First raw meal! Is raw meat all she gets now?

[Franceen]

Hi everyone

I have been giving my Tootsy's diet a great deal of thought and had lots of useful info. on homefeeding and commercial foods etc. from people on this forum. I started home feeding and Tootsy really benefited from it. I have been reading all the threads about raw feeding and looking at recommended sites for more information about it. Well, I was preparing Tootsy's meals today and a piece of meat fell onto the floor and she ate it with relish and begged for more! I decided then and there to try the raw feeding. She LOVED her first meal - you'd think that I had given her a bowl of liver treats! I decided to add some organic frozen mixed veg to the raw meat to bulk it out. I put them in the blender and added them to the raw meat. She ate that with relish as well! But, I have read on some sites that you should just give them the raw meat/chicken/fish etc and nothing else! Does anyone here do that or do you add veg & fruit?

I gave her just over a quarter of a pound of beef today - is this enough? Should I just give her meat and nothing else or should I carry on with the cup of frozen veg added to it? She has been very hungry of late and eating like she's been condemned! I decided I had better weigh her today and was shocked to fine that she now weighs 10lbs 5 ozs(?!!). She used to weigh 8lbs. She needs to get those pounds off and I wondered if anyone could give me some help with working out the size of portions I should give her!

I have some organic chicken thighs in the freezer and I was thinking of giving her one of those, raw, tomorrow without the skin and with the bones in - is this okay? As a daily diet, I was also thinking of giving her, say, a chicken thigh in the morning and yogurt/cottage cheese with apple sauce for lunch and then beef and veg for dinner. Is this too much food? Do I still add some Missing Link to her food and some calcium? She is not fond of lamb but does like fish, so I could exchange one of the meat meals for fish. Can I use frozen fish fillets and just defrost them and give some to her; or should I buy fresh fish from the fish shop and give some to her, gutted and boned but leaving the scales and skin on (Yuk,Yuk,Yuk!!)? I have heard that raw feeders do this.

I would be so grateful for some advice on this new diet as I feel so nervous about this radical change of diet and worry that I could upset her tummy, make her ill (or even plumper)!!!

Luv

Franceen xx

[Ellie May]

First, I do not feed raw, hopefully will never have to and I don't agree with the practice. This is because of bone obstructions and bacteria that raw meat contains that weak immune systems may not handle. I reserve the right to be wrong though. It is important that you are comfortable with what you feed your dog. If you want to feed raw that is your choice... That's my disclaimer.

That being said, I do know a few things about feeding raw.
There are three ways (that I can think of) that you can feed.

1. Feed a prepackaged raw that is already balanced like Nature's Variety.
2. Feed a home cooked diet with supplements and just don't cook the meat.
3. Feed a prey model diet (this is what you are wanting to do, I think?).

Prey model diets need to be balanced with the proper amount of muscle and organ meat. This takes a lot of research.

There are some meats that should be at least lightly cooked.
So I would not be giving any meat with bone and big chunks of raw beef until you have researched it all...

[dabrat76]

Ok, let me preface this by saying I am by no means an expert. Abbie's Mom and Lara know far more than I do, but here's my 2 cents...

If you're looking to feed prey model raw (I do) then veggies and fruits aren't necessary, and some feel do more harm than good. I have given SoCo a couple pieces of veggies as a treat while cutting them up for me once but other than that, he gets just meat.

A typical meal (of late) is a chicken or turkey wing, leg or part of a breast (all with the bone), chicken gizzards and/or hearts, pork (no bone) and pork heart. I believe that the portion size is supposed to be 2-3% of their body weight, but I let him eat until he's done, which after the cat has some (no, he's not fed raw but he loves it) is 95% (or more) of what we put out for him. Sometimes we end up leaving something out for quite a while (everything must be room temp or warmer except for gizzards for my stubborn little monkey) and he just doesn't eat. As Abbie's Mom has said, she feeds to condition (I think that's the term) which just basically means they eat until their full after a while and self regulate.

When he gets anything that has skin and bone, he gets the skin and the bone, or at least, whatever skin is left after the cat has attacked it. Also, I'd watch the amount of beef as it's quite rich and has been known to cause "cannon butt" - I've experienced THAT first hand, not fun. The pork does too to a certain extent, but not as bad as the beef. If he gets something with no bone, I try to make sure he gets bone in the next one to balance out the stool situation.

I haven't started feeding fish yet (still not 100% clear on the bone part, and as I don't eat fish myself I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject in general) but I'm slowly starting to read more and more about it to perhaps move into fish eventually.

As you're in the U.K. and tripe is far more common there (ewww) than in North America, you should try and source some green tripe. It's supposed to be fantastic for our pups. I haven't tried to source it yet, but I expect it to be extremely difficult to find where I am and frankly SoCo is doing great without it... lol One thing I have to try harder to do is feed the organ meat. He won't touch kidney but LOVES liver, but holy cannon butt batman!

Anyway, sorry for the novel. I highly suggest reading the 36 page thread that's still going on, there's fantastic info in there... http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=101885

Tara

[Franceen]

Hi Ellie May and tara

Gee, I didn't realise that I had to have a balance or muscle and organ meat. Yet another concern. I am so nervous already about feeding raw but want to do the best for my dog. I had a friend around yesterday and was just about to give Tootsy a raw piece of chicken and my friend nearly freaked out! She felt I was risking Tootsy's health unnecessarily. In the end I cooked the chicken!

Today Tootsy is not feeling well. Her tummy is fine - no 'cannon butt'! - but she is just wanting to sleep. She didn't want to go for her walk today which is very unusual. Of course, I am now blaming myself for giving her the raw beef! She is also constantly licking her butt. Is this due to worms? I have ordered some worm medication which should arrive soon. She has been extremely hungry and I have been told that this may be the result of worm infestation.

Thanks so much for all the info you gave me, tara, and I agree with your 'EWWW!' when it comes to tripe. I cannot BEAR it or the smell.

I have to admit that I am feeling put off the raw diet at the moment. I will go through the posts on the link you gave me, tara, and see how I feel.

Luv

Franceen xx

[dabrat76]

Hi Franceen,

I will admit it's daunting. I've been feeding raw for almost 3 months now, but I've been aware of the concept for nearly 6 years and was too chicken to do it. However, we lost a 5.5 year old sharpei and a not quite 4 year old keeshond within a month of each other this past fall. Between losing the two we got SoCo. When the sharpei died so quickly on the heels of the kees, both of kidney failure, I decided that was it, I was going raw.

The vet (idiot) said it might be the food (their food was never recalled), or something they got into. I KNOW they didn't get into anti-freeze (we are BEYOND careful when it's out) and I frankly suspect that it's a coincidence that they died of the same cause. But just in case I knew that I couldn't go back to the kibble, which SoCo didn't even seem to really like. (We had to hand feed him most of the time)

I've had good friends, close family and strangers all tell me that raw food is bad for my dog. Well, I don't care. I've done the research, you haven't. It's my dog, not yours. If you don't like it, leave the room, or my house. I REFUSE to let anyone tell me what to do with my pets. And so should you. If you feel that raw, kibble or homecooking is the way to go, THAT'S YOUR CHOICE.

As for balancing the muscle and organs, it's not 50-50. They actually don't need nearly as much organ meat as muscle. And I just figured out (duh) that the gizzards are considered organ meat. So he's been getting plenty. It's not an exact science. If you're unsure, test. None of it (barring cooked bones or wreck bones) is going to kill Tootsy, and you already know she doesn't have an upset tummy from beef which is a great sign! Alot of feeding raw is personal choices. Some gives eggs and fish, some don't... it's all about what you and your pup are comfy with.

If I could make a suggestion, start with 1 meat for a week or 2 and then introduce another one, and so on. And as for Tootsy sleeping, I've read that can be quite normal when switching to raw. They kind of go through detox, getting all the kibble junk out of their system. Some have extra energy, it all depends on the dog. I did a quick search on butt licking and it can definitely come from dogs having worms, it can also be allergies, anal sacs needing to be expressed, a lot of things actually. If you know she has worms, I'd bet that's where the licking and the hunger comes from. What did your vet say?

Apart from the other thread, this website is great for helping to put your mind at ease, I've read through most, if not all, of it. http://rawfed.com/myths/

I hope that helps, and if you have questions, please feel free to ask them, if you're curious, someone else probably is too I hope you feel a little more reassured about raw feeding... it's scary at first, but you will get the hang of it eventually. And heck, even feeding the "wrong" thing is better than kibble IMHO.

Tara

[omega]

Originally Posted by dabrat76

Hi Franceen,

I will admit it's daunting. I've been feeding raw for almost 3 months now, but I've been aware of the concept for nearly 6 years and was too chicken to do it. However, we lost a 5.5 year old sharpei and a not quite 4 year old keeshond within a month of each other this past fall. Between losing the two we got SoCo. When the sharpei died so quickly on the heels of the kees, both of kidney failure, I decided that was it, I was going raw.

The vet (idiot) said it might be the food (their food was never recalled), or something they got into. I KNOW they didn't get into anti-freeze (we are BEYOND careful when it's out) and I frankly suspect that it's a coincidence that they died of the same cause. But just in case I knew that I couldn't go back to the kibble, which SoCo didn't even seem to really like. (We had to hand feed him most of the time)

I've had good friends, close family and strangers all tell me that raw food is bad for my dog. Well, I don't care. I've done the research, you haven't. It's my dog, not yours. If you don't like it, leave the room, or my house. I REFUSE to let anyone tell me what to do with my pets. And so should you. If you feel that raw, kibble or homecooking is the way to go, THAT'S YOUR CHOICE.

As for balancing the muscle and organs, it's not 50-50. They actually don't need nearly as much organ meat as muscle. And I just figured out (duh) that the gizzards are considered organ meat. So he's been getting plenty. It's not an exact science. If you're unsure, test. None of it (barring cooked bones or wreck bones) is going to kill Tootsy, and you already know she doesn't have an upset tummy from beef which is a great sign! Alot of feeding raw is personal choices. Some gives eggs and fish, some don't... it's all about what you and your pup are comfy with.

If I could make a suggestion, start with 1 meat for a week or 2 and then introduce another one, and so on. And as for Tootsy sleeping, I've read that can be quite normal when switching to raw. They kind of go through detox, getting all the kibble junk out of their system. Some have extra energy, it all depends on the dog. I did a quick search on butt licking and it can definitely come from dogs having worms, it can also be allergies, anal sacs needing to be expressed, a lot of things actually. If you know she has worms, I'd bet that's where the licking and the hunger comes from. What did your vet say?

Apart from the other thread, this website is great for helping to put your mind at ease, I've read through most, if not all, of it. http://rawfed.com/myths/

I hope that helps, and if you have questions, please feel free to ask them, if you're curious, someone else probably is too I hope you feel a little more reassured about raw feeding... it's scary at first, but you will get the hang of it eventually. And heck, even feeding the "wrong" thing is better than kibble IMHO.

Tara

Also on www.rawfed.com there is lots of info about feeding raw. I feed my dogs the prey model and they are doing great. It's really fun to see them eat using their whole body and really giving their teeth and jaws the work out it needs. I will never switch back unless absolutely necessary.

[abbie's mom]

Abbie's Mom and Lara know far more than I do,

Thanks Tara, for your vote of confidence ; but, you're doing great!

Speaking of Lara...where is that girl?

As Abbie's Mom has said, she feeds to condition (I think that's the term) which just basically means they eat until their full after a while and self regulate.

Yes, that is correct; however, I must revise my theory just a tad. LOL I still believe in feeding growing puppies to fill. They are growing and need all the nutrients a prey model diet supplies. I am (after five years) still learning, too, and Abigail has taught me that once adult size has been reached, it IS possible for them to put on added weight. Others on the RAWfeeding egroup have made this observation, too. I just had to see it for myself. So, I just watch her skin/fat intake, and add more exercise - no biggie. I'm still not convinced she's overweight as much as the vet is. She looks good for her frame, just getting a tad paunchy in her waistline. I can still feel her ribs.

And as for Tootsy sleeping, I've read that can be quite normal when switching to raw. They kind of go through detox, getting all the kibble junk out of their system. Some have extra energy, it all depends on the dog.

..........Right .

Hi Franceen

Originally Posted by Franceen

Gee, I didn't realise that I had to have a balance or muscle and organ meat. Yet another concern.

As Tara already said, organs are a small part of prey model, as is bone. This really isn't as hard as we make it at first. The basic ingredient for prey model is MEAT, with some organs and bone. It does not have to be a measured, worried-over formula.

I am so nervous already about feeding raw but want to do the best for my dog

.We know, and fully understand how scary this is. I was terrified when I first started; but switching to prey model saved my Mozart's life. This, I know.

I had a friend around yesterday and was just about to give Tootsy a raw piece of chicken and my friend nearly freaked out! She felt I was risking Tootsy's health unnecessarily. In the end I cooked the chicken!

Yep....and, we've all been there, with well-meaning friends/family. If you're going to succeed in this, you do need to make a decision to stick to it, regardless of outside opinions. As you're already seeing, there are too many opportunities to blame every little thing on the diet, without outside influence: Sleeping too much - "that diet". Cannonbutt: "that darned diet!" Sneezing: "yep...that diet!"[quote] Many people on YT feed a home-cooked diet, and seem pleased with it. I fed Mozart home-cooked, too, for awhile. But, it did not fix his digestive problem, that I'd so desperately hoped it would. Also, cooking kills all nutrients for your pet. Your dog's system is designed to extract nutrients from RAW MEAT, and cooking it just makes it work harder.

Today Tootsy is not feeling well. Her tummy is fine - no 'cannon butt'! - but she is just wanting to sleep. She didn't want to go for her walk today which is very unusual. Of course, I am now blaming myself for giving her the raw beef!

How much fat was in the ground beef? Best to give solid meats (exercise); but, if feeding ground, it should be LEAN, so as to avoid cannon butt. I do feed lean ground round, but only to mix with green tripe. That's what Abigail is getting this morning, and is now bugging me to get off the computer and get it to her. She smelled it!

She has been extremely hungry and I have been told that this may be the result of worm infestation.

Sure...worms are possible. Some folks (myself, included) avoid further damage to their pets by avoiding chemicals. FOOD grade DE is used by many to keep pets pest-free. That's a whole 'nuther conversation, we can pursue if you'd like. Anyway, if she appears "extremely hungry", this may not be the result of worms; but, just her natural reaction to actually getting real food. This is a very common reaction for the first few weeks. Once she realizes this is not a dream, and will continue to get real food...she will slow down, and self-regulate.

I have to admit that I am feeling put off the raw diet at the moment.

Quite understandable. But, I do hope you give this a fair trail before giving up, entirely. It's difficult to go against the popular concensus on something that we've been told by the 'experts' (vets, commercial food industry) is right. It may help to remember that kibble has only been around for the past 50 years or so.

I hope this all makes sense, and no errors - I don't have time to review, as Abigail is getting very adamant about her tripe!

[Franceen]

Hi abbie's mom,

Thanks SO much for all your advice and reassurance. It's much appreciated.

I gave Tootsy the worming medication and there is no sign of any worms in her poop, so this is not the cause of her itchy butt. I tried to feel her anal glands (she was outraged and gave me a 'do you MIND!' look) but I couldn't feel any swollen glands in that area. I am a bit puzzled now. I may take her to the vet.

She seems to be doing okay at the moment - still sleeping more than usual but, as you say others have found this in the beginning of the raw diet, I won't worry too much. The beef I gave her was totally lean and I diced it into small cubes.

You are braver than me, buying the tripe! I bought some dried tripe chews for Tootsy and when I opened the packet I almost threw up!! Not only did they look revolting (sort of spikey in some parts??!!) but the smell! They went straight into the garbage can. I bought her some CET chews and Orozyme chews for her teeth. She buried them both and has shown no further interest in them. I had also bought her 'Coachies', 'Thrive' real beef treats and 'It's me or the Dog' 100% natural baked treats. She didn't even bother to bury any of these - just sniffed them, gave me 'I'm NOT eating that' look and walked off with her little nose in the air! I bought her some liver treats and she actually loves them! (Yes, I am quickly going bankrupt) Now I am feeding raw, I don't have to worry about treats, do I? Meaty bones take their place?

Thanks again.

Luv

Franceen xx

[abbie's mom]

Originally Posted by Franceen

Thanks SO much for all your advice and reassurance. It's much appreciated.

You're most welcome . We're getting quite a group of prey model feeders here on YT, so there should be someone always available to hold your hand, or answer questions. Then, one day, you'll look up and find you are doing the hand-holding .

I am a bit puzzled now. I may take her to the vet.

Do what you need to do. You'll be tempted to tell him/her that you've just started prey model feeding, but I would advise against that, just now - unless you're looking for more ammunition to shoot this whole thing in the foot before it gets a running start. Most vets are adamantly against RAW/prey model feeding. There are some who are coming around to our way of thinking, because they've seen dogs in their practice who have fewer overall problems. You can't argue with success staring you in the face . If you take her to the vet, let the vet make his/her diagnosis based on his/her knowledge and what s/he sees from the dog. IF s/he asks if there have been changes in her diet, of course tell the truth. But, don't be surprised by a knee-jerk reaction, blaming the diet: Itchy butt: "that darned diet!"

You are braver than me, buying the tripe! I bought some dried tripe chews for Tootsy and when I opened the packet I almost threw up!! Not only did they look revolting (sort of spikey in some parts??!!) but the smell! They went straight into the garbage can.

Revolting, to be sure! The proprietor of the first RAW store I found, said her hubby absolutely forbade her from bringing into the house before it was processed. She had to do it outside, then bag it up to bring in the house. The smell is beyond words - and Miss Abigail LOVES it! LOL But, my Mozart won't touch it. The only reason I buy it is for the probiotic enzyme action.

I bought her some liver treats and she actually loves them! (Yes, I am quickly going bankrupt) Now I am feeding raw, I don't have to worry about treats, do I? Meaty bones take their place?

Treats are nothing to worry about, either way. Some feed 'em, some don't bother. I feed them rarely. But, be careful of liver - less is best, as it will result in cannon bum Not saying don't feed it at all, just watch the portion, and how often. Bones are not to be considered taking the place of treats. Bone, though a small portion of this diet, is a necessary part, and should be fed regularly. Stear clear of Rec (wreck) bones - bones that come from weight-bearing parts of the animal, or too dense for smaller breeds.

[Franceen]

Thanks for this reply - I didn't know about not giving them weight bearing bones. Thanks for letting me know about this. I have found an online organic farm shop that do a bag of bones for dogs/stock and I was thinking of getting these and chopping them into smaller pieces. But, I won't know which bone is a weight bearing bone from the selection in the bag, I'm afraid. I will have to think of another way of getting the bones she needs. Would a lamb chop with the bone in (eg cutlet) be safe or an oxtail chopped into smaller pieces? ( She loves it when we have roast leg of lamb as she gets the bone with some meat on it. Keeps her busy for hours. Now that it has to be raw, I shouldn't give it to her, should I? Perhaps the odd time we have it, doesn't matter?) If you could give me any ideas for bones that I could easily get, I would be grateful. I was also thinking of a piece of beef brisket on the bone? I buy all my meat online from organic farm shops as there isn't an organic butcher in my town. This makes it more difficult as they have a set selection of cuts.

I agree that the vet will blame the diet, I will try and steer her away from this and ask her to check other possibilities. I know I have a battle on my hands with other people and the vet not agreeing with my raw food diet. Just have to weather the storm of protest until they see that my dog is doing well on it.

Thanks, abbie's mom

Luv

Franceen

[abbie's mom]

Originally Posted by Franceen

Thanks for this reply - I didn't know about not giving them weight bearing bones. Thanks for letting me know about this. I have found an online organic farm shop that do a bag of bones for dogs/stock and I was thinking of getting these and chopping them into smaller pieces. But, I won't know which bone is a weight bearing bone from the selection in the bag, I'm afraid.

Right. The density of weight-bearing bones is the concern. So, no matter how small the pieces, they'll still be teeth-wreckers.

I will have to think of another way of getting the bones she needs. Would a lamb chop with the bone in (eg cutlet) be safe or an oxtail chopped into smaller pieces? ( She loves it when we have roast leg of lamb as she gets the bone with some meat on it. Keeps her busy for hours. Now that it has to be raw, I shouldn't give it to her, should I? Perhaps the odd time we have it, doesn't matter?) If you could give me any ideas for bones that I could easily get, I would be grateful. I was also thinking of a piece of beef brisket on the bone? I buy all my meat online from organic farm shops as there isn't an organic butcher in my town. This makes it more difficult as they have a set selection of cuts.

ANY cooked bone is hazardous. The fact that she hasn't had a problem so far, does not guarantee that she won't have serious complications at some point. And, IF that happens, of course we know what will happen: "That dang RAW diet!" Your pup's system is designed to digest RAW bones - but cooked bones splinter. RAW Chicken bones are a good start. They are soft, and smaller breeds seem to handle them well. Honestly, mine don't do well on lamb, but you could try a lamb chop. Also, rabbit bones are small enough for her. Quail is another option.

I agree that the vet will blame the diet, I will try and steer her away from this and ask her to check other possibilities. I know I have a battle on my hands with other people and the vet not agreeing with my raw food diet. Just have to weather the storm of protest until they see that my dog is doing well on it.

How was the vet visit?

[Franceen]

Thanks again for the help, abbie's mom. I will see how she goes with the chicken bones.

I haven't taken her to the vet yet, but I hope to get an appointment soon. It is not urgent and they are very busy, so I will fit in with them. Today I noticed a little mucus in her poop again, so something is not right. She will eat anything that she finds on her walk and the little imp swallows it quickly, if you try to take it away from her! I am tempted to put a muzzle on her when I take her for a walk!! Imagine the reaction of the other dog walkers! She is just SO determined to eat whatever she picks up. She clamps her teeth shut with the grip of an alligator and I cannot prize her jaw open no matter how hard I try. It doesn't help that she wriggles like crazy. If she feels she is losing the battle, she just swallows it. What a strong, determined little character this little madam has got!

I'll let you know what the vet says, once I have taken Tootsy to see her.

Luv

Franceen

[golddusty]

Hi everyone:

I started feeding my dog raw food early January and he absolutely loves it. He's 2 yrs old and has always been a picky eater. He would not eat anything in the mornings. I buy the pre-packaged natures variety medallions. The recommended feeding for his weight is 1.5 in the morning & 1.5 in the evenings. I started with beef in then introduced rabbit. He is rapidly gaining weight & I'm concerned that he's going to get fat so I cut his meal portions to 1 medallion in the morning & 1 in the evening. At around 9:00 pm he eats his kibble!!! (still hungry)

What do I do?

[abbie's mom]

Originally Posted by golddusty

At around 9:00 pm he eats his kibble!!! (still hungry)

What do I do?

Throw out the kibble.

[golddusty]

Abby's mom:

If he's still hungry?