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Old 08-25-2008, 08:19 PM   #1
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Default low protein food

My vet originally put my dog on Hills i/d because she was throwing up. (This was before I went for a second opinion which discovered that she has some kind of liver problem. BAT at 48.)
When I started doing research, I found out that i/d isn't a good food, let alone good for those with liver problems. I'm soo frustrated at these vets! argh!
Does anyone know of a quality lower protein food I can switch her too? She threw up about a tablespoon tonight (first time in probably 2 wks) Do you think its ok to switch her food without telling the vet? I feel like ive been kinda coaching the vet along on how to treat her b/c ive been soo worried, and I don't want to tick them off to where they refuse to see her.
Im going to see how she does for the next few days before I rush her back in since they want to do an ultrasound. I want to talk to another vet first about what he thinks we should do from here.

I had read in a previous post about Royal Canin LS being ok for those with liver problems but that it tended to cause allergic reactions...so I kinda don't even want to try that one. Any other good ones out there? Also - is boiled chicken ok as a treat for little ones with liver issues?

Thanks for the help!
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:15 AM   #2
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I would hope the vet isn't getting upset with you giving your input.
I give my input all the time to Ellie's vet and instead of being frustrated about it, she thinks we are great clients probably because we put the time and effort into taking care of Ellie. If you aren't satisfied or you don't think this vet is a great fit, why not switch?

Have you looked into CANNED L/D?
It isn't a great food but it isn't horrible either.
Natural Balance Vegetarian might be acceptable.
I like homecooking best but you would probably need to talk to a nutritionist and it does take some time to do.

Chicken may be okay for some liver compromised dogs but if she is having neurological symptoms, I would not give any extra protein.
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:50 AM   #3
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The Honest Kitchen makes a formula called Preference that is completely vegeterian freeze-dried raw. You could add your own protein to as necessary to make sure it isn't too much.

For treats, I'd look at something more like frozen peas - something not a protein at all.

I would let your vet know what she is eating. Keep in mind that nutrition isn't something most vets are highly skilled in. It is a very small fraction of vet training. It is also typical that you are schooling your vet on how to treat your baby. Many of them have little or no training with regard to toy breeds. Even though they are still a "dog", toy breeds have very specific needs that are drastically different from other dogs - even the smaller ones.

If it were me and I had a pup with a questionable liver problem and a vet who didn't know much about toy breeds, I would definitely be looking for a new vet. Good luck.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:06 AM   #4
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I've been on dogfoodanalysis all morning looking for something. I really like the Wellness brand, but the lowest protein in that Super5 mix Chicken at (not less than) 22%, or Wellness Simple Solutions Rice & Duck (21%). I also liked Naturapet California Natural Lamb & Rice (21%)

Are all of these still too high for a liver compromised dog?

Thanks for all the info! I just tried to call my vet, but of course....not in today. ARGH!
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:25 AM   #5
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My advice is to get another BAT done. Honestly (1) BAT of 48 (which isn't extremely high) can't really lead conclusively to liver issues. So I would get another BAT to compare and also a CBC and Urinalysis.

In the meantime, I would stick with 1 food that's low in protein right now until you get some more definite answers, b/c all the switching of foods could be cause some issues.

Keep us posted.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannah3183 View Post
I've been on dogfoodanalysis all morning looking for something. I really like the Wellness brand, but the lowest protein in that Super5 mix Chicken at (not less than) 22%, or Wellness Simple Solutions Rice & Duck (21%). I also liked Naturapet California Natural Lamb & Rice (21%)

Are all of these still too high for a liver compromised dog?

Thanks for all the info! I just tried to call my vet, but of course....not in today. ARGH!
The amount of protein isn't the only thing that has to be considered.
The type of protein is just as important.

Red meat should be totally avoided in liver compromised dogs, so no beef or lamb. Chicken may be acceptable for dogs without many symptoms but fish, egg, tofu and cottage cheese are usually preferred. I don't think exotics (duck) are good either. When feeding things like red meat, ammonium builds up and isn't being filtered properly by the liver. This can affect the brain and cause hepatic encephalopathy (neurologic symptoms).

If a liver compromised dog does well on a diet of 22% protein, it is probably okay. If neurologic symptoms occur, the diet has to be changed. Because the post was only 48 in this case, you can probably get away with feeding a bit more protein than others with liver compromised dogs.
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:10 AM   #7
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My advice is to get another BAT done. Honestly (1) BAT of 48 (which isn't extremely high) can't really lead conclusively to liver issues. So I would get another BAT to compare and also a CBC and Urinalysis.

In the meantime, I would stick with 1 food that's low in protein right now until you get some more definite answers, b/c all the switching of foods could be cause some issues.

Keep us posted.
She's had two CBC's and a Urinalysis which came back ok. They found a little microscopic blood in the urinalysis but that was it. First BAT was 48 (done by a different vet...went there for a second opinion) Second, was a snap BAT in which my vet said her numbers were pretty much this same (keep in mind this was only over the span of about a week). Since then she's been on metrodonazole and metocylamide (for vomiting), but she ran out of medicine about a week ago. She was fine off the medicine until last night when she threw up just a tablespoon of food about two hours after eating. When she went to slept, she was very restless and hopped up a few times to do this sort of snort type thing. The vet wants to do an ultrasound next, but I thought I'd tell them I wanted her on liver support medicine and a low protein food..then do another BAT in about a month.

Thanks EllieMay for all of the info on what protein she can eat, etc. I've got a nice page of notes!

Also of note - she shows no neurological signs. Her only symptom is the random vomitting.
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:14 AM   #8
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She's had two CBC's and a Urinalysis which came back ok. They found a little microscopic blood in the urinalysis but that was it. First BAT was 48 (done by a different vet...went there for a second opinion) Second, was a snap BAT in which my vet said her numbers were pretty much this same (keep in mind this was only over the span of about a week). Since then she's been on metrodonazole and metocylamide (for vomiting), but she ran out of medicine about a week ago. She was fine off the medicine until last night when she threw up just a tablespoon of food about two hours after eating. When she went to slept, she was very restless and hopped up a few times to do this sort of snort type thing. The vet wants to do an ultrasound next, but I thought I'd tell them I wanted her on liver support medicine and a low protein food..then do another BAT in about a month.

Thanks EllieMay for all of the info on what protein she can eat, etc. I've got a nice page of notes!

Also of note - she shows no neurological signs. Her only symptom is the random vomitting.
Ok. How old is she? What food was she eating when the vomitting started? When did the vomitting start?
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:36 AM   #9
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Ok. How old is she? What food was she eating when the vomitting started? When did the vomitting start?
She will be 1 on Sept. 12th.
I have a whole thread here which talks about what's been going on if that helps. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...ing-again.html

She was on Wellness Puppy.

The vomitting started the end of July. It was about 4x over the course of 2 days.After an episode of her vomitting 13 x in one night a few days later, the vet thought she had a bacterical infection and put her on Hills i/d, an antibiotic, and anti-nausea/vomitting liquid. She's been on that ever since until around last wednesday - no problems. Had a few episodes of dry heaving for about two days..then was fine until last night.
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Old 08-26-2008, 12:11 PM   #10
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I talked to another vet, and he gave me Denamarin for liver support and suggested Hills L/D.

Since I really don't like Hills, I was thinking about California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato. Which would you choose? Hills is 14.5% protein...CN is 21%.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:05 PM   #11
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Hill's L/D dry is not recommended because it contains ethoxyquin(a carcinogen) as a preservative, the canned L/D does not contain that, and many liver compromised dogs eat this food.
Dr. Center does not recommend red meat or fish for liver compromised dogs as they are encephalogenic...Many of her articles state that vegetarian and dairy protein produce much less ammonia and are preferred...
Natural Balance Vegetarian or Avoderm Vegetarian might be some foods that you might want to try.
I would definitely put her on a veg diet and liver supplements (like the Denamarin that you are using) and recheck the BAT in a few weeks.
She may or may not have a liver problem.
Did they check her urine pH? Did they see any crystals? The tiny bit of blood would concern me...
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:56 PM   #12
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I know what you mean about hating S/D. Mandy was on K/D. I kept her on it for awhile and she is doing better. I have since changed her to canned Innovia. It has a pretty low protein count. Lower than some. I just don't think some vets are up on nutriction like they should be. Some of just the vegetable foods like Natures Receipe and some others I have tried she just doesn't like. I just try to feed her a good food with carrots, apples or something like that for snacks. Good luck with that little one because I know its hard.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:17 AM   #13
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I know what you mean about hating S/D. Mandy was on K/D. I kept her on it for awhile and she is doing better. I have since changed her to canned Innovia. It has a pretty low protein count. Lower than some. I just don't think some vets are up on nutriction like they should be. Some of just the vegetable foods like Natures Receipe and some others I have tried she just doesn't like. I just try to feed her a good food with carrots, apples or something like that for snacks. Good luck with that little one because I know its hard.
I like feeding my dog kibble so it helps keep her teeth clean. Plus, she's had problems with her anal glands...and the kibble helped her with that. So, I guess my question is since you are feeding yours canned, do you have any problems with Mandy's teeth or anal glands/scooting?

If we could come up with a quality low protein kibble, we'd make millions! haha. It seems like so many of us here at YT have dogs with liver problems, that there would be something out there available to us!

Thanks again everyone for the help and suggestions. Hopefully, we'll get on track soon and carry on as normal.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:35 AM   #14
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I brush coppers teeth to keep them clean and I have read that you can add some roughly chopped veggies like carrots to help with glands, I would use a canned or home cooked food with better ingredients before I would worry about glands and teeth which both could be done mannually. I agree that it would be great to have a quality low protein kibble maybe we should make one

I hope that she starts to feel better soon, I understand the feeding frustration, finding that balance is hard.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:46 AM   #15
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I've been on dogfoodanalysis all morning looking for something. I really like the Wellness brand, but the lowest protein in that Super5 mix Chicken at (not less than) 22%, or Wellness Simple Solutions Rice & Duck (21%). I also liked Naturapet California Natural Lamb & Rice (21%)

Are all of these still too high for a liver compromised dog?

Thanks for all the info! I just tried to call my vet, but of course....not in today. ARGH!
The Wellness Healthy Weight only has 16% protein in it. I use it on my Maltese and he is doing great on it.
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