Newborn Yorkie w/ Questionable Vet Input

[Rivers]

My female Yorkie had her first puppy 7 days ago via cesarean section. The puppy did not initially nurse. We finally got him to nurse a day after birth. I was supplementing him with a bottle. The pup never fully took off and by last Friday he seemed to be fading a bit. I went to the vet, to whom I am not close, and the puppy had gone from his birth weight of 111 grams to 98 grams. I brought him in because I believed him to be dehydrated and in needed of subcutaneous fluids. The vet said he was very weak and strongly encouraged me to allow her staff member to care for him for the day. They called me that evening and said he needed more nursing and would probably never go back on the mother. I do not know the vet well and she used some pretty strong words on my pups condition. I felt pressured into allowing this staff member to nurse him over the weekend but, since I had seen the pup fade so quickly, let them take him, despite the fact that I had only come in to get fluids to inject myself. Now (on Monday) he is back up in weight but the vet says he is not staying hydrated and needs subcutaneous fluids hourly.

The vet said she is worried about his kidneys and was so fragile that they were afraid he would die were I to tend to him. They seemed quite sure that the staff member was the only person who could help him. Then, they actually asked me to sign the puppy over to them and told me if I kept him he would wind up dead and if I bought him back in they would not be able to do anything.

There were many fishy comments made over the course of the last week. For example, when the vet called to say the mom was ready for pick up the next morning after the cesarean she told me that a staff member had offered to foster the puppy. I expressed to her that that was not something I had even considered. It seemed super strange. They kept asking me to let the assistant take the dog permanently. Who ever heard of a vet’s office doing such a thing?

I was also getting a bit wary of the vet's many errors of fact - I knew there was only one puppy by palpation, Yorkies mostly have litters under 4, yet the vet predicted 6 (there was one). When I first brought the pup in, I said he needed fluids, and they insisted that I was wrong, until well after they should have seen what was up (they eventually started fluids). So I was already sensitized when they asked me to sign the dog over. Then came the icing on the cake. They told me that I had to decide what more important: the puppy's life or my needs.

Not really being fond of emotional blackmail from my medical professionals, I left with the pup. My issue for the purposes of this forum is that, having felt for a while something was off with them, I now felt I couldn't trust them to be honest with me. When they gave me the risks, their track record was such that they could have been wrong, lying, or both. So, my puppy needs a second opinion with my soon to be new vet. However in the meantime I am interested in the knowledge of the experts: you guys.

Does puppy have a chance of going back on mom? After being off for 3 days, should I even try? The vet said my girl was licking him raw. How do I stop this? Since I first saw him at the vet’s his belly had been quiet distended. I tried to stop her from licking him too much after his feeding but then the pup pooped. He obviously needed the licking when I was abt to intervene. What is too much licking? His belly has gone down a ton! Evidently they were not pooping him enough as his belly was very round since I brought him home 2.5 hours ago until now. I have never had an overzealous licker. Any advice?

He is literally nursing from her right now. I am not sure after the long weekend how much milk she is still producing. Thoughts?

Does anyone have experience with pups that need 2cc’s of subcutaneous fluids every hour? I know that dehydration can cause renal issues however, which came first?

I am dedicated to this puppy and will bring him to a different vet tomorrow but I am not sure what of their statements to believe. My husband is an MD but also has a degree in Physiology. He is not sure of either as none of it makes sense.

Regardless, the vet made many comments that made me think she was not well educated on the Yorkie breed and their attitude lost them my trust. Any advice?

[Rivers]

I wrote this post last night. Today I plan to get a new vet. I read my story and it seems extremely odd and almost out of the Twilight Zone. As I have been up and down all night I ask myself repeatedly what I missed or how I presented myself. I have gone to this vet clinic for years. The owner seems to be sole proprieter and has had many many young vets circle through. None seem to even last 2 or 3 years. I had not met the particular vet until he night I brought my dog in for the c-section.

My pup did well all night. He several times went from one teat to the other deflating them. I did sumpliment with a bottle to top him off. I gave fluids also. A few times the skin may have tented for dehydration but not much. I am weighing him and i has gained maybe 2 to 3 grams but such a small amount maybe when I have weighed him.

On Friday when my puppy started fading the mom left him and he got a bit cold. I tried to get her to lay with him but she would move about a foot away lay down and whimper. To me she was indicating something was wrong. The vet's staff member said the mom rejected him. Since I have brought him home his mom has pretty much not left him. It's interesting because she seems to have accepted that I am helping both he and her.

My vet proposed a scenerio where he may need multiple sub-q fluid injections for the rest of his life. Has anyone ever heard of this being needed?

[Dayswalters]

I would definitely go to a different vet. I have never heard of a vet making these kinds of statements. You will feel better with a second opinion. It sounds like what you are doing will work until you see the new vet today.

[chickensmith]

The only experience even close to this I've have was with a kitten someone found in their bushes.....they didn't want to try to keep it so we nursed it at the office and I took it home at night.....it was a very looooong nursing period and after a few weeks we did find a home for her....but she was returned to us nearly dead...so we kept her at the office a while longer. I did wind up bringing her home with me permanently until we found her a home when he was old enough....all that being said it does sound very odd the things that happened at this vet....and I think you are completely justified in getting a second opinion....I can't wait to hear what they have to say! And I personally think that you are doing a great job at the moment....sounds like mama is inexperienced to say the least....but seems to have gotten the hang of it. Our own cat had one kitten in November and I had to help her at first because she just didn't have all the instincts yet....but once she caught on it was good. Sounds like this is what has happened with your girl.

[Yorkiemom1]

As long as the puppy is nursing, mom will produce milk and the amount will increase as the baby nurses. When you have a puppy that is walking a thin line like this one is, YOU need to have much more control on what is going on. I would suggest you immediately learn how to tube feed this puppy...there is a recipe for a formula that I have used on any of my babies that needed tube feedings....that formula gives you 14 - 16 calories/cc.....you feed 1cc/oz of body weight. You must weigh that baby at least twice a day, and monitor weight closely. Adjust your tube feedings accordingly...you WANT that baby to nurse if he will do so, so you have to balance tube feedings with the nursing....you dont want to fill him up so he is not hungry and does not need to nurse.....but you want him to be gaining weight. Even after you tube feed him, allow his momma to lick him....that is bonding with her baby. Have you ever had a newborn before or is this your first whelp? Keep that baby out of drafts....keep a heating pad on LOW, and I place my heating pads under the BOX that the babies and momma lay in....I do not want the possibility that a baby will come into direct contact with that heating pad....they will cook.....been there, done that. I also throw one of those heated throws, over the top of the crate momma and babies are in...the ambient temp inside that area should be around 85*, maybe a little more. With a husband that is a doctor, this is great! HE can teach you how to pass a feeding tube! Have him watch a video on YouTube and then he can teach you how to do it.....see one, do one, teach one! As long as the baby is gaining weight, and nursing, you may only need to tube feed 3x's a day....according to weight! Always tube feed FIRST, then allow the puppy to nurse in order to fill up.....that way, you wont overfeed and risk regurgitation/aspiration.
Good thing you are changing vets....

[ColesMommy01]

Can you give us an update on what the new vet says when able? Thank you, I hope all is well

[Rivers]

I do have experience but not a great deal. The main sickness I have dealt with in puppies is years ago I had two pups with liver shunts. That experience was terrible. The issue with those pups emerged after they started eating solid food. I did sub-q fluid injections with them also however they were older. This guy is 8 days old.

Good news! My scale has gone up 6 grams since I first weighed him last night. Albeit some of it may be food/fluids. It is an upward trajectory.

Thanks for all the advise. I spent the wee hours of the night watching YouTube of baby yorkie instructional videos. Some I knew and just wanted a refresher and other stuff I wanted to make sure I was doing is correctly.

I have an appointment with a vet for later this afternoon! I will post. Thank you everyone.

BTW he does not appear to be raw from the mom's licking.

[MauiGirl]

I have never heard of such input from a vet, it is more than questionable it is unprofessional and a little crazy.

Good you are seeing a new vet asap. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

[smartpuppiepets]

Originally Posted by Rivers

I do have experience but not a great deal. The main sickness I have dealt with in puppies is years ago I had two pups with liver shunts. That experience was terrible. The issue with those pups emerged after they started eating solid food. I did sub-q fluid injections with them also however they were older. This guy is 8 days old.

Good news! My scale has gone up 6 grams since I first weighed him last night. Albeit some of it may be food/fluids. It is an upward trajectory.

Thanks for all the advise. I spent the wee hours of the night watching YouTube of baby yorkie instructional videos. Some I knew and just wanted a refresher and other stuff I wanted to make sure I was doing is correctly.

I have an appointment with a vet for later this afternoon! I will post. Thank you everyone.

BTW he does not appear to be raw from the mom's licking.

It seems like you are doing right more than wrongs since 8 days you have a live puppy gaining weight. My assumption is that right after c-section mom was painful and still in shock from the event, they can over lick , abandon, cry , do weird things right after a c-section. It seems that now she is doing better and her instincts are working to puppy's favor too.
I agree with the advice it was given, to supplement, if not through tube feeding, using a dropper or a bottle but supplement until you are 100% sure he is feeding well, I would suggest milk the momma a bit to keep the flow of milk, but that can hurt since she had a c-section, you do not want to do that, but check her milk flow before and after puppy nursed each nipple.
And be confident that you are doing as much as you can and your best !
You are making well thought informed decisions and applying yourself to care for these 2 yorkies. We all hope for the good outcome and whatever happens, be confident that you are doing all humanly possible. As days go by and you get tired, do not allow the thoughts to steal your confidence.
Again... It seems that you are doing things right.
Xoxo

[Rivers]

I do not think I would believe this story if I had not lived it. Just the malice of ppl! Unreal! That vet and the vet hospital employee are seriously shady.

The new vet spent abt 45 minutes with mom, puppy and myself. I stopped giving sub-q fluids at abt 10AM as I could not see much tenting. We met the new vet at abt 2:15. My puppy has been pretty active and on his mom all day. My puppy was weighed at 130 grams. That is a 30 grams more than the other vet told me yesterday. (My new scale is off but that is another story). From 8PM March 3rd until 2:30PM March 10th there was a 29 gram gain with a day he got dehydrated.

He said to cease sub-q injections unless I saw actual dehydration because my puppy looked so healthy and vigorous with feeding. My mom is producing milk. He checked. He encouraged me to allow mom and pup to be natural unless I see distress.

My puppy does not look raw or excessively licked to mom. The vet said maybe she got a bit overzealous in licking following the c-section but he saw no evidence of it being a currently problem. He did state that a puppy not going back to mom is just an untruth on their part.

No way to know if the puppy has kidney problems without a blood panel and the vet thougt getting blood off a 130 gram puppy would not be the best at this time.

I can not stress enough how normal it all looked.

My puppy certainly got dehydrated on Friday and when I went to get saline from the vet I was subjected to a campaign of misinformation because someone wanted my puppy. He thought the vet offering to take the puppy shortly after birth to have it fostered by a staff member very odd.

My puppy's health was repeatedly misrepresented to me. His weight was misrepresented. His condition was misrepresented. There was a concerted effort to separate us from the puppy. I was told things like because I am less experienced than the staff member with sub-q I risked injuring, killing and drowning my puppy. Puppies are squirmy! Etc. I need to sit down and write a list of all their comments.

I am ticked. I am going to file a report with the state's vet licensing board. I have never done anything like this before. Does anyone have experience with filing against malpractice? I just feel taken advantage of in the extreme.

The new vet says he has not heard of a story like this but he has heard stories of vet offices performing c-sections on dogs like yorkies and claiming the litter consisted for 3 when in fact it consisted of 5 so they could keep 2 and profit from it. He was not referring to the particular shady vet in this episode.

Do you guys have advice on what I should do? The intent was malicious. I called the shady vet's office and asked for both yorkie's medical records. The person over the phone said there was nothing in the computer since last Friday and there were no handwritten notes by the doctor either. They usually have their files electronically done but the vet was behind. I actually saw paperwork when I was there but the staff has no idea where they would have been placed.

Okay I am steamed.

My pup appears to be doing well. I have no plans to abandon my close monitoring of his health. I plan to stay with them all night again. If I think he needs saline or milk I will be on it. I won't let him get weak.

Now I just need to fix my scale!

Thanks for reading my rant.

Also how small how small of a gain is 111 grams to 130 grams in 8 days with a dehydration event (and perhaps weight loss) in between? I realize it is not enough weight but is it normal considering the c-section and dehydration?

[OwnedByJezebel]

This is surreal. First there were 6 puppies and then there were one? How did the first vet come to the conclusion before whelping that there were six puppies? Ultrasound? X-ray? Palpation? Considering the story as a whole, I would be worried that there were other pups that you didn't get back after the c-section. And no records? If your suspicions are true, this can't be isolated, and there are bound to be others with complaints as well.

Question to breeders: I have read here that singletons can be larger than normal at birth. Is this always the case, because this one doesn't seem to be.

So glad that your momma and pup are doing well.

[Rivers]

My puppy's name is Simon.

Simon seems to be doing well. I am being a bit conservative with his hydration and gave him a small amount of fluids last night and again this morning. Not sure if his skin tented much but I thought maybe slightly more than normal.

He is REALLY eating off of his mom. He will fall asleep with her teat in his mouth and she will move and so does his entire body as he keeps his suction! He does not want to be disconnected!

A bit concerned about the weight. I am going to make up the recipe suggested here today. That is on my to do list however I have to wait for a dog sitter to arrive so I can go to the store. I am literally within 3 feet of these two 99% of the time.

I pulled out the x-rays last night and scrutinized them! I even looked for the very hint of a puppy hidden. She was never very big and I always suspected it was just one puppy. I have two views and did not see anything.

Turns out the vet in question graduated less than a year ago and has no license on the state's licensing board. She is probably operating under the hospital's license while hers is processed. Within the first minute of meeting her I was explaining the situation (I assume doctors want information in order to proceed...they are not mind readers) and I said I thought it was just 1 puppy because my dog was not large. That is when she said it was more than 1 and made the comment about how the average litter was 6. I did not argue with her. What did I care? My ego was not engaged however I immediately thought to myself 'oh this doctor does not like when ppl seek help with a knowledge base as it chafes them in some way'. I think the same thing happened when I came in and said Simon was dehydrated and needed sub-q fluids. If she has been out of school less than a year it is easy to see how she may not have the confidence brought by a vast wealth of experience.

I do feel violated and believe me I have spent hours going over the details in my mind and trying to find other scenarios and thinking about impressions I may have inadvertently conveyed. I REALLY can not come up with any other possibility. First off who has ever heard of a vet offering to get the puppy fostered when there was no indication I did not want him. I had even asked for pictures soon after birth which I did not receive.

[ColesMommy01]

Omg! That is just utterly ridiculous! Please file a report, review them on Yelp, etc. Had you ever been to that vet(the first one) before or is that your interaction? I would call them and speak with the vet myself and tell him what the new vet said.

[Yorkiemom1]

Very scary thing you are going thru.....why was the c-section done? Did you ever see your xrays done on your momma so YOU could have verified how many puppies momma was carrying? Good point about the singleton issue/question.....usually, singletons are larger because they are all in there by themselves with plenty of nourishment and room to grow!! I certainly would be taking this up with your State's licensing board! You need to sit down immediately and write down every issue that comes to mind that seems shady to you, before you forget anything. This place does not even sound like a vet office....sounds like a bunch of people renting an office space, collecting money any way they can from people with animals. I would REALLY be concerned about so much of what has been told to you by those people....beginning with the wildly incorrect guess about number of puppies being carried, to what determined mom needed a c-section in the first place? Did YOU have a history with this vet? Sounds like he was almost a stranger to you, and now the office staff with the sloppy record keeping and cant find records??? WOW!!! How long have you been going to this vet??? Good luck with your legal pursuit of validating this vet's professional status.

As far as the baby goes, sounds like this new vet has given you excellent advice. There is no need to supplement a puppy that is thriving! I would continue to contact the "?? vet" to have your dog's records sent to the new vet....including any xrays / US that were done before the pups were whelped. Keep a record/notes on the date and time and who you spoke with at the vet's office, requesting your records be forwarded to second vet, along with the excuse they gave you. That can be submitted to the Board to validate sloppy/inaccurate/untrue record keeping.

[Rivers]

I've used that vet office for years. It's been run by one vet the entire time yet all other vets just come and go. I know this however they are open until 8pm and you can get in quickly. The hospital facilities are nice.

My report is VERY detailed and almost written. I spoke with the state veterinary board office yesterday and they were very helpful in assisting me on the procedure for filing a complaint.

I have a call in to the owner of the hospital. Evidently he has been running this hospital for 14 or 15 years (I personally know of 14) and in January finally became owner. You'd think he would be less than thrilled his new hire who is probably working under his license would be so reckless.