What is a desireable protein level?

[Lee B]

So many of the "high-end" dog foods run very high in protein, like 40-42%.

Logically, it would seem that the higher the protein level, the better it would be for the dog. However, I am old enough to know that "logic" isn't always logical ...

Is protein this high good for them? The kibble to which I refer would be Nature's Variety (Instinct), or Orijen, or Wellness ... all of which are rated 6-Star (and no grains).

Thanks for your input.

[bchgirl]

One of the problems with dog food labels is the fact they can list high protein levels...because it sounds good, but not all protein is digestible. Check the labels...you want protein from real chicken or real lamb.

I don't know which variety wellness you're looking at...but I feed Wellness Fish and Sweet Potato. The percentage of protein is 22%-24%...that's from memory...regardless it's one of the lower protein foods out there.

Another consideration with high protein foods...they must USE that protein...meaning very very active dogs. If it's not used...some will be in their waste and some will result in weight gain. Dogs with kidney issues shouldn't eat high protein foods. Yorkies as a breed are prone to kidney problems...

There are loads of threads on the topic...I guess essentially you have to decide what works best for your dog.

[Lee B]

The Instinct Chicken reads like this:

Calories:
490 / cup


Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Tapioca, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Pumpkinseeds, Menhaden Fish Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Chicken Flavor, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Folic Acid), Kelp, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Chicken Liver, Sea Salt, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Apples, Carrots, Peas, Cottage Cheese, Chicken Eggs, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Rosemary Extract, Sage, Clove


GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
CRUDE PROTEIN (min.) 42.0%
CRUDE FAT (min.) 22.0%
CRUDE FIBER (max.) 3.2%
MOISTURE (max.) 10.0%


OHTER NUTRITIONAL DATA
CALCIUM (min.) 2.49%
PHOSPHORUS (min.) 1.43%
VITAMIN E (min.) IU/kg 128.6
VITAMIN C* (min.) mg/kg 50
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS* (min.) 3.61%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS* (min.) 0.69%
* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.


VITAMINS
CAROTENE mg/kg 8.29
VITAMIN A IU/kg 21318
VITAMIN D IU/kg 2433
VITAMIN K mg/kg 0.75
THIAMINE mg/kg 19.25
RIBOFLAVIN mg/kg 12.25
PANTOTHENIC ACID mg/kg 23.27
BIOTIN mg/kg 0.608
FOLIC ACID mg/kg 0.675
CHOLINE mg/kg 5868
VITAMIN B12 mg/kg 0.236
VITAMIN B6 mg/kg 4.4
NIACIN mg/kg 79.87
IODINE mg/kg 5.5


MINERALS
SODIUM 0.389%
POTASSIUM 0.878%
CHLORINE 0.688%
MAGNESIUM 0.142%
SULFUR 0.383%
MANGANESE mg/kg 33.6
IRON mg/kg 333.8
COPPER mg/kg 25.86
ZINC mg/kg 277.1
SELENIUM mg/kg 0.794


AMINO ACIDS
METHIONINE-CYSTINE 1.384%
METHIONINE 0.91%
CYSTINE 0.474%
LYSINE 2.98%
TRYPTOPHAN 0.48%
THREONINE 2.11%
ISOLEUCINE 1.866%
HISTIDINE 1.031%
VALINE 2.104%
LEUCINE 3.596%
ARGININE 2.665%
PHENYLALANINE-TYROSINE 1.95%
TAURINE 0.085%




The Orijen Puppy that they're eating now (in addition to their raw breakfast) looks like this:

Ingredients:
Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat, sweet potato, whole eggs, turkey, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, salmon, natural chicken flavour, sunflower oil, sun-cured alfalfa, dried brown kelp, carrots, spinach, peas, tomatoes, apples, psyllium, dulse, glucosamine Hcl, cranberries, black currants, rosemary extract, chondroitin sulfate, sea salt.


TONIC HERBS AND BOTANICALS
Chicory root, licorice root, tumeric root, funugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, zea mays, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosehips.


ORGANIC MINERALS
Iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate.


PROBIOTIC MICROORGANISMS
Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.


PREMIUM VITAMINS
Mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E), choline chloride, vitamin A, vitamin D3, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12, folic acid, biotin.

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein 42.0%
Fat 20.0%
Carbohydrate 18.0%
Moisture 10.0%
Fiber 2.5%
Calcium (min.) 1.4%
Calcium (max.) 1.6%
Phosphorus (min.) 1.0%
Phosphorus (max.) 1.2%
Omega-6 3.0%
Omega-3 1.0%
Glucosamine 500 mg/kg
Chondroitin 150 mg/kg
Microorganisms 80M cfu/kg
pH 5.0
Ash (min.) 6.5%
Ash (max.) 7.0%
Botanical Analysis
Chicory root 700 mg/kg
Licorice root 500 mg/kg
Fenugreek 350 mg/kg
Marigold flowers 350 mg/kg
Sweet fennel 350 mg/kg
Peppermint leaf 300 mg/kg
Chamomile flowers 300 mg/kg
Dandelion 150 mg/kg
Summer savory 150 mg/kg
Rosehips 150 mg/kg


Vitamins
Vitamin A 34 kIU/kg
Vitamin D3 2.0 kIU/kg
Vitamin E 400 IU/kg
Vitamin K 2.5 IU/kg
Vitamin B12 460 IU/kg
Thiamine 65 mg/kg
Riboflavin 55 mg/kg
Niacin 248 mg/kg
Pan. acid 46 mg/kg
Pyridoxine 30 mg/kg
Biotin 0.46 mg/kg
Folic acid 3.5 mg/kg
Choline 3550 mg/kg
Ascorbic acid 65 mg/kg
Beta carotene 0.66 mg/kg


AMINO ACIDS
Taurine 0.22 mg/kg
T. Lysine 1.9%
T. Threonine 1.8%
T. Methionine 1.0%
T. Isoleucine 1.8%
T. Leucine 2.0%
T. Valine 2.0%
T. Arginine 3.2%
T. Phen. 1.6%
T. Histidine 1.1
T. Cystine 0.5%


MINERALS
Sodium 0.3%
Chloride 0.5%
Potassium 0.6%
Magnesium 0.09%
Sulphur 0.4%
Iron 250 mg/kg
Zinc 204 mg/kg
Copper 24 mg/kg
Manganese 24 mg/kg
Cobalt 0.55 mg/kg
Iodine 4 mg/kg
Selenium 0.38 mg/kg


ORIJEN Puppy has a biologically correct (70/30/0) ingredient ratio of 70% meat, and 30% fruit and vegetables (with 0% grain) that are low temperature cooked at 90c to preserve their natural goodness.


I was just afraid it may be a matter of "killing them with kindness", if ya know what I mean. They LOVE it - which means (like candy!) there's got to be a down side.

[bchgirl]

If I had to choose between those two...I'd pick the ORIJEN...reading the list of ingrediants of the Instinct chicken...there are several different meal products listed. That's ground up processed chicken etc...and could be anything not...just meat.

Did you see how many different kinds of eggs is in the Instinct? Not that I have anything against eggs, but was surprised ...there are like 5 different types of eggs. I don't think someone standing at the plant cracking eggs either...

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Lee B

So many of the "high-end" dog foods run very high in protein, like 40-42%.

Logically, it would seem that the higher the protein level, the better it would be for the dog. However, I am old enough to know that "logic" isn't always logical ...

Is protein this high good for them? The kibble to which I refer would be Nature's Variety (Instinct), or Orijen, or Wellness ... all of which are rated 6-Star (and no grains).

Thanks for your input.

I think you've made GREAT choices. I feed NV's raw - but NV's kibble and Orijen are 2 I think are good kibbles.

They are higher protein and species appropriate. The time to worry about protein is when you have a dog with kidney/liver/pancreas disease. Otherwise, what you're feeding is top notch.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I don't think someone standing at the plant cracking eggs either...

LOL!!

"I'd like my yolks and whites separated please!"

Actually, I believe they put them in whole. Most raw feeding is based on giving the entire egg, so I'm sure they use the shells as they're such a good source of calcium too.

I didn't know you were such a dog-foodie too, Deb! LOVE it!

[Lee B]

I found a store the other day that carries the most high-end food of any place I've ever seen, including on-line stores. So I had the opportunity to "sticky-finger" all kinds of food ... I must have spent three hours there. They also carry several lines of frozen, prepared raw (Nature's Variety, Dr. Billings ???? - *his* stuff!, and Steve's something-or-other).

Previously, the pups had been eating the Nature's Variety raw foods, with the Instinct (Chicken) as nibble food. But I came home with all kinds of new food for them to try ... frozen and kibble. They REALLY like the Orijen. I thought it looked pretty good, too.

[Ellie May]

Menadione? What's up with that???

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Menadione? What's up with that???

I don't know where he pulled his list from, but they don't use Menadione - as far as I ever knew. Here is the ingredient list from their website:

Instinct: Chicken Meal Formula: Grain-Free Kibble for Dogs | Nature's Variety

[Lee B]

Not "he": SHE! I get that a lot

I got the food list here:
Dog Food Reviews - Instinct Chicken Meal Formula - Powered by ReviewPost

There's a lot of info on that site ...

[Charlie Roo]

I just checked the ingredients on my bag of Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Meal and it does not list Menadione as an ingredient. Not sure where that site info came from, but it should be corrected.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Charlie Roo

I just checked the ingredients on my bag of Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Meal and it does not list Menadione as an ingredient. Not sure where that site info came from, but it should be corrected.

I sent them an email.