Lucy

[Ringo1]

Something is wrong with Lucy. The first time it happened - last week - I thought I was being paranoid. Looking for symptoms . . due to her MVD. I had accidentally given her some of Ringo's canned beef instead of her canned Lamb; realized it too late; and then fretted about it.

Later that evening, she came into my room with a glazed look in her eyes and her back legs gave out - just for a second. I carried her downstairs and the minute I sat her down - she was bouncing around with a toy. So I thought I must have been imagining things.

Tonight, we were walking a trail and about halfway through; she stopped for a second and was shaking. I thought she was scared so I picked her up and carried her. When I put her down - she laid down on the trail for a second and could not get up. It was like her back legs didn't want to work. 2 seconds later - she was fine. Pulling and tugging at the leash to go. She walked the rest of the way home and is now out running the yard with Ringo.

I have a call into her vet. Any ideas? Have I gotten complacent and giving her too much protein? But it was at least 2 hours after she ate. She ate canned Wellness turkey on top of her Wellness dry food which is a fairly low protein food. Her last BAT was only mildly elevated - her vet said she was fine and just don't overload her protein. Oh, and I have been putting a little milk thistle on her dinner.

I'm worried sick and off to search threads and worry myself sicker.

Sorry I'm rambling.

[Ellie May]

What were the BAT results?
Is the vet sure it is MVD?
How was it diagnosed? Biopsy?
All other neuro issues ruled out?
Why was BAT done? Symptoms?

[Ringo1]

Here's one of my old posts that goes over her background; her last BAT was in Feb.

Her pre was less than 5 (previously 51) and her post-feeding test result was 35 (previously 41).

Her vet does not think that she needs to go to Ohio State for the scintography. He thinks she has mild MVD with no symptoms at this time.

He recommends that we just keep doing what we are doing - which is basically nothing since she has no symptoms. She is still on her Purina Puppy Chow (I know) - mixed with some lower protein Wellness that I discovered. All protein treats have been discontinued - which I did on my own after reading on here. Apple and Cheerios instead.

He does not recommend any supplements at this time.

He says he is comfortable doing her spay and has other liver dogs that he follows.

I'm ok with everything that he said except that he won't give me the prescription food at this time. Also, I think she should take [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]milk [COLOR=green !important]thistle[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] . . but perhaps I can get this on my own at a health food store???

Dwerten, I know I saw a thread that mention the specific anesthesia that should be used for liver dogs. I'll try to find it and make sure that is what he uses when he does her spay.

If anyone has any thoughts let me know. Right now, Lucy is fine with no symptoms.

Refresher - she had a sibling PTS as a baby for liver shunt. Lucy's puppy [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]liver [COLOR=green !important]enzymes[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] were normal. We first BAT tested 1 month ago after she had a bad week-end after eating some Alpo that a neighbor had given me.
No symptoms since that time. No more Alpo either.

I just want to do the right thing and perhaps I already am. I'm a little concerned that he won't give me the rx food but he just says she doesn't need that right now. "Be careful what you feed her - but what she's on right now appears to be fine."

Thanks for your thoughts. I love my little girl; she is so sweet and I want to have her for a long, long time.

[Ellie May]

What was the bad week on the Alpo? What symptoms?

The thing about vet calling it MVD (and so many of them do...maybe not wrong), is that it can only be diagnosed with biopsy, so that is just an educated guess.

With numbers that low, it could be MVD or something else altogether. But that doesn't mean there isn't something else going on too. Maybe another neuro issue? But it seems that this happened after Alpo, and then after beef, and then after Wellness turkey? If these weird episodes do happen only related to food, then I'd have to suspect it's the liver. In that case, if she does get these types of symptoms from moderate to high protein, then more restrictions will be necessary. Not saying an rx diet... And if it is the liver doing this with a bit of a protein increase, then I would absolutely have her on supplements. I'd want to protect the liver as much as possible. And things like SAMe will not hurt her.

Since the littermate had LS, I can only tell you what I would do. And at the vet least, that would be supplements. Ellie is asymptomatic for the most part and I still supplement.

[Ringo1]

Well, thanks for connecting those dots for me. Yes, it was after the Alpo, the Beef, and tonight the Turkey. So . . . makes sense.

The alpo symptoms were the worst - back in January. A well meaning neighbor brought me over a can and I put some on her food. She acted strange all week-end; her vet diagnosed gas; but when she continued with lethargy and hiding from us; he said that is not normal puppy behavior and decided to BAT due to her genetic history.

Numbers were slightly elevated; we waited 30 days and re-tested and got the fairly low numbers I posted.

I guess eliminate the turkey? She absolutely will not eat her dry food; I give her carrots in the morning and was giving her salmon in the evening but thought - well turkey is white meat . . should be ok. She has had it before but now . . . stick to canned fish? Chicken?

What supplements do you give? I got the milk thistle on my own because the vet wouldn't prescribe anything. I think maybe he will this time.

[Ellie May]

How old is she?
Why the extra meat or fish? Just to get her to eat?
Have you tried something else? Sweet potato? Yogurt?

I just use Denosyl and would use milk thistle and lactulose if Ellie had more symptoms. Problem getting them without vet's agreement is some of them reallllly don't like when clients do things like that. So you may be better off switching vets/getting a second opinion b/c it would be less of an uphill battle. Not really sure why vet would have a problem with supplements (I can understand the extreme restriction of protein) b/c it really does not hurt anything. Ellie's vet and internist both said it was up to me but there was no reason not to.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

How old is she?
Why the extra meat or fish? Just to get her to eat?
Have you tried something else? Sweet potato? Yogurt?

I just use Denosyl and would use milk thistle and lactulose if Ellie had more symptoms. Problem getting them without vet's agreement is some of them reallllly don't like when clients do things like that. So you may be better off switching vets/getting a second opinion b/c it would be less of an uphill battle. Not really sure why vet would have a problem with supplements (I can understand the extreme restriction of protein) b/c it really does not hurt anything. Ellie's vet and internist both said it was up to me but there was no reason not to.

Yes, just to get her to eat. It has to mix well with her food or she flat out will not eat the dry food. I need to find a low protein food that she actually likes. Yogurt did not agree with her; but I might try sweet potato. She also loves carrots but she gets those every morning - alternated with green beans.

I'm anxious to see what my Vet has to say. I don't feel I am doing enough to help her liver. I'll cut out the turkey for sure.

Is chicken broth ok? She loves it if I boil chicken - no seasoning - and put a little broth on her food. That's easy enough to do.

She will be one year old in August.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Yes, just to get her to eat. It has to mix well with her food or she flat out will not eat the dry food. I need to find a low protein food that she actually likes. Yogurt did not agree with her; but I might try sweet potato. She also loves carrots but she gets those every morning - alternated with green beans.

I'm anxious to see what my Vet has to say. I don't feel I am doing enough to help her liver. I'll cut out the turkey for sure.

Is chicken broth ok? She loves it if I boil chicken - no seasoning - and put a little broth on her food. That's easy enough to do.

She will be one year old in August.

I would not give chicken broth unless you find out these symptoms aren't liver related. It may be in her best interest to go to the more liver friendly proteins all around.

[dwerten]

Back legs going out has me concerned neurological. I would have a neurological exam done. I do not know anyone that has had back legs going out in an mvd dog with those low numbers. She needs to be on low protein diet 18%. You may want to do natural balance vegetarian and cook some baked cod and sprinkle a little on top of the food to get her to eat it as that is what i do with demi as she is a picky eater and it works.

If she was just acting spaced out after eating i would be ok with putting it on mvd but the back legs are tied to neurological sign and can be the onset of something neurological related to the spine that run in this breed.

Do not want to scare you but this i would get on quickly and have a neuro consult

Please hold off on vaccinations (one year booster and rabies that is coming up) until you make sure she is healthy for them

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

Back legs going out has me concerned neurological. I would have a neurological exam done. I do not know anyone that has had back legs going out in an mvd dog with those low numbers. She needs to be on low protein diet 18%. You may want to do natural balance vegetarian and cook some baked cod and sprinkle a little on top of the food to get her to eat it as that is what i do with demi as she is a picky eater and it works.

If she was just acting spaced out after eating i would be ok with putting it on mvd but the back legs are tied to neurological sign and can be the onset of something neurological related to the spine that run in this breed.

Do not want to scare you but this i would get on quickly and have a neuro consult

Please hold off on vaccinations (one year booster and rabies that is coming up) until you make sure she is healthy for them

This has me concerned also. I don't like the sound of it, especially with those low numbers. Hoping it is just the liver (and it could be, esp. since it's after high protein), but it is something to look into.

Well, that didn't quote right. Her first sentence anyway...

[dwerten]

i want you to make sure your vet or neuro rule this out as with what you are describing this is my biggest concern- read the symptoms - the back legs going out is a very big concern as many times this gets misdiagnosed for brain tumor and disc issues in back because legs are going out

Granulomatous Meningoencephalomyelitis (GME)

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

This has me concerned also. I don't like the sound of it, especially with those low numbers. Hoping it is just the liver (and it could be, esp. since it's after high protein), but it is something to look into.

Well, that didn't quote right. Her first sentence anyway...

yeah we are getting a lot of dogs on here recently with legs going out which is tied to gme and so far one has a firm diagnosis of gme now and the other i think does as well. It comes on slowly within a couple months whamo. It sounds like it is coming on with legs going out. I think the protein can be also a factor but not for the legs read the gme info i just posted they get spaced out etc.

I would refrain from walking and stressing out the body until you figure out what is going on

sometimes it can all start within 2 mos of vaccinations as the vaccines do not cause it they are a trigger as gme is an autoimmune disease and it runs in this breed

[dwerten]

check out this thread - back legs were going out and spaced out turned out to be blindness

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...very-sick.html

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by dwerten

yeah we are getting a lot of dogs on here recently with legs going out which is tied to gme and so far one has a firm diagnosis of gme now and the other i think does as well. It comes on slowly within a couple months whamo. It sounds like it is coming on with legs going out. I think the protein can be also a factor but not for the legs read the gme info i just posted they get spaced out etc.

I would refrain from walking and stressing out the body until you figure out what is going on

sometimes it can all start within 2 mos of vaccinations as the vaccines do not cause it they are a trigger as gme is an autoimmune disease and it runs in this breed

I must be missing something......back legs giving out is a symptom of GME?

Where is this information about vaccines being a trigger for GME?

I really think that this pup needs to go to a specialist if she has not already. There could be so many different things going on and to guess and scare oneself is not a good idea imo. I would not start looking at disastrous diagnoses at this point. Just my thoughts.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I must be missing something......back legs giving out is a symptom of GME?

Where is this information about vaccines being a trigger for GME?

I really think that this pup needs to go to a specialist if she has not already. There could be so many different things going on and to guess and scare oneself is not a good idea imo. I would not start looking at disastrous diagnoses at this point. Just my thoughts.

read the link yes it is a sign and i was right about the other dog with leg paralysis. My friends dog has GME and her dog had leg paralysis so YES leg paralysis is a sign of this disease. It depends on what area of the spinal chord is being affected.

I will state it AGAIN for you vaccines can be a TRIGGER not a CAUSE