Does anyone know anything about heart murmors - YorkieTalk.com Forums

wandakt · 12-12-2005, 07:36 PM

I rescued a little 10 month old yorkie last weekend and found out today that she has a level one or greater heart murmor. She has to be the cutest, sweetest thing ever and only 2.2 lbs. When I got her on Thursday she was scared of her shadow and acted like a dog that was kenneled most of her life. She has now joined our family and has bonded with both my husband and I and my other yorkies and now waits for us to pick her up. The party I got her from has told me that I can bring her back and get my money back but I think that would do her more harm than good. I am willing to spend whatever it will take to repair her heart if possible. I just don't know where to start and my vet wasn't much help. Does anyone have any advice. Thanks. Powder Puff's new mom.

Connie · 12-12-2005, 09:53 PM

Hello and bless your heart for rescuing little Powder Puff! She sounds so adorable! I don't have any experience with heart murmer, but wanted to wish you the best with her and I hope she can do well with this problem. I've done a search and have a few links you can check out, unless you already have seen them! One thing I learned when searching was that a level one heart murmur is the softest and it goes up to 6 being the worst. I am wondering why your vet didn't have much to say about it. Maybe you should get a second opinion? Best wishes to you and Powder Puff and welcome to YT! Here's some links:
http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-2518.html
http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/...onemurmur.html
http://www.vetinfo.com/dmurmur.html#...r%20in%20puppy
http://www.backcsc.com/heart.html

livingdustmops · 12-12-2005, 10:07 PM

I am a little confused on your saying you are rescuing this little girl but it sounds like you are buying her from someone. If you purchased her, did the seller tell you she had a heart problem? Is the person selling her giving you a health guarantee? I am also confused on your vet not being helpful, but is that because he hasn't seen the puppy? If your vet saw the puppy just exactly what did he say? I think Connie gave you some good website to start reading about this.

red98vett · 12-13-2005, 04:06 AM

My grandmothers little toy poodle was named Powder Puff too

....GOOD LUCK with your new baby and perhaps a 2nd opinion for her ? If you aren't happy with your vet it sounds like a good time to try another one....I LOVE my vet and couldn't imagine going to one I didn't respect or trust. It sounds like she has a mild Murmer but I sure would look into the signs of trouble and find out everything you can about it since she is SO tiny.

sylvan · 12-13-2005, 05:03 AM

I am familiar with aspects of/treatments for PDA (Patent Ductus Arteriosus). There are other causes of murmur, valve issues etc...You need to get an accurate diagnosis, PDA's are not uncommon and can be heard with a stethoscope. Dr Sleeper at UPenn is one of the tops in this field and may provide a referral to a specialist closer to you.

hasrv4fun · 12-13-2005, 05:10 AM

Get a second opinion or third or whatever till you find someone who knows about this condition.

It may not be anything to be upset about- My Spencer ( 6 yr old toy poodle ) has had a level one murmur also since I got him at 9 weeks and he is healthy , happy,,and active.

I am not saying to not to be concerned but get it checked by some one who knows !!!

whispersmom2 · 12-13-2005, 07:20 AM

You have had some good advice and as Sylvan said,, a teaching vet hospital is the best but even if getting to one is not possible for you, the baby still needs a more accurate diagnosis. If she is indeed a rescue, the rescue agency might help with her medical expenses. But, I think they would have told you about it when you took her, so maybe I mis-understand the status of the level of rescue she is..
Best of luck in her care..

SnowWa · 12-13-2005, 10:10 PM

I work in Cardiology. Heart murmurs are graded according to how loud they are. They are graded 1/6 through 6/6 with 6 being the loudest murmur and the grade 1 being the mildest murmur. My doctor told me that you can almost hear a grade 6 murmur across the room.

With people some heart murmurs are benign and harmless - others require treatment. (I have a murmur - and have always been told not to worry about it.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a great explanation about heart murmurs from a vet:

When it is possible, economically, for the owner of a puppy with a heart
murmur to have a cardiac ultrasound (echo) exam done, I think that is the best course of action. It is unquestionable that many murmurs that are present congenitally will never cause any problem during a dog's lifetime. However, it is also definitely true that some do. Ultrasound exam is the best way to evaluate heart murmurs because it gives a good idea of how much of the blood flow in the heart is being misdirected and also identifies readily
where the defect is that is allowing the blood flow to produce a murmur.

When it isn't possible for a pet owner to comfortably pay for cardiac
ultrasound exam, we do our best to evaluate the overall situation and
advise the owner based on clinical signs present. If a puppy is gaining
weight normally, is active and doesn't tire readily, has a normal red blood
cell count adjusted for his or her age and isn't showing any other signs of
heart disease, we advise just waiting to see what happens. If there are
definite clinical signs of heart disease, in addition to the murmur, we
push much more strongly for advanced testing.

Since cardiac ultrasound exam is by far the most effective method of
evaluating heart murmurs, I'd skip things like ECGs to get the ultrasound
exam, if a choice has to be made between tests.

Hope this helps some.

Mike Richards, DVM

PS: - If cardiac studies and workups for a dog are anywhere near what they cost for people - please be advised that if there is a serious problem, you may really not be able to afford the surgery.

I just read about Lance Armstrong's dog's heart surgery (valve surgery). It cost $10,000. but, money was no object for him.

If I paid $10,000 for surgery. I would also have to pay travel expenses to wherever they do it - and lose a lot of work time, etc., also.

I am hoping that your dog's murmur is not harmful and that he can live happily ever after with it.

Let us know what you learn!

Carol Jean

wandakt · 12-21-2005, 09:10 AM

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back but Powder Puff and I have been doing a little investigating ourselves and seeing another vet.

First of all, let me clarify the rescuing part. I actually paid for this little one. I did know that she had a problem but not a heart murmur. A well known kennel in Texas sent her to my area to find a good home. They advised me to take her to the vet. I took her to one of the vets that I use last Monday and he thought she has a level 4 heart murmur but was quick to explain that he really knows nothing about hearts. I called the lady I got her from and explained what I had found out. She offered to take her back but also gave me the number of the kennel who had her for the last 10 months of her life. I called the kennel and got all the pertinent information and was told that her vet had diagnosed her with a level one heart murmur. This dog was originally sold for $5000 but was replaced with a new puppy when the medical findings were known. Now first of all, I already have 6 yorkies and was not out looking for another one. Somehow mine and this little dogs paths crossed and my heart told me that I needed to do whatever was neccessary to help her. The kennel offered me a 2 year health guarantee stating that if the dog did not live past 2 years they would replace her or refund my money. I don't think anything is going to happen to her in 2 years but that was enough fuel for me to say that I needed to keep going with this.

Last Tuesday, I took her to another vet that was recommended to me. He has only been out of vet school for 2 years but his specialty was hearts. He told me that he felt she had a high level 1, level 2 heart murmur. He told me she would never be a candidate for heart surgery (mostly because of her size) but felt that she could live a fairly healthy life for 5, 6, maybe 10 years using various medications. He started her on Enalapril which is supposedly a mild blood pressure medicine. He will reevaluate her in a month and do blood work and hopefully the ultrasound. He said that through the years, the medication will have to be tweaked here and there but he thought I was the right one for the dog. I am willing to do whatever it takes for as long as I can. If they told me they could fix her heart for $10,000, I am sure I would try to find someway to do it.

I know I have only had her for 2 weeks but she seems to round out our household. My other little ones have accepted her and my husband and I have accepted her limitations (althought right now she seems to have none) and our responsibilities to her. Keep her in your prayers always. She is an angel and deserves to have as good a life as she is allowed to live here on earth and I will do my best to give her that.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

Wanda

kara · 12-21-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandakt

...........He started her on Enalapril which is supposedly a mild blood pressure medicine. He will reevaluate her in a month and do blood work and hopefully the ultrasound. He said that through the years, the medication will have to be tweaked here and there but he thought I was the right one for the dog. .......Wanda

Wanda-
I went through this with my cocker. My cocker Alex was on Enalapril for like 8 years. She lived to be 12 and died from an unrelated illness. Yes from time to time you will have to tweak the enalapril like increase the dose or decrease the dose and sometimes you will also have to use a low dose of a steroid (which is a dieretic(sp) in this case) because sometimes they can get a little fluid build up in their lungs. It is important to watch them to see if they cough because that means that there is fluid build up and if there is no coughing then there is no fluid. Every 6 months they go for the Vet to listen to their heart and lungs to make sure everything sounds ok. They can be a fairly normal dog with a normal life with only a few restrictions like I had to limit Alex's exposure to extreme heat and too much cardio activity like extended play times. It was also important to feed her a low sodium dog food and treats like Hills Science Diet Prescription Diet H/D (heart diet). I also gave her distilled water to drink because other water can have sodium in it. Otherwise she was perfect and no one would have ever known she had a heart murmur. Powder Puff will do great! Good luck to you and Powder Puff!

wandakt · 12-22-2005, 06:47 AM

Thanks Kara. I suspect this little one will live a long life. It is scary buying a dog with this, especially one as little as she is, but we are going to work through it. It is better than having the kennel put her down. Even if she just lives a few months here being able to have the run of the house and sleeping in a bed next to a live person and frolicing with the other dogs, it will be worth it. She is a real joy to our lives.

Merry Christmas.

Wanda

kara · 12-22-2005, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandakt

Thanks Kara. I suspect this little one will live a long life. It is scary buying a dog with this, especially one as little as she is, but we are going to work through it. It is better than having the kennel put her down. Even if she just lives a few months here being able to have the run of the house and sleeping in a bed next to a live person and frolicing with the other dogs, it will be worth it. She is a real joy to our lives.

Merry Christmas.

Wanda

Your welcome! If you ever have any questions or anything feel free to PM me and I can give you my private email.

LuvMy5Yorkies · 01-23-2006, 06:28 PM

I am carring for a puppy who is 7 months old, under 3 pounds that has this. She has had an ultrasound and is hopefully getting better. The vet did talk of her having to have heart surgery if it does not get better. She plays and acts fine. I think we are going to ask to keep her and get the operation if needed to close up the defect. We were told the cost is around $2,000 in our area. We have five yorkeis at the moment, but I'm going to let my good friend have one and our daughter will take another one later. This will leave only tinies for her to play with. My heart is hurting just reading about this. Now I understand what my good friend who's litter she is out of has been going through.

wandakt · 01-24-2006, 07:57 AM

I know how you are feeling but I think after a period of time it does get better and less scary for you. The first vet we saw told us this little 2.3 lb beauty had a level 4 heart murmor. Well that is pretty much certain death and in a pretty short time. I wasn't willing to stop there. I searched for a vet that specialized in hearts and was amazed at how wrong he thought the other vet was. His diagnosis was a high level 1. He told me that by giving her 1/2 tablet of enalapril for the rest of her life would probably give her a life expectancy of 5, 6, 8 maybe 10 years. He said that during that time we would have to tweak her medication and that she probably would have some congenital heart problems but even then it would not be as bad as I am thinking. She has been on it now for a month and is doing great. She had 15 teeth pulled last week and was spayed and the vet said you would never have known she had a heart problem. My vet did tell me that she would never be a candidate for heart surgery. He said that because of her size and the expertise in the field he just wouldn't recommend it. He knows that I would spend whatever it takes to make her right but he just doesn't think she would make it.

But you know what. I can live with 5 to 10 years. She is the smallest of our 7. Although, my biggest one is only 4 lbs and the rest are around 3 lbs. but she acts like a 7 lber. She fits right in with them and is way more playful than the whole bunch. I don't even think about her heart problem anymore. I'm just going to enjoy her like she is.

Many prayers to you and your little one. It sounds like she might have something a little different than a heart murmor but then maybe that is good if she can have the surgery and be fixed. I do know having the right vet is crucial and in your case it might be wise to get a second opinion. Maybe a diagnostic clinic. At any rate, keep me posted as to how things go or if you just need an ear to vent on.

Wanda

LuvMy5Yorkies · 01-24-2006, 02:40 PM

Thanks Wanda, I'm going to do my best to help this little doll. We have one of the best vests in this area. The last dog we had heart trouble with was our powder puff chinese crested. She was around 7 when she developed the "heart cough". Kendra was such a doll. She was on meds and it helped her for a year, but then we lost her. I pray so that this one will have an easier time. I'd post pictures, but mine keep coming up that they are too large. I'll keep trying.

12-12-2005, 07:36 PM	#1
wandakt YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: beaumont, texas Posts: 6	Does anyone know anything about heart murmors I rescued a little 10 month old yorkie last weekend and found out today that she has a level one or greater heart murmor. She has to be the cutest, sweetest thing ever and only 2.2 lbs. When I got her on Thursday she was scared of her shadow and acted like a dog that was kenneled most of her life. She has now joined our family and has bonded with both my husband and I and my other yorkies and now waits for us to pick her up. The party I got her from has told me that I can bring her back and get my money back but I think that would do her more harm than good. I am willing to spend whatever it will take to repair her heart if possible. I just don't know where to start and my vet wasn't much help. Does anyone have any advice. Thanks. Powder Puff's new mom.

12-12-2005, 09:53 PM	#2
Connie Loved by Maddie & Libby Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Dakota Posts: 10,732	Hello and bless your heart for rescuing little Powder Puff! She sounds so adorable! I don't have any experience with heart murmer, but wanted to wish you the best with her and I hope she can do well with this problem. I've done a search and have a few links you can check out, unless you already have seen them! One thing I learned when searching was that a level one heart murmur is the softest and it goes up to 6 being the worst. I am wondering why your vet didn't have much to say about it. Maybe you should get a second opinion? Best wishes to you and Powder Puff and welcome to YT! Here's some links: http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-2518.html http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/...onemurmur.html http://www.vetinfo.com/dmurmur.html#...r%20in%20puppy http://www.backcsc.com/heart.html __________________ Custom doggie dresses and vests Memory is a country where I can go to see your face - but where do I go when I miss your embrace?

12-12-2005, 10:07 PM	#3
livingdustmops Princess Poop A Lot Donating Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,728	I am a little confused on your saying you are rescuing this little girl but it sounds like you are buying her from someone. If you purchased her, did the seller tell you she had a heart problem? Is the person selling her giving you a health guarantee? I am also confused on your vet not being helpful, but is that because he hasn't seen the puppy? If your vet saw the puppy just exactly what did he say? I think Connie gave you some good website to start reading about this. __________________ Cindy & The Rescued Gang Puppies Are Not Products!

12-13-2005, 04:06 AM	#4
red98vett Yorkie Kisses are the Best! Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Houston TX Posts: 33,590 Blog Entries: 1	My grandmothers little toy poodle was named Powder Puff too ....GOOD LUCK with your new baby and perhaps a 2nd opinion for her ? If you aren't happy with your vet it sounds like a good time to try another one....I LOVE my vet and couldn't imagine going to one I didn't respect or trust. It sounds like she has a mild Murmer but I sure would look into the signs of trouble and find out everything you can about it since she is SO tiny. __________________ Villette, Chanel & Cheri www.DesignsByVillette.net Custom Address Labels and Note Cards using YOUR Photos! Just Click HERE!

12-13-2005, 05:10 AM	#6
hasrv4fun Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 496	Get a second opinion or third or whatever till you find someone who knows about this condition. It may not be anything to be upset about- My Spencer ( 6 yr old toy poodle ) has had a level one murmur also since I got him at 9 weeks and he is healthy , happy,,and active. I am not saying to not to be concerned but get it checked by some one who knows !!! __________________ Helen & Furkids HAVE YOU HUGGED YOUR YORKIE (or any dog)TODAY

12-13-2005, 05:03 AM	#5
sylvan YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 2,484	I am familiar with aspects of/treatments for PDA (Patent Ductus Arteriosus). There are other causes of murmur, valve issues etc...You need to get an accurate diagnosis, PDA's are not uncommon and can be heard with a stethoscope. Dr Sleeper at UPenn is one of the tops in this field and may provide a referral to a specialist closer to you.

12-13-2005, 07:20 AM	#7
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	You have had some good advice and as Sylvan said,, a teaching vet hospital is the best but even if getting to one is not possible for you, the baby still needs a more accurate diagnosis. If she is indeed a rescue, the rescue agency might help with her medical expenses. But, I think they would have told you about it when you took her, so maybe I mis-understand the status of the level of rescue she is.. Best of luck in her care..

12-13-2005, 10:10 PM	#8
SnowWa YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA Posts: 2,992	I work in Cardiology. Heart murmurs are graded according to how loud they are. They are graded 1/6 through 6/6 with 6 being the loudest murmur and the grade 1 being the mildest murmur. My doctor told me that you can almost hear a grade 6 murmur across the room. With people some heart murmurs are benign and harmless - others require treatment. (I have a murmur - and have always been told not to worry about it.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here is a great explanation about heart murmurs from a vet: When it is possible, economically, for the owner of a puppy with a heart murmur to have a cardiac ultrasound (echo) exam done, I think that is the best course of action. It is unquestionable that many murmurs that are present congenitally will never cause any problem during a dog's lifetime. However, it is also definitely true that some do. Ultrasound exam is the best way to evaluate heart murmurs because it gives a good idea of how much of the blood flow in the heart is being misdirected and also identifies readily where the defect is that is allowing the blood flow to produce a murmur. When it isn't possible for a pet owner to comfortably pay for cardiac ultrasound exam, we do our best to evaluate the overall situation and advise the owner based on clinical signs present. If a puppy is gaining weight normally, is active and doesn't tire readily, has a normal red blood cell count adjusted for his or her age and isn't showing any other signs of heart disease, we advise just waiting to see what happens. If there are definite clinical signs of heart disease, in addition to the murmur, we push much more strongly for advanced testing. Since cardiac ultrasound exam is by far the most effective method of evaluating heart murmurs, I'd skip things like ECGs to get the ultrasound exam, if a choice has to be made between tests. Hope this helps some. Mike Richards, DVM PS: - If cardiac studies and workups for a dog are anywhere near what they cost for people - please be advised that if there is a serious problem, you may really not be able to afford the surgery. I just read about Lance Armstrong's dog's heart surgery (valve surgery). It cost $10,000. but, money was no object for him. If I paid $10,000 for surgery. I would also have to pay travel expenses to wherever they do it - and lose a lot of work time, etc., also. I am hoping that your dog's murmur is not harmful and that he can live happily ever after with it. Let us know what you learn! Carol Jean __________________ http://tinypic.com/ipxhmb.jpg A Yorkie is worth a thousand words.

12-21-2005, 09:10 AM	#9
wandakt YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: beaumont, texas Posts: 6	Does anyone know about heart murmors Sorry it has taken me so long to get back but Powder Puff and I have been doing a little investigating ourselves and seeing another vet. First of all, let me clarify the rescuing part. I actually paid for this little one. I did know that she had a problem but not a heart murmur. A well known kennel in Texas sent her to my area to find a good home. They advised me to take her to the vet. I took her to one of the vets that I use last Monday and he thought she has a level 4 heart murmur but was quick to explain that he really knows nothing about hearts. I called the lady I got her from and explained what I had found out. She offered to take her back but also gave me the number of the kennel who had her for the last 10 months of her life. I called the kennel and got all the pertinent information and was told that her vet had diagnosed her with a level one heart murmur. This dog was originally sold for $5000 but was replaced with a new puppy when the medical findings were known. Now first of all, I already have 6 yorkies and was not out looking for another one. Somehow mine and this little dogs paths crossed and my heart told me that I needed to do whatever was neccessary to help her. The kennel offered me a 2 year health guarantee stating that if the dog did not live past 2 years they would replace her or refund my money. I don't think anything is going to happen to her in 2 years but that was enough fuel for me to say that I needed to keep going with this. Last Tuesday, I took her to another vet that was recommended to me. He has only been out of vet school for 2 years but his specialty was hearts. He told me that he felt she had a high level 1, level 2 heart murmur. He told me she would never be a candidate for heart surgery (mostly because of her size) but felt that she could live a fairly healthy life for 5, 6, maybe 10 years using various medications. He started her on Enalapril which is supposedly a mild blood pressure medicine. He will reevaluate her in a month and do blood work and hopefully the ultrasound. He said that through the years, the medication will have to be tweaked here and there but he thought I was the right one for the dog. I am willing to do whatever it takes for as long as I can. If they told me they could fix her heart for $10,000, I am sure I would try to find someway to do it. I know I have only had her for 2 weeks but she seems to round out our household. My other little ones have accepted her and my husband and I have accepted her limitations (althought right now she seems to have none) and our responsibilities to her. Keep her in your prayers always. She is an angel and deserves to have as good a life as she is allowed to live here on earth and I will do my best to give her that. Merry Christmas to all of you. Wanda

12-22-2005, 06:47 AM	#11
wandakt YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: beaumont, texas Posts: 6	Does anyone know about heart murmurs Thanks Kara. I suspect this little one will live a long life. It is scary buying a dog with this, especially one as little as she is, but we are going to work through it. It is better than having the kennel put her down. Even if she just lives a few months here being able to have the run of the house and sleeping in a bed next to a live person and frolicing with the other dogs, it will be worth it. She is a real joy to our lives. Merry Christmas. Wanda

01-23-2006, 06:28 PM	#13
LuvMy5Yorkies Donating Senior YorkieTalker Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sevierville, Tennessee Posts: 227	PDA in puppy I am carring for a puppy who is 7 months old, under 3 pounds that has this. She has had an ultrasound and is hopefully getting better. The vet did talk of her having to have heart surgery if it does not get better. She plays and acts fine. I think we are going to ask to keep her and get the operation if needed to close up the defect. We were told the cost is around $2,000 in our area. We have five yorkeis at the moment, but I'm going to let my good friend have one and our daughter will take another one later. This will leave only tinies for her to play with. My heart is hurting just reading about this. Now I understand what my good friend who's litter she is out of has been going through.

01-24-2006, 07:57 AM	#14
wandakt YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: beaumont, texas Posts: 6	Heart murmur I know how you are feeling but I think after a period of time it does get better and less scary for you. The first vet we saw told us this little 2.3 lb beauty had a level 4 heart murmor. Well that is pretty much certain death and in a pretty short time. I wasn't willing to stop there. I searched for a vet that specialized in hearts and was amazed at how wrong he thought the other vet was. His diagnosis was a high level 1. He told me that by giving her 1/2 tablet of enalapril for the rest of her life would probably give her a life expectancy of 5, 6, 8 maybe 10 years. He said that during that time we would have to tweak her medication and that she probably would have some congenital heart problems but even then it would not be as bad as I am thinking. She has been on it now for a month and is doing great. She had 15 teeth pulled last week and was spayed and the vet said you would never have known she had a heart problem. My vet did tell me that she would never be a candidate for heart surgery. He said that because of her size and the expertise in the field he just wouldn't recommend it. He knows that I would spend whatever it takes to make her right but he just doesn't think she would make it. But you know what. I can live with 5 to 10 years. She is the smallest of our 7. Although, my biggest one is only 4 lbs and the rest are around 3 lbs. but she acts like a 7 lber. She fits right in with them and is way more playful than the whole bunch. I don't even think about her heart problem anymore. I'm just going to enjoy her like she is. Many prayers to you and your little one. It sounds like she might have something a little different than a heart murmor but then maybe that is good if she can have the surgery and be fixed. I do know having the right vet is crucial and in your case it might be wise to get a second opinion. Maybe a diagnostic clinic. At any rate, keep me posted as to how things go or if you just need an ear to vent on. Wanda

01-24-2006, 02:40 PM	#15
LuvMy5Yorkies Donating Senior YorkieTalker Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sevierville, Tennessee Posts: 227	Heart Murmors Thanks Wanda, I'm going to do my best to help this little doll. We have one of the best vests in this area. The last dog we had heart trouble with was our powder puff chinese crested. She was around 7 when she developed the "heart cough". Kendra was such a doll. She was on meds and it helped her for a year, but then we lost her. I pray so that this one will have an easier time. I'd post pictures, but mine keep coming up that they are too large. I'll keep trying.