6% minimum

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

Here's the Hills i/d information. I'm thinking now that it's probably too high!
Mayme gets 3/4 a cup a day.

Average Nutrient Contents

Nutrient
Dry Matter1
%
Protein 26.2
Fat 14.1
Carbohydrate (NFE) 50.3
Crude Fiber 2.7
Total Dietary Fiber 8.7
Soluble Fiber 1.2
Insoluble Fiber 7.5

Calcium 1.04
Phosphorus 0.79
Sodium 0.45
Potassium 0.92
Magnesium 0.095



¹The nutrient in the product after moisture is removed. It is used to make direct comparisons of nutrient profiles of products with differing moisture contents

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Rosemary Extract

______________________
So, I guess I should now look for a vegetarian kibble and add some egg whites and cottage cheese to increase the protein to around 22%ish? The veggie kibble that looked good to me and not full of grain was Petguard Organic Vegetarian.

Organic Quinoa, Organic Oat Meal, Organic Ground Barley, Organic Brown Rice, Organic Dried Eggs,Organic Sunflower Oil, Organic Apples, Organic Peas, Organic Carrots, Organic Potatoes, Organic Flaxseed, Organic Amaranth, Organic Kelp, Organic Cranberries, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Ascorbate (Source Of Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement, D-Alpha Tocopherol, Calciferol (Source Of Vitamin D), Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Inositol, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source Of Vitamin B6), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Folic Acid, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
CRUDE PROTEIN….……. 16.0% Min
CRUDE FAT………………. 9.0% Min
CRUDE FIBER……………. 7.0% Max
MOISTURE…………….…. 12.0% Max
*VITAMIN C…...........…… 500 Mg/Kg Min
VITAMIN E …..........….. 250 IU/Kg Min
*FATTY ACIDS (OMEGA 3) 0.8%Min
FATTY ACIDS (OMEGA 6) 4.2% Min


The protein level scares me on this one though...but maybe adding an egg white or two a day will help bump that up? How many would you recommend and or how much cottage cheese?

I also liked the Natural Balance Organic Formula

INGREDIENT LISTING
Ingredients: Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberries, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.

Crude Protein 22.0% minimum
Crude Fat 13.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 4.5% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.4% minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.6% minimum

The ingredients in Hill's foods are so terrible. The main ingredient in the L/D is corn which is a cheap filler and one of the top three allergy causing ingredients in dogs.

Want to know what's in chicken by-product meal? This is the AAFCO definition. I hope you have a strong stomach!

Chicken By-Product Meal - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.

The other food has much better ingredients, but you don't have to do vegetarian for a dog with asymptomatic MVD. Solid Gold makes a kibble that many people use for MVD dogs:

Holistique Blendz Adult Dog (fish)

Wellness also has a couple of Supermix formulas (one for seniors, one for weight control) that are lower in protein, but contain chicken.

Dry Dog Food Formulas - WELLNESS®

[Hannah3183]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

The ingredients in Hill's foods are so terrible. The main ingredient in the L/D is corn which is a cheap filler and one of the top three allergy causing ingredients in dogs.

Want to know what's in chicken by-product meal? This is the AAFCO definition. I hope you have a strong stomach!

Chicken By-Product Meal - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.

The other food has much better ingredients, but you don't have to do vegetarian for a dog with asymptomatic MVD. Solid Gold makes a kibble that many people use for MVD dogs:

Holistique Blendz Adult Dog (fish)

Wellness also has a couple of Supermix formulas (one for seniors, one for weight control) that are lower in protein, but contain chicken.

Dry Dog Food Formulas - WELLNESS®

I know the Hills is TERRIBLE! I've been wanting to take her off of it forever, but have had no idea what to switch to and didn't want to keep switching her food and making her stomach more upset.

Regarding the Solid Gold - I thought fish was high in purines and not good for dogs with liver problems? Or is this ok for mine since her biles are slightly elevated and she's asymptomatic?

I've always been a fan of Wellness. Mayme was on Wellness Puppy before she started throwing up and we discovered her biles were up. So even though is says its for Seniors...etc...it's ok to give a 1yr old pup? Mayme sure does love her chicken so this might be a great option for her.

Thank you (and Ellie May!) for your continued help! You don't know how much I appreciate this!

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

I know the Hills is TERRIBLE! I've been wanting to take her off of it forever, but have had no idea what to switch to and didn't want to keep switching her food and making her stomach more upset.

Regarding the Solid Gold - I thought fish was high in purines and not good for dogs with liver problems? Or is this ok for mine since her biles are slightly elevated and she's asymptomatic?

I've always been a fan of Wellness. Mayme was on Wellness Puppy before she started throwing up and we discovered her biles were up. So even though is says its for Seniors...etc...it's ok to give a 1yr old pup? Mayme sure does love her chicken so this might be a great option for her.

Thank you (and Ellie May!) for your continued help! You don't know how much I appreciate this!

Dr. Dodd's highly regarded liver cleansing diet has white fish as it's main ingredient.

Liver Cleansing Diet and Milk Thistle

This is a great article about food for liver compromised dogs.

Liver | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

[Ellie May]

Be careful if you want to feed Wellness with fish.
There is some concern over fish bones not being ground properly and remaining sharp.

Do you want canned or kibble?
How much protein is your vet thinking she needs?

[Hannah3183]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Be careful if you want to feed Wellness with fish.
There is some concern over fish bones not being ground properly and remaining sharp.

Do you want canned or kibble?
How much protein is your vet thinking she needs?

I prefer to keep her eating kibble..and maybe adding in some steamed veggies/cottage cheese...or whatever as extra.

My vet hasn't discussed any nutrition with me. I've been to two vets who both said they didn't know much about it. They said since her bloodwork was normal, and she didn't have symptoms that I should just keep her on the Denamarin and a highly digestable diet. This is why I've been seeking help here and on the yahoo group. I feel that you all are much more knowledgeable than the vets I have been to!

[Hannah3183]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

The other food has much better ingredients, but you don't have to do vegetarian for a dog with asymptomatic MVD. Solid Gold makes a kibble that many people use for MVD dogs:

Holistique Blendz Adult Dog (fish)

Wellness also has a couple of Supermix formulas (one for seniors, one for weight control) that are lower in protein, but contain chicken.

Dry Dog Food Formulas - WELLNESS®

I've been looking into switching to the Solid Gold Fish or the Wellness Fish and Sweet Potato kibble. However, my last main concern is the Manganese in these two. Since she is asymptomatic, should this not be of great concern right now since I read that manganese was bad for those with HE?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

I've been looking into switching to the Solid Gold Fish or the Wellness Fish and Sweet Potato kibble. However, my last main concern is the Manganese in these two. Since she is asymptomatic, should this not be of great concern right now since I read that manganese was bad for those with HE?

If the GI issues led you or the vet to believe she needed to be tested in the first place, she may not be considered asymptomatic... The diet she is on now may somehow be keeping symptoms under control unelss the issue was unrelated to the high bile acids. Ddi you see the video about Wellness Fish kibble?

[Hannah3183]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

If the GI issues led you or the vet to believe she needed to be tested in the first place, she may not be considered asymptomatic... The diet she is on now may somehow be keeping symptoms under control unelss the issue was unrelated to the high bile acids. Ddi you see the video about Wellness Fish kibble?

I read about the video on the Wellness Fish, but I thought it was more related to the canned and not the kibble.

I guess you are right about being asymptomatic. The vomiting is so sporatic that I never really considered it a "symptom" like I would seizures and the like. So now I'm back to looking at vegetarian kibble w/ high quality protein mixed in? Think that's the best route at this point?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Hannah3183

I read about the video on the Wellness Fish, but I thought it was more related to the canned and not the kibble.

I guess you are right about being asymptomatic. The vomiting is so sporatic that I never really considered it a "symptom" like I would seizures and the like. So now I'm back to looking at vegetarian kibble w/ high quality protein mixed in? Think that's the best route at this point?

The Wellness issue has to do with the kibble also.

It really depending why she is throwing up.
Ellie used to throw up on Science Diet. I now believe it was just not working for her rather than it being her liver. It is about impossible to know for sure in your case. "If" she is symptomatic, vegetarian protein is best. Egg may be tolerated well also. You would need to homecook if you wanted that though and I think it is in the L/D. Fish may also be acceptable for some dogs.

[Hannah3183]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

The Wellness issue has to do with the kibble also.

It really depending why she is throwing up.
Ellie used to throw up on Science Diet. I now believe it was just not working for her rather than it being her liver. It is about impossible to know for sure in your case. "If" she is symptomatic, vegetarian protein is best. Egg may be tolerated well also. You would need to homecook if you wanted that though and I think it is in the L/D. Fish may also be acceptable for some dogs.

Hmm. I guess I can try the Solid Gold fish for a while and see how that goes. I hate to take her off all forms of "meat" if she doesn't need to.If she throws up...I can always switch again to the veggie kibble.
Thank you for your help!