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Old 06-03-2008, 11:29 PM   #1
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Default Yet another question about patellar luxation

I've looked through the forums here, and I can't find an answer to these specific questions, but there are so many posts about this problem that I may have missed it. If so, please forgive me for asking a repeat question.

One of my Yorkies, a rescue, has luxating patellas in both hind legs. My vet picked up on it as soon as I got her. I started to have the surgery even though it's terribly expensive, but then I found out the convalescence period was two months, and I was horrified. I had thought maybe a couple of weeks. She loves to run and play, and I can't imagine her having to sit in a bed with a cast for that long, being unable to walk properly, and being unable to run at all. I was heartbroken even thinking about this. She had a hard time even with her spaying. She went to the bathroom in her bed for three days even though she's full trained, and wouldn't come out even to eat or drink. I had to take water and food to the bed for her. I had both my girls spayed at the same time, and the other was running around the house the next day like nothing had happened.

I asked my vet what she would do if it were her dog, and she said she'd wait to see what happens. She's only a grade two, and not clinical, but once she becomes clinical the damage isn't reversible. My vet, whom I think very highly of, said we should just monitor her closely since many small dogs with low-grade luxation live their entire lives without becoming clinical. What do all of you think about that? Surgery now, or wait?

My second, and more pressing question, is how can I tell this on my own? I'm going to look at some new puppies soon, and I'd like to know how to look for it. I even called the vet to ask if she could give me tips, but she said if the gait isn't abnormal, it's difficult for a layperson to detect. She said I could try comparing one to the other to see if I could tell the difference. Well, I can't. Tali's knees seem to be completely stable when I do what I see the vet do, and they feel the same to me as my other Yorkie's. If any of you could tell me what to look for other than obvious things like an abnormal gait (which even Tali doesn't have), I'd be very grateful.

Many thanks in advance.
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Old 06-04-2008, 06:19 AM   #2
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This is a hard question to answer for a grade II. Gracie was a grade II in one leg, a grade III in the other, based on clinical exam pre-op. It was the pre-op grade III leg that she favored when going down stairs or hills. She had the surgery. It turned out that based on operative findings, the pre-op grade II was actually a grade III, but was not symptomatic. My GF is a vet. She told me that the LPs cause pain every time they luxate, even if the dog does not overtly show it. For a grade II, you might consider getting another opinion or two. As you are probably aware, while many dogs do just fine without surgery, many others do not and end up with arthritis much sooner than a dog without LP and by the time the arthritis sets in, it is too late to do anything about it.

Gracie's recovery time went like this. 4 weeks strict confinement, then gradually return to normal activity over the next 4 weeks. For the first couple of weeks, she was in pain and did not want to wander around much. It was hard keeping her quiet after that. Somehow they know they have an owie and need to stay quiet, at least as long as the bandages/casts are on.
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:10 AM   #3
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bumping this up for you,,sorry i cant help on this one
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:08 AM   #4
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I have a girl with a low grad LP and I will not put her through the surgery unless it bothers her. She runs and plays just fine. The only thing I make sure of that when she wants to get up or down off of something, she either has a step or I pick her up and put her up or down. She goes up and down stairs just fine, I just don't want her jumping because that can cause more damage to the leg joints.

If you are getting another puppy, make sure there is a couple of days so that you can have your vet check the legs before you decide on keeping the pup. A vet can check right away and know, but be aware that LP is not always inherited, but can be the cause of jumping and landing wrong, or some other injury.
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:52 AM   #5
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Default Thank you so much for the responses, and the other question...

I can't stand the thought of a four week confinement. I simply can't stand it. I think I'll wait to see if it seems to be painful. I don't allow the one that has it to try to jump off and on the couch or bed, or even to go up and down stairs. I carry her. Sometimes she just runs up and down our deck stairs before I can catch her (they're quick), and I'm trying to break her of that. I'll monitor closely and think about surgery as soon as it becomes a problem so there's no serious damage.

The question I asked in my last posting about detecting patellar luxation...do any of you have any tips on that? I'm going to look at the new puppies on Sunday, and I'd be very grateful to know what to look for since I won't be able to return them once I get them.

Warmest regards to all,
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:02 AM   #6
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Some Yorkie puppies can have 'loose knees' at an early age and, as they get stronger, the knees will firm up. Some vets will call this a grade 1 LP. I think you'll probably have to rely on your vet to determine this when the puppy has his initial wellness check. Ask your breeder if they guarantee against LP at least at the time you acquire the pup. Many don't guarantee beyond this as LP can occur due to injury or excessive activity.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogie Man View Post
Some Yorkie puppies can have 'loose knees' at an early age and, as they get stronger, the knees will firm up. Some vets will call this a grade 1 LP. I think you'll probably have to rely on your vet to determine this when the puppy has his initial wellness check. Ask your breeder if they guarantee against LP at least at the time you acquire the pup. Many don't guarantee beyond this as LP can occur due to injury or excessive activity.
That's the problem. I know the vet will be able to detect it if it's already present when I take her in, but I won't be able to take her back.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:07 AM   #8
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I wouldn't get a pup that wasn't guaranteed at least long enough for a vet to check for soundness and overall health.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:35 AM   #9
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Default I think I didn't put that the right way...

They do guarantee the health. It's not a "breeder" per se, but they do a health guarantee. They would allow me to take her back, but I wouldn't be able to take her back.

You'd have to understand how much I love animals. I paid $850 to "rescue" my last Yorkie. Her LP was very obvious just from her gait, and she was malnourished. I could actually SEE her ribs. The breeder wouldn't even negotiate on the price because "tiny dogs just cost more." She was tiny because she was freaking starving.

I took her to my vet the next day as I do with any animal I buy, and even she was like, "My God, what did they do to this dog? This is bordering on animal abuse." I was crying when I went in, crying during the visit, and crying when I left.

She ate, and she ate, and she ate. She ate everything she could get until she figured out she was going to be able to get some food when she was hungry. She gained a full pound in about a week, and then settled into normal eating habits. She was on antibiotics for a month, for both an intestinal infection and and ear infections. She is now the sweetest dog in the world, even more so than my Yorkshire Terrorist that's been in her terrible two's for more than a year now. Tali (the one I'm referring to here) will sleep only on my pillow in bed, and she tries to sleep on my head until I scoot her off onto the pillow. (The pillow part is adorable, but it's hard to sleep with a dog on your head. I don't understand how her draping herself over my head would even be a comfortable place to sleep.)

I can't take an animal back once I take it home with me, just like I didn't even think of taking Tali back after I brought her home. I've spent around $2,000 on her now, and she's worth every penny of it
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:30 PM   #10
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This 'they' you are talking about wouldn't be a pet shop selling dogs, would it? You're not very clear in your post just where this pup is coming from. I understand your feelings as I have 'rescued' a pup from a breeder before. I'll never do it again as all it does is help them to continue their bad practices. If you look around, there are, sadly, too many pups out there that need rescuing from breeders, pet shops, etc. I applaud your big-heartedness but there are some out there that count on that quality in people to sell dogs. If your mind is made up already, all I can say is good luck and I do hope this pup is healthy.
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:41 PM   #11
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My vet said most puppies have loose knees and then as they grow stronger. It is important to not drop them or let the jump at young ages because they can develope LP.
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Old 06-06-2008, 11:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogie Man View Post
This 'they' you are talking about wouldn't be a pet shop selling dogs, would it? You're not very clear in your post just where this pup is coming from. I understand your feelings as I have 'rescued' a pup from a breeder before. I'll never do it again as all it does is help them to continue their bad practices. If you look around, there are, sadly, too many pups out there that need rescuing from breeders, pet shops, etc. I applaud your big-heartedness but there are some out there that count on that quality in people to sell dogs. If your mind is made up already, all I can say is good luck and I do hope this pup is healthy.
Woogie, thanks so much for all your responses. No, this isn't a pet shop. I never buy pets at pet shops, though I can't walk by one without stopping in to look at the animals

The people who have her for sale are a Mennonite family. (I live near Amish country.) They're farmers, not dog breeders, but people who have several pet Yorkies they allow to breed once per year to help put some food on the table (meaning what they can buy with the money, not that they're putting the dogs on the table).

They've been looking for several weeks for an owner for this puppy. All their puppies up until now have been in the 4.5 to 6.5 pound range, and they first though this puppy was sick because she was the "runt of the litter" as farmers like to call it. They've already sold their "normal-size" dogs from the litter, and they're trying to find someone with experience with very tiny dogs and with good references to sell this one to. Since they've never had a puppy turn out this small, they aren't sure what to do about it or who should own it. I've had to go back and forth on the phone about this for two weeks now to even get an appointment to go look at her.

They really know nothing about breeding. They told me they were going to have to have my "personal information" so they could "report" me to the AKC. When I asked what that meant, they said the AKC tracks all the purebred dogs in the US so they know who has them and if they're being taken care of. (Had to put the phone on mute for that one while I laughed.)

The fact that they aren't "breeders" doesn't mean they have defective dogs, and I'm not looking for a show dog, just a nice family pet. I know how to check for most potential problems, but I'm stumped on this LP thing. Like I said in an earlier post, I can't tell a bit of difference feeling Tali's knees vs. Tea's, so I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

Thanks so much to everyone for your kindness!
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Old 06-07-2008, 08:33 AM   #13
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I see more where you're coming from now. It's the emotional attachment you get so soon that wouldn't allow you to take hum back. You do want a healthy pup, though, as you already have 2 girls and one of them may need surgery. It can get very expensive if you have more than one with health issues. I bought a very little guy last year knowing that he had 'loose knees' at the time. As he got older, his knees have firmed up and he is fine. All I know about checking the knees is that the vet will get a knee between the thumb and forefinger and see how easy it is to get it to pop out of its groove. Some may be firm, some may wobble a bit and some may pop out. It seems like you would have to develop a feel for it and probably wouldn't know unless it was very easy to get it to move. Since the breeders thought the pup was sick and is the smallest they've ever had, would they be willing to take it to the vet themselves for a health check? That way you wouldn't develop a bond before you knew about the health. It's a little odd that the small one is the one they can't find a home for. With me, it's always my little ones that people want first. Also, what they told you about AKC tracking dogs may seem funny but really should be a red flag to you. If they are having several litters per year, they are breeders and know better. I wouldn't trust anyone once they told me something I knew to be untrue. I think if you looked further, you could find a breeder you could have more confidence in. The area you live in is known for puppy millers so be very careful who you buy from and make sure you're able to see just what kind of conditions the puppies (and dogs) live in.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:34 AM   #14
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Thanks for all the responses on this. Sorry to be so long responding but I'm in the middle of a nightmare project at work and have had no time for chat or forums.

Woogie, I decided not to go see it. I already knew that particular area is notorious for puppy mills with horrendous conditions, and I had talked to the breeder about it. He assured me that he wasn't one of those, but the day we were scheduled to go see it, I was having a very bad feeling about it and called and cancelled. The hubby was a little disappointed because he was eager to go see a new puppy, but I explained the best I could and he attributed it to "feminine intuition."

On a brighter note, I'm scheduled to go see two new ones this week
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