Just gave Millie a raw chicken wing...

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by RawfedYorkieLuv

Probiotics help promote a good gut flora, recommended after a trial of antibiotics and has recently been a debate on raw fed lists as a possible unnecessary supplement to our dogs as the viability of this organism, traveling down a dog's extremely acid digestive tract, is seriously being questioned.

Oooh, Nadia - interesting....
The stomach is really the acidic environment, so I wonder if the flora capsule was in a buffered delivery system? So, I guess we need to find out where gelatin caps (and, then, vegetarian caps) are broken down - in the tummy or in the small intestine? Also, I wonder where/how they are actually obtaining viability info for this organism once it's in the body? I mean, theoretically, it must be a rather stable organism since it lives within the intestines.

COOL. Thanks for the info!

[RawfedYorkieLuv]

I should've said "gastrointestinal transit", my bad!
Please bear with me as I'm not a Chemist/Doctor/Zoologist etc. so I'll try to relay the discussions that took place and how I deciphered them in my own layman's term's, lol!
Veterinary Microbiology has not been able to conclude a definite effectiveness on certain probiotic supplements for canines, but here's an article regarding humans;
ScienceDirect - International Journal of Food Microbiology : Gastrointestinal transit survival of an Enterococcus faecium probiotic strain administered with or without vancomycin

There are several concerns when speaking of the same terms in dogs; Probiotics naturally occur in the types of foods carnivores in the wild simply do not consume as part of the regular food chain (it's been proven that the stomach contents of prey are strewn about at the kill site). There are several different strains that fall into the probiotic category. Probiotic supplements that are typically sold to dog owners and humans alike are fermented and plant based, hence we're back to the first assertion plus there is the question of label accuracy and quality. Here's a link to a published article regarding evaluation of probiotics in pet foods;
Bacteriological evaluation of dog and cat diets that claim to contain probiotics

Another important factor is that a human's stomach acidity levels operate generally at the pH5 level. A dogs's stomach acid level is at pH1 which would be in comparison a 0.4% solution of Hydorchloric Acid which cannot be handled with bare hands, so the assumption is that anything and everything will be broken down in there! This next article mentions tests of viability at pH level 3 and quotes adhesion to intestinal mucus at 4 to 11%. Further invesitgation and clarification was not possible as the site was restricted however and further more, did the tested fecal matter come from kibble or raw fed dogs? Wild carnivores? Pets that have been fed probiotic supplements???;
ScienceDirect - Veterinary Microbiology : Selection of enterococci for potential canine probiotic additives

Here's what I found upon investigating E. faecalis EE4 and E. faecium EF01;
ThreeLac is perfectly safe and this strain is too - FDA tested every year at the border. Here's more... at Candida Debate Forum

Another concern with the viability factor is commercially produced pet food and prey model food (meat for human consumption) alike shares its supply source from commercially fed animals, commonly reared with antibiotics which all strains of probiotics are extremely sensitive to! But what about wild carnivores that eat wild prey, excluded from the commercial food supply? Typically, a kill is consumed on dirt/soil which contains microorganisms. Could this be the key? Should we let our dogs eat on top of dirt outside? But what about the soil quality in our own back yards and the concern of possible pesticides etc. Here in the southwest, we have the ever so present Valley Fever fungus to worry about so I chose NOT to feed my dogs on dirt.

To sum it all up, too little is known about this. I supplemented my senior yorkie with probiotics for some time and while I have heard of certain benefits (even some prey model feeders swear by it and report positive changes), I personally have not noticed a significant difference that I could attribute in favor of probiotics or against them and many others on this particular list haven't either hence the reason for this particular discussion in the first place. Whether food supply contamination is myth or truth or plays any significant role or not, my dogs fare much more better on prey model than on processed pellets...based on my research and talks with other prey model feeders coupled with my observations/experiences with my own dogs, I have decided that supplementing my dogs with probiotics is no longer acceptable. I will say this though, I would love to get my dog's stools tested while they're on and then off probiotics! P.S. the probiotics in question were the kinds of powder (not contained in a pill), liquid and paste.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Oooh, Nadia - interesting....
The stomach is really the acidic environment, so I wonder if the flora capsule was in a buffered delivery system? So, I guess we need to find out where gelatin caps (and, then, vegetarian caps) are broken down - in the tummy or in the small intestine? Also, I wonder where/how they are actually obtaining viability info for this organism once it's in the body? I mean, theoretically, it must be a rather stable organism since it lives within the intestines.

COOL. Thanks for the info!

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[shell820810]

I am still scared giving the chicken wings. Millie got a small bit of the bone she had bitten off, stuck horizontally in her mouth. She pawed to get it out, but couldnt, and luckily I was able to. Are there any softer, less dangerous bones (dangerous for me - going to take a heart attack every time I giver her a chicken wing!).

Also, is she getting enough? I have started giving her minced beef from the supermarket. She is about 3lb 5, and 2-3% would be 1.6oz. I have frozen 1oz lumps of mince, and have given her 2 of these a day. It seems tiny, and she has it age in less than 1 minute. Is it enough - from the measurements, it seems like I am overfeeding her! I am leaving kibble out during the day in case she is hungry, but since getting the raw she doesnt want the kibble anymore.

Also, what is a balanced daily plan. Is mince twice a day giving her enough nutrients. I know there is loads of info on this, but it is really overwhelming!

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by RawfedYorkieLuv

...Another important factor is that a human's stomach acidity levels operate generally at the pH5 level. A dogs's stomach acid level is at pH1 which would be in comparison a 0.4% solution of Hydorchloric Acid which cannot be handled with bare hands, so the assumption is that anything and everything will be broken down in there! This next article...

To sum it all up, too little is known about this. I supplemented my senior yorkie with probiotics for some time and while I have heard of certain benefits (even some prey model feeders swear by it and report positive changes), I personally have not noticed a significant difference that I could attribute in favor of probiotics or against them and many others on this particular list haven't either hence the reason for this particular discussion in the first place. Whether food supply contamination is myth or truth or plays any significant role or not, my dogs fare much more better on prey model than on processed pellets...based on my research and talks with other prey model feeders coupled with my observations/experiences with my own dogs, I have decided that supplementing my dogs with probiotics is no longer acceptable. I will say this though, I would love to get my dog's stools tested while they're on and then off probiotics! P.S. the probiotics in question were the kinds of powder (not contained in a pill), liquid and paste.

Wow, all of that was really fascinating. The big take-aways for me right now (based on current literature) is 1) dog food stating that it contains probiotics may contain none that are viable at all and 2) even if they are viable, they may not survive the pH of a dog's stomach anyway.

Very interesting! I wonder if there are any probiotics that are properly buffered to NOT release until they are in the small intestine. I guess that's what a dog would really need if you truly wanted to try to deliver probiotics to the sm. intestine (theoretically, I should say). Feeding yogurt could be absolutely useless, but until they do more studies - I guess we won't know for sure. Argh.