Nature's Logic.....what do you think?

[Woogie Man]

Here's a link to a dog foo company I've just found out about. Nature's Logic Would some of you 'foodies' take a look and tell me what you think. I like the idea that all the vitamins are derived from natural sources. They also use plasma as a source of nutrients which I've never heard of but it sounds interesting. I'm satisfied with the food I'm using now, but have become concerned about the chemical compounds used as vitamin sources. This seems to have a different approach. Anyway, I'd really appreciate it if you'd tell me what you think of it. Thanks!!

[Wylie's Mom]

Just for kicks, I looked at their chicken kibble (not sure what/which you're interested in), venison canned, and chicken raw frozen. On the "animal plasma" - they make some pretty lofty claims and say "Research Shows" - but then didn't footnote their research to what they immediately claimed - so that was kind of a red flag, but perhaps it is there somewhere on the site. I would hope that research is published and peer-reviewed.

I feed raw - so, in looking at the raw - it said "egg shell meal" - which is odd for raw. With raw feeding, you should toss in the entire egg, period. So, they seemed to miss the mark there. And, I'm kind of wondering what's up with all of these powders (in ALL the foods).

The kibble was fairly good. Again, the "powders" and the partial egg. Nice probiotic and enzymes though. I would much rather, as always, see Fish Oil than flax for Omegas. It does contain the Mont. Clay, like Natures Variety, and that's great! It's not grain free. The meat content seems okay.

I like the canned better than the kibble. Simpler. Has the clay again (good thing). I'm kind of wondering why they've excluded some of the probios/enzymes here though.

So, overall - not too bad, but there are others out there I like better.

[Woogie Man]

The main thing that caught my attention was the use of natural ingredients as vitamin sources. I was only looking at the kibble. Seems like every other kibble uses chemical compounds as vitamin sources and I've been reading some disturbing info about this. The vitamins I take are from natural sources and I much prefer that. I actually prefer the flaxseed as opposed to fish oil. I've taken both myself and seem to get more benefit from flaxseed oil than from fish oil. Not sure about the use of fruit and vegetable powders. I don't see it as a negative in kibble. The use of plasma seems interesting but saw no data on it but also found nothing negative said about it on some food review sites. The vitamin source in this food really strikes me as a positive and distinctive difference. Thanks for looking it over. It's caught my attention enough to try a bag.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I actually prefer the flaxseed as opposed to fish oil. I've taken both myself and seem to get more benefit from flaxseed oil than from fish oil.

It's different for dogs though - since it's a grain source, many dogs can't convert it, so not only can they *not* use the Omegas, but it also makes them itchy. So, just a word of caution there...

[Woogie Man]

Thanks for the heads-up. I never considered it from that perspective. I have been using flaxseed oil on my dogs for about 3 months now and have noticed nothing but a benefit from it. Their skin has a more supple texture and the hair seems to have a bit more luster to it. Also, the kibble they're on now (Drs. Foster & Smith) has whole flaxseed in it so I suppose mine have good tolerance for it. I've used it for almost 2 years now and they seem to do well on it. Like I said, the thing that interests me about the Nature's Logic is the fact they use natural vitamin sources. Do you know of any other kibble that does that? I would be interested in any that do. Thanks for the input you've given me so far. I do value your opinion and appreciate your looking at this for me.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Thanks for the heads-up. I never considered it from that perspective. I have been using flaxseed oil on my dogs for about 3 months now and have noticed nothing but a benefit from it. Their skin has a more supple texture and the hair seems to have a bit more luster to it. Also, the kibble they're on now (Drs. Foster & Smith) has whole flaxseed in it so I suppose mine have good tolerance for it. I've used it for almost 2 years now and they seem to do well on it. Like I said, the thing that interests me about the Nature's Logic is the fact they use natural vitamin sources. Do you know of any other kibble that does that? I would be interested in any that do. Thanks for the input you've given me so far. I do value your opinion and appreciate your looking at this for me.

It's not all dogs, just many - so you're lucky bc I think flax is more ubiquitous . But, you know what's really weird about that "whole flax seed" in food...? You/they shouldn't be able to do much with it. Whole flax seed, on its own, is pretty much a "moot" seed, unless you want some roughage, LOL! Or, unless you/they can crunch/decimate the outer lining of each little seed. To get the benefit from the seed - you have to get to the inner part of it, so the outer part of it needs to be broken down. Most dogs will poo-out the whole seeds as is, unfortunately. So, that's why it's probably best as either ground or made into an oil - so I always wonder why the whole seed?

Now, since I bored you to death with all that - on to the other part. As for other kibbles with natural sources, it depends, what are you defining as natural? I'm never even quite sure myself these days....

[Woogie Man]

I guess I should have been more clear about the whole flax seed. I've read that you want to see 'whole flax seed' rather than just 'flax seed' as an ingredient. For a kibble, either would have to be ground up but the whole seed is the one that is supposed to be better. What I mean by 'natural' as far as vitamins go, it would be vitamins derived from food sources rather than chemical compounds. I'm thinking that's why Nature's Logic uses so many food powders. That way, nutritional content could be accurately controlled and measured. The one chemical compound I heard of that worries me most is mendione dimethylpyrimindonol bisulfate which is used for vitamin K. It's been associated with dogs chewing their paws and I found one source that stated it has been banned by the EU (European Union), though I couldn't find any other reference to such a ban. I'm just mainly trying to go as natural as possible in a kibble and I much prefer natural source vitamins for myself and would like to find a similar product for my dogs. Frankly, I'd like to see a food produced without added vitamins so I could give them to my dogs separately and would be able to control the quality of the vitamins better. Hope this explains what I'm looking for a bit better. Thanks, Ann, for your input. Jim

[Wylie's Mom]

Yes, Menadione is a giant red flag - and you'd never see it in a premium food (or should never); terrible K3 derivative, toxic even.

I see what you're getting at - and off the top of my head, I can't think of any kibbles that call out "food sources" as their vitamin source, but they may still use them. There are some canned foods that are just 95% meat with almost no additives, so you may be able to do your own vits that way (I'm thinking Fromms, Merrick and Wysong, I believe) - but can't think of any kibbles. I'm going to be keeping my eye out for this though, bc I do think it's less common. Would like to hear how they do.

[Woogie Man]

Right now, I'm feeding my dogs just kibble (Foster & Smith) in the morning and kibble mixed with canned (Authority) in the evening, along with flaxseed oil mixed in. I've seen some kibble that doesn't have the menadione for vitamin k but uses chemical compounds for other vitamin sources. I do cook for them occasionally but mostly use dog food for their daily feeding. I just got the menadione info recently and the kibble I use has it in it so I'm shopping for a new food now. That's how I ran across the Nature's Logic. With nothing else I know of at this time, I think I'll try it for a while and see how they do on it. It's so hard to find a truly good food but this one seems closer to filling the bill than any others I know of.

[Woogie Man]

Well, I went ahead and made the plunge....I ordered 2 large bags of Nature's Logic...1 of the chicken and 1 of the lamb variety. I also ordered 4 Antlerz for my dogs to try. We'll see how it goes. I also called Foster & Smith up to talk about their use of menadione as a vitamin k source. The folks in the food lab area were gone for the day but are supposed to get back with me on it. They've tweaked their formula in the past so I'm hoping I can convince them to remove this additive from their food. It's a generally good food and is recommended by The Whole Dog Journal but this ingredient (menadione) has become a real sticking point for me since I found out about it. I'll post back after I've had my dogs on the Nature's Logic for a bit and also if Foster & Smith gets back to me about their formula.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The Whole Dog Journal but this ingredient (menadione) has become a real sticking point for me since I found out about it. I'll post back after I've had my dogs on the Nature's Logic for a bit and also if Foster & Smith gets back to me about their formula.

Hope NL works out ! If not, there are ALOT of premium foods that don't use menadione - so you'd still have a whole lot of options if you don't like NL.

[Woogie Man]

Well, I'm happy to say that Foster and Smith got back to me today. One of the Drs. called and we discussed my concerns about their food. She told me that they had changed from using menadione dimethylpyrimidonol bisulfate to menadione sodium bisulfate, citing some German data about the safety of these products. She explained that there are 3 forms of menadione and that one of these forms must be used to get the vitamin k in the product. Supposedly, the form they just switched to is the better of the 3. Their website hasn't been changed to reflect the switch but, sure enough, it's on the bag's ingredient list. I looked around at some other foods and some use this ingredient and some use no form of it at all. Do the ones that use no form of it have no vitamin k added? Also, do you know if menadione sodium bisulfate is truly safer than the other form? While I was on the phone with the Dr., I mentioned the Nature's Logic. She was intrigued enough by it to go to their website while we were talking. She mentioned that they had tried to go that route in the past but had problems developing the formula so, apparently, the concept of natural vitamin sources has some validity. One thing about the Nature's Logic...the feeding guideline for a 50 pound dog is 2.4 cups daily, which is really low compared to many other brands so it must be a really nutrient dense food. Sorry to bend you ear so much about this, but this brand seems to be one no one has heard of so I'm kind of alone in checking this out. I'm glad you're responding though. You're one of the people here whose opinion I value most on this subject. Jim

[Wylie's Mom]

It's nice that you got through - it really is good to talk to someone in person, isn't it? It's always been my understanding that *all* forms of menadione should be avoided. Here is a bookmark that I always keep handy, do you have this one?

Many foods don't use K at all. They don't really need it (as you can read on that page), but they likely still get it. My guys, for example, eat Natures Variety Raw frozen - so, through their own gut fermentation (which makes K2) and the bit of greens in the raw (which brings K1), they're covered. Just not synthetically - which YOU probably like better anyway . What is reassuring is that there are plenty of folks feeding premium foods w/ zero menadione - and also ZERO clotting problems (so, they're still getting their K naturally).

As for volume, it can be odd - you should see raw! For NV Raw, it is so dense that you feed even less, so it does make sense to me that if NL is more nutrient dense, they recommend less volume. It's always such a psychological adjustment when changing volumes (I think more for the humans ). I don't mind ya bendin' my ear!

[Woogie Man]

Thanks for the link. Wow.....what an eye-opener. This was the most complete info I've read so far on the subject. I didn't know the FDA had banned menadione from use in supplements. Based on that, and the other facts presented, I agree with the writer's logic completely. Think I'll be forwarding this to Foster & Smith and see if I get a further response. In the meantime, I'm actually anxious to get the Nature's Logic in and try it out. I know you, and some other on here, are raw food fans but I just can't make that leap. The one thing that concerns me about raw is comparing it to how wolves, coyotes, etc. eat. That may be true but, on average, these animals don't live as long as a domestic dog so I have to wonder about feeding raw for 15 years or so. Is there any long-term data you know of about the effects of raw feeding over the full life span of domestic dogs? I like the idea of raw but this is the reason I've never tried it and all I've seen so far has been anecdotal evidence. Thanks, Ann, for all the info you've given me. It's been very helpful and I've enjoyed discussing all this with you. Jim

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Thanks for the link. Wow.....what an eye-opener. This was the most complete info I've read so far on the subject. I didn't know the FDA had banned menadione from use in supplements. Based on that, and the other facts presented, I agree with the writer's logic completely. Think I'll be forwarding this to Foster & Smith and see if I get a further response. In the meantime, I'm actually anxious to get the Nature's Logic in and try it out. I know you, and some other on here, are raw food fans but I just can't make that leap. The one thing that concerns me about raw is comparing it to how wolves, coyotes, etc. eat. That may be true but, on average, these animals don't live as long as a domestic dog so I have to wonder about feeding raw for 15 years or so. Is there any long-term data you know of about the effects of raw feeding over the full life span of domestic dogs? I like the idea of raw but this is the reason I've never tried it and all I've seen so far has been anecdotal evidence. Thanks, Ann, for all the info you've given me. It's been very helpful and I've enjoyed discussing all this with you. Jim

There are plenty of people who don't feed raw - and believe me, I really understand why. I do think dogs can get a good diet on premium kibbles/canned and on homecooking. I did both of those too. The more I read about raw though, the more it made complete sense to me: in my head and in my gut. Almost ALL of the health problems we currently see spiking in our dogs coincide with 2 major things: the advent of kibble and overvaccination. So, that's what 60 years of kibble has brought us (in my mind).

Then I look at the 1 Million years or so of evolution, and it's proof enough to me that the animals knew what they should be eating all along. Our little doggies, pampered as they are, are still canines and carnivores - little stinkers. They just didn't evolve into kibble eaters, as much as the darn petfood industry would have us believe . So, those million years are my long term study. And the proliferation of allergies, teeth decay (there are studies tying that to kibble and vaccination), joint problems etcetera are tightly correlated to that time in the 40s when that fella thought up kibble, and we stopped feeding "real food".

Also, I don't think there are any *true* studies that show us we *should* feed kibble, either (unless sponsored by petfood industry). So again, even with kibble - we're going off of anecdotal experience - it's just that we're more familiar w/ the experience bc it's in our lifetime (vs. say, back in the '30s when perhaps they were feeding raw scraps - which could then be our anecdote).

So, there's the loooooong of it - but it kinda takes "long" to explain that part of it. Btw, if you're curious about it - here is a link about raw myths. I have other links too, but this one is kind of nice just from a curiosity perspective.

I think 60 years ago, we took a GIANT misguided leap in feeding our dogs kibble, without ANY reason/proof to feed it except that it saved money after the Depression. Now, I finally see a move to feed them, once again, what they were meant to eat: meat in it's natural state (or, at least closer to it).

I've had fun discussing this too, I could hang in here ALL day!