Positive (Clicker and luring) training VS Cesar Milan training

[NIKITA & LILO]

I started trainig classes with Lilo about 2 weeks ago. The trainer is highly recommended and she seems like she loves to train dogs (www.positivek9training.com. I don't have a problem with her, but with the training itself.
I found Positive Training metod, a little non-convincing to me.
It's based on rewarding only the good behavior with a lot of treats.
But what about repremending your dog when it does something wrong???
I'm right now in senior puppies class, so maybe I just have to wait to see if anythign will change over next few weeks,
I really want to put Lilo next in the classes based on Cesars kind of training, so this way I can compare both training methods and figure out which will work better for us.
What kind of training metod do you prefer and recommend.???

[Safire]

Sorry but I'm not familiar with what the Cesar way is. Can you explain?

I have Tetley in positive reinforcement training (clicker) and I've had nothing but success. Of course there always has to be a bit of reprimand too, but I think the point is to not *physically* reprimand - voice commands should be sufficient to curb bad behavior.

[Lopsi]

Before I knew how to train Pixie, we reprimanded all bad behavior... and she wasn't learning a thing. (Note - we didn't beat her, just a couple occassional swats and lots of "Bad Girl!")

She wasn't getting anything - including potty training. Then we started training, and I learned about the positive reinforcement way. My husband and I battled on it for a while before he finally gave up and said, "Look, I don't agree with what you're choosing to do, but I'll stay out of it. You just do what you feel like you want to." He had the same problems - if I did that, I wouldn't be teaching her what NOT to do and she wouldn't be reprimanded at all. But I took that as my OK to jump on the positive methods.

Seriously, within 2 weeks, we didn't have any more accidents other than the occasional "no one's home and I gotta go" kind of thing. My husband is shocked, but it's made a believer out of him... and me too. I didn't really believe in it when I started, but she was 7 months old when we started and not making any progress. I figured it was time to try SOMETHING else. I'm a believer now.

I don't know how it works really other than that you teach them what TO do, so they avoid the bad behaviors. The other way around, you're only teaching them to HIDE their bad behaviors from you such as pooping behind the sofa and peeing under the table.

That's my input. I'm all for the positive methods now. So is my husband.

[Gypsy & Me]

We're doing positive reinforcement over here too... all the doggy tv programs are using it too...

[NIKITA & LILO]

Thank You for all your input. I'll definitelly finish this training sesion ( another 6 weeks) and see how much improvement it will cause.
I did teach Lilo most of the things on my own, before I decided to start professional training, maybe I'm just stubborn, and think that it will be " my way or highway" LOL.
I'll go with the flow and time will show, but for now, it's hardcore training sessions for Lilo.

[Erin]

Clicker training works.

The experts (as in, the people with PhD's in the field) think Cesar is setting dog training back 20 years. His way may look sensational, but it's not a good way to train your dog. It's a terrible way to have a relationship with your dog.

People comment on how Loki is one of the best trained dogs they know. (He's not, but he's better than most.) Our trainer uses ALL positive reinforcement. I've seen her teach her dogs something entirely new in a few minutes. I'm not that talented but I can teach Loki a new trick or behavior easily. I taught him to press a Staples Easy Button in an afternoon.

It's not just for tricks either. It works for potty training, manners, loose leash walking and more. Your trainer should discuss things like setting rules and boundaries. At our house the dogs sit for their treats and their dinner and before I throw their toys. Sammy is still learning but Loki goes to his crate when I say "crate" even if I'm 3 rooms away and sits there and waits for his treat. Best of all, it's fun.

[lilstar63100]

As a petsmart dog trainer... all of our training is positive reinforcment. and as long as the pet parents are WILLING to be consistent with their dogs it works great... its the negetive ones that say it wont work that their dogs dont get it. i can make any dog perform the right trick with positive reinforcement. Pebbles learned to sit, lay down, shake, roll over, and leave it, all within an hour with posotive reinfocments and voice commands when she didnt do it right.


theres a big difference between ceaser milan and regular basic obedience. ceasar isnt working on learning basic commands... hes working on helping dogs that have gotten so out of control there is no hope for them anymore.

[Bdmcs324]

Originally Posted by lilstar63100

As a petsmart dog trainer... all of our training is positive reinforcment. and as long as the pet parents are WILLING to be consistent with their dogs it works great... its the negetive ones that say it wont work that their dogs dont get it. i can make any dog perform the right trick with positive reinforcement. Pebbles learned to sit, lay down, shake, roll over, and leave it, all within an hour with posotive reinfocments and voice commands when she didnt do it right.


theres a big difference between ceaser milan and regular basic obedience. ceasar isnt working on learning basic commands... hes working on helping dogs that have gotten so out of control there is no hope for them anymore.

Exactly right about Ceasar Milan .. he isnt trying to teach the dog to sit and roll over .. he is rehabilitating the dog. And I think he forms good relationships with the owner and the dog because the owner needs to be the "pack leader" or else the dog will never listen to them.

[PANAMA69]

I have watch the show and Cesar stated that he is not a dog trainer tha he use dog psychology, "that he rehabilitates dogs and trains people", and he also said that is two diferent things.

[FirstYorkie]

Clicker training, definitely!

When you make it clear to your dog what you want him to do and you make it rewarding enough for him to do it, he will almost always choose to do what you ask. Why punish a dog when you can get him to do what you want using reward-based methods?

In almost every situation, you can ask for an alternate, incompatible behavior. Sometimes we can't see it and we have to ask others what that other behavior could be, but it's there.

Remember: Behavior that is reinforced increases in frequency!

[bornnygurl]

Arg, when will I even learn? Going against what I said I wasn't going to do and stating this:

I think liking only clicker training for training ALL dogs is just as bad as liking rewarding positive/correcting negative for training ALL dogs as well. The preceding statment is based on my experience with training dogs with all kinds of personalities and behavioral problems. What works for the goose doesn't always work for the gander (or something like that). I also wanted to say that it is unfortunate that Cesar is getting all the credit for training methods that have been in place for many, many years by other trainers and behavioral specialist before.

[Sweetums]

I suggest reading "Don't Shoot The Dog" by a very renowned animal trainer who has trained all kinds of animals (all mammals will learn by the same methods) for all kinds of endeavors including t.v. She is one of the original clicker researchers and has had great success with positive reinforcement. The problem with most people is that they don't understand there is more to it than just learning to give your dog rewards. It has to be timed a certain way. Not that it's difficult to pick up at all, it's just a matter of learning that there are certain refinements to it if you want it to succeed. She also addresses negative reinforcement in her book and says that negative reinforcement has some success but not as much as positive reinforcement and it depends on what you use it for, which she elucidates on. Also positive and negative reinforcement can be used in conjunction with each other, they are not mutually exclusive. She states that all the researchers who worked with her on positive reinforcement training had the best behaved children she'd ever seen as they used the same techniques with them.

It's a fabulous book and will give you a much better understanding of how to train your pet than just taking lessons, altho I recommend the lessons because they offer practical hands-on instruction.

[lolabella]

Here is the Wikipedia page on Millan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan

And here is what his critics say according to this page:

There are professional trainers, behavior consultants and behaviourists that state that Millan's methods are inhumane, referring to the use of alpha rolls, flooding, and constant leash "corrections". According to them these techniques can have serious behavioral consequences. While critics agree that Millan does not hit or physically injure the dogs he is working with, they state that subjecting a dog to these techniques is inhumane treatment.
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University, has said ?Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways.? [15] In a February 23, 2006 New York Times article Dr. Dodman says of Millan?s show "My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years." [4]
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA Director of Academy for Dog Trainersstates, ?Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ?whispering? for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.? [16]
Dr. Ian Dunbar, Director of the Center for Applied Animal Behavior in Berkeley says "He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well ... different," says Dunbar. "Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods, because a lot of what he does is not without danger." [17]
Dr. Andrew Luescher, Veterinary Behaviorist for the Animal Behavior Clinic at Purdue University says ?Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.? [18]
On September 6, 2006, The American Humane Association issued a press release condemning Millan's tactics as "inhumane, outdated, and improper" and called on The National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately. [19]
Also in the month of October 2006, The Alaska SPCA refused to sponsor a dog rescue benefit by one of Millan?s trainers, stating "We just don't align ourselves with the Dog Whisperer's methods?. [20]


That's a lot of criticism from a lot of credible people and organizations.

[yorkiegirl83]

I love Cesar Milan and no matter what anyone says about him negatively.. I think he does a lot of good work w/the dogs he helps.

Now that being said, I've read his books and he says that positive training is a GREAT option for dogs w/o behavioral issues.

I've used some Cesar methods after talking them over w/a behavioralist, but have found that what works best for me is a mix of calm assertive energy and positive reinforecement =).

Rewarding your dog makes them learn what's right a whole lot quicker than learning what is wrong and I think it's a win win for dogs and their humans

[FirstYorkie]

Originally Posted by Sweetums

I suggest reading "Don't Shoot The Dog" by a very renowned animal trainer who has trained all kinds of animals...

I second the suggestion. It is a very good book.