differentiating MVD and PSVA - YorkieTalk.com Forums

magicgenie · 03-12-2009, 11:43 AM

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

She's talking about the Cairn Terrier here, but is it different for Yorkie?

TLC · 03-12-2009, 11:53 AM

Not sure what you angle is, but the answer is NO.

magicgenie · 03-12-2009, 12:07 PM

Seizures

magicgenie · 03-12-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLC

Not sure what you angle is, but the answer is NO.

no angle, just trying to learn new stuff---i'm sorry I posted in the wrong forum--admin may want to move or delete-

Ladymom · 03-12-2009, 04:31 PM

According to Dr. Center, these are the breeds highly affected by liver shunts: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese. These are the breeds she recommends routinely have a bile acids test once they are 20 weeks old.

Yorkies are the most affected breed.

Anyway, to answer your question, no, the protocol for Yorkies is no different than for Cairns.

magicgenie · 03-13-2009, 04:01 PM

I appreciate the help. The particular thing I'm stuck on at the moment is where the report Dr. Center wrote for the Cairn Terrier presentation talks about MVD not necessarily having symptoms or needing treatment. I'm also a bit confused further down where she talks about not culling MVD dogs, and again when she talks about BAT on puppies. If a puppy tests high wouldn't we still have to find out why?

magicgenie · 03-13-2009, 04:06 PM

The article on Seizures makes reference to something from Dr. Center about culling breeding animals based on BAT that seems at odds with some other information we've been given. That's why I'm questioning the reliability of the source. You seem to read a lot so I wondered if you ever came upon this before.

Ladymom · 03-13-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magicgenie

I appreciate the help. The particular thing I'm stuck on at the moment is where the report Dr. Center wrote for the Cairn Terrier presentation talks about MVD not necessarily having symptoms or needing treatment. I'm also a bit confused further down where she talks about not culling MVD dogs, and again when she talks about BAT on puppies. If a puppy tests high wouldn't we still have to find out why?

According to Dr. Center, MVD dogs are usually not symptomatic and do not produce ammonium crystals, so they do not need protein restricted diets. She feels most symptomatic MVD dogs were initially misdiagnosed and do have shunts.

Hepatic Vascular Disorders - WSAVA 2006 Congress

If a puppy has a BAT over 25, it is considered abnormal. And, yes, you do have to find out why. A Protein C test is the next step:

Comparative Coagulation -- NYS Animal Health Diagnostic Center

As far as not culling MVD dogs, her explanation is too technical for me! What I have heard Maltese breeders argue is that the gene pool is so small in purebred dogs anyway, it might not be advisable to limit it further. I think the whole community of affected breeds like Yorkies and Maltese are hoping Dr. Center is able to find a genetic marker for liver shunts so that extreme culling won't be necessary.

magicgenie · 03-14-2009, 03:30 AM

I owe you big time for finding that WSAVA 2006 Congress piece. I read that article some time back and that was one of the things that gave me the idea that people should not panic and rush into anything when facing Liver Shunt. It says right there in the article that they've seen elderly dogs that lived normally their whole lives with liver shunts, and that many milder cases could be medically managed. They say this in the same paragraph where they talk about the failure rate of surgery. I think they're trying to say that people really need to weigh all the risks and comparative benefits before opting for surgery, and that a Liver Shunt diagnosis is not a death sentence. At least, that's the message I get out of it.
The wonderful news coming out of all this reading is that Dr. Center and her colleagues at Cornell are close to developing a test that will help identify which dogs not to breed.

TLC · 03-14-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magicgenie

I owe you big time for finding that WSAVA 2006 Congress piece. I read that article some time back and that was one of the things that gave me the idea that people should not panic and rush into anything when facing Liver Shunt. It says right there in the article that they've seen elderly dogs that lived normally their whole lives with liver shunts, and that many milder cases could be medically managed. They say this in the same paragraph where they talk about the failure rate of surgery. I think they're trying to say that people really need to weigh all the risks and comparative benefits before opting for surgery, and that a Liver Shunt diagnosis is not a death sentence. At least, that's the message I get out of it.
The wonderful news coming out of all this reading is that Dr. Center and her colleagues at Cornell are close to developing a test that will help identify which dogs not to breed.

Yes - I agree that LS and MVD is not a death sentence. However, I disagree with you regarding not opting for surgery. The success rate is very good and so is the possibility of the dog living a normal happy life after surgery. The quality of life a dog has living with a LS is extremely different than that life after surgery, both for the dog and the human care taker. I urge you not discourage anyone from obtaining surgery for an LS dog. What I suggest you do instead is educate people and guide them to accomplish the minor tests first: CBC, BAT, Urine from those results seek a Protein C test from those results then move onto a specialist.

Opting to care for an LS dog not having surgery would require such "special and restrictive routes and schedules" and unfortunately in todays fast world, finding that type of care giver is going to be very, very rare...

magicgenie · 03-14-2009, 08:15 AM

Read the literature and make up you own minds. Significantly symptomatic cases of liver shunt are most likely not good candidates for medical management. Milder cases might be. The past couple of years I think some real progress has been made in the area of medical management and the commercially prepared foods seem to be working well. I don't see crushing a pill onto the dog's food as being a huge burden compared to the risks of surgery in the manageable cases. Some people just don't have the means to pay for surgery, or otherwise don't feel comfortable with the risks and I don't think they should be made to feel inadequate for it. Then there is the matter of the big business profit making veterinary places that will do everything in their power to guilt you into running up a huge bill. At least go to a not-for-profit teaching place for a really objective look at the situation. Personally I'd head to Cornell.

03-12-2009, 11:43 AM	#1
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	differentiating MVD and PSVA PSVA and MVD Research Summary She's talking about the Cairn Terrier here, but is it different for Yorkie?

03-12-2009, 11:53 AM	#2
TLC Slave to My Rug-Rats Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 7,247	Not sure what you angle is, but the answer is NO. __________________ Adopt Donate Foster www.yorkie911rescue.com

03-12-2009, 12:07 PM	#3
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	is this a credible report or author? Seizures

03-12-2009, 04:31 PM	#5
Ladymom Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,317	According to Dr. Center, these are the breeds highly affected by liver shunts: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese. These are the breeds she recommends routinely have a bile acids test once they are 20 weeks old. Yorkies are the most affected breed. Anyway, to answer your question, no, the protocol for Yorkies is no different than for Cairns. __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...6213341?ref=nf

03-13-2009, 04:01 PM	#6
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	thanks Ladymom I appreciate the help. The particular thing I'm stuck on at the moment is where the report Dr. Center wrote for the Cairn Terrier presentation talks about MVD not necessarily having symptoms or needing treatment. I'm also a bit confused further down where she talks about not culling MVD dogs, and again when she talks about BAT on puppies. If a puppy tests high wouldn't we still have to find out why?

03-13-2009, 04:06 PM	#7
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	Also, Ladymom The article on Seizures makes reference to something from Dr. Center about culling breeding animals based on BAT that seems at odds with some other information we've been given. That's why I'm questioning the reliability of the source. You seem to read a lot so I wondered if you ever came upon this before. Last edited by magicgenie; 03-13-2009 at 04:08 PM.

03-14-2009, 03:30 AM	#9
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	Thank you again, Ladymom. I owe you big time for finding that WSAVA 2006 Congress piece. I read that article some time back and that was one of the things that gave me the idea that people should not panic and rush into anything when facing Liver Shunt. It says right there in the article that they've seen elderly dogs that lived normally their whole lives with liver shunts, and that many milder cases could be medically managed. They say this in the same paragraph where they talk about the failure rate of surgery. I think they're trying to say that people really need to weigh all the risks and comparative benefits before opting for surgery, and that a Liver Shunt diagnosis is not a death sentence. At least, that's the message I get out of it. The wonderful news coming out of all this reading is that Dr. Center and her colleagues at Cornell are close to developing a test that will help identify which dogs not to breed.

03-14-2009, 08:15 AM	#11
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	Education is key Read the literature and make up you own minds. Significantly symptomatic cases of liver shunt are most likely not good candidates for medical management. Milder cases might be. The past couple of years I think some real progress has been made in the area of medical management and the commercially prepared foods seem to be working well. I don't see crushing a pill onto the dog's food as being a huge burden compared to the risks of surgery in the manageable cases. Some people just don't have the means to pay for surgery, or otherwise don't feel comfortable with the risks and I don't think they should be made to feel inadequate for it. Then there is the matter of the big business profit making veterinary places that will do everything in their power to guilt you into running up a huge bill. At least go to a not-for-profit teaching place for a really objective look at the situation. Personally I'd head to Cornell. Last edited by magicgenie; 03-14-2009 at 08:17 AM.