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Old 03-22-2008, 08:05 AM   #1
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Default high protein kiddble against pre-made raw

so i used to feed morgan NV raw. she loved it. however it didn't do anything for her like it does for others. her mouth still stank, her teeth didn't get any whiter and her tear stains were still bad. and nothing can help her poofy coat.

so i did an experiment and put her back on kibble. She is eating solid gold wee bits right now which she likes more then other kibble i had her on pre-raw food. I like the convenience of kibble but hate the poop size and pick up.

so i went to a holistic pet store and asked if they have any kibble that will provide almost the said poop results as raw. They told me to try Evo. I told them that when morgan was younger i had tried her on this and a few mornings out of the week she would vomit bile. So i stopped feeding it. It could have been that she was too young to eat it though so i took a sample and tried it out. things seemed to be going well on day and two, but then on morning three she vomited bile, which she hasn't done in a while. So i figured it was the EVO and stopped mixing it with her solid gold.

EVO red meat has 42% protein.
NV venison has says it has 13% protein.

I never looked at this before but just assumed the raw would be higher in protein. Its not. In fact it has less protein then solid gold kibble she's eating now.

so maybe i'm missing something. i have been a little off lately. Maybe someone can explain this to me. How is it that some people who are against raw say its too high in protein when in fact its not? is it just the possible bacteria that worries people then?
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:21 AM   #2
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wow i just noticed i can't spell LOL kiddble? suppose to say kibble
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:35 AM   #3
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this is a great question and i would love the know the answer as well

mine love NV
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:49 AM   #4
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ok, where are all the people that like to debate this subject??? LOL

i want to hear what you guys have to say on both sides
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:53 AM   #5
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This is sooo off topic but...
kalina82 is your girls hair shaved? under the clothes? Im trying to get a new hair do for my Lana and was wondering how your girls cut.
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:56 AM   #6
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This is sooo off topic but...
kalina82 is your girls hair shaved? under the clothes? Im trying to get a new hair do for my Lana and was wondering how your girls cut.
LOL i'll pm you
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:11 PM   #7
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Thanks for the explaination
Ive done the same thing, we did RAW for a few months then the EVO and I too had to quit the EVO since it made them throw up. I dont understand the protien thing either, we ended up on DVP potato and duck and so far so good. Where is everyone?
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:17 PM   #8
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Thanks for the explaination
Ive done the same thing, we did RAW for a few months then the EVO and I too had to quit the EVO since it made them throw up. I dont understand the protien thing either, we ended up on DVP potato and duck and so far so good. Where is everyone?
hopefully everyone's getting ready for Easter tomorrow and not ignoring me
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:33 PM   #9
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Great thread, can't wait to hear some answers!
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:09 PM   #10
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You need to take into account the amount of moisture in the raw (considering there's NONE in dry).

NV's Venison Formula (according to their website) has a max moisture content of 68% and min protein content of 13%.

Start with 100%, subtract out the moisture content.
100-68 = 32% (which is the dry content matter)
Take that 13% protein, divided by the 32% dry content and you get .41 or 41%

So really they're pretty close to each other.

But you also need to consider the quality of the protein source. Real meat is more easily digested than the processed meats found in kibble. It's likely that more of the raw protein was digested than that in the kibble.

Have you had her tear ducts flushed? I've seen them get plugged enough times.... Or maybe she doesn't have any! I met a dog once that actually didn't have tear ducts so he was always tearing/staining because his tears didn't drain properly.

Did you try adding fish oil to the raw? I've found it helps tremendously with skin/coat. One of my long haired cats doesn't mat since I've started her on it and all of them shed markedly less.

NV raw medallions aren't enough to help her teeth. Once tartar is formed it needs to be physically removed and the soft texture of the raw won't do that. You need bones for that (or a dental cleaning). My kids love chicken necks. There's a lot of bone on 'em and they're forced to chew and crunch on them, which scrapes their teeth in the process.


Even if you didn't visibly see the benefits of raw, they're still there..... I could go on and on, but since you're asking about the protein and not really the benefits and for the sake of keeping the thread on topic, I won't.
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Old 03-22-2008, 03:00 PM   #11
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Thanks Kelly for the breakdown of moisture and protein. When i use that formula for the evo it comes out to .45 so it is really close in protein matter.

so more protein in the raw was processed in the raw making less waste, but since its harder to process the protein in the kibble more is wasted hence the larger poops that don't go away even tho solid gold is considered a great kibble.

what i'm having trouble with i guess is that while i like feeding raw for some of the results it produces i'm still worried that since its "new" it may cause worse results in the end. kibble is what we all grew up with. all of us have seen dogs on kibble live very very long lives. The doc i work with has a 13 year old english mastiff (pretty old for a large breed dog) and that dog used to live on gaines burgers.

i want to fed raw but i feel like what if something bad happens years down the road from now and its linked back to the raw diet. I would be the only one to blame for whatever happens to my dog. I'd feel horrible because everyone else around me had been telling me that i shouldn't feed raw and i was making her sick.

i wish there were scientific articles or peer reviews journals that had information about a raw diet. there are no vets around here that i've met that approve of the raw diet. maybe if i spoke to one i'd feel differently. i don't know. scientific based information about the benefits of a raw diet would be comforting. is there something like that or is everything based on people's own experiences.

I've read about it here and of the yahoo group. so many people feed it, how can it be wrong or bad? i don't know.

as for your questions about Morgan, her tear ducts are clogged and their too small to flush. i've tried. She is on fish oil and vit E. her coat i think just is what it is. tho poofy, its very soft and people love it.

i had given her chicken necks in the past and she just doesn't get it. she's not a big chewer and just wouldn't try long enough to eat the neck. if she can't get it within a few minutes she gives up. lazy girl i tried holding it for her and smashing it up a little for make it easier to eat but it still didn't work.

i was mainly interested in the protein before because i was so confused as to why the protein of the raw food was so much less then the evo kibble and even the solid gold that she mainly eats.

thanks again. would love to hear from other people as well.
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Old 03-22-2008, 05:49 PM   #12
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Check the AHVMA (American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association) for holistic vets in your area. They're more likely to have info on raw diets (and nutrition in general) than any traditional vets out there..... http://www.ahvma.org/

I did a search for NJ vets, there's actually a nice list. Hopefully one is in your area, or at least close enough to make an afternoon road trip to visit.
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Old 03-22-2008, 06:03 PM   #13
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Check the AHVMA (American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association) for holistic vets in your area. They're more likely to have info on raw diets (and nutrition in general) than any traditional vets out there..... http://www.ahvma.org/

I did a search for NJ vets, there's actually a nice list. Hopefully one is in your area, or at least close enough to make an afternoon road trip to visit.
thank you so much. i was actually just doing a google search for this. i was on the avma site and couldn't find what i was looking for.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:38 PM   #14
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Thank you very much for that link! I fed raw and my vet was skeptical of it.. Theres a vet on that list 30 minutes away from me.. I'm going to give her a call up and chit chat the raw thing.. If I could get my girls on it, I think I'm going to switch... I had my American Bulldog/Pitbull on it and it did wonders...
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Old 03-23-2008, 04:47 AM   #15
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so i used to feed morgan NV raw. she loved it. however it didn't do anything for her like it does for others. her mouth still stank, her teeth didn't get any whiter and her tear stains were still bad. and nothing can help her poofy coat.

so i did an experiment and put her back on kibble. She is eating solid gold wee bits right now which she likes more then other kibble i had her on pre-raw food. I like the convenience of kibble but hate the poop size and pick up.

so i went to a holistic pet store and asked if they have any kibble that will provide almost the said poop results as raw. They told me to try Evo. I told them that when morgan was younger i had tried her on this and a few mornings out of the week she would vomit bile. So i stopped feeding it. It could have been that she was too young to eat it though so i took a sample and tried it out. things seemed to be going well on day and two, but then on morning three she vomited bile, which she hasn't done in a while. So i figured it was the EVO and stopped mixing it with her solid gold.

EVO red meat has 42% protein.
NV venison has says it has 13% protein.

I never looked at this before but just assumed the raw would be higher in protein. Its not. In fact it has less protein then solid gold kibble she's eating now.

so maybe i'm missing something. i have been a little off lately. Maybe someone can explain this to me. How is it that some people who are against raw say its too high in protein when in fact its not? is it just the possible bacteria that worries people then?
I've heard the taste of the wild was so good too..Well, my big dogs are doing great on it and seem to really like it..the 4 little ones ended up with diarrhea all day everyday, so hurried and took them off of it..they're now back on nutro ultra, and it tends to make them poop less and it's smaller also, and they really like it...good luck
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