Liver Shunt Testing - YorkieTalk.com Forums

txshopper73 · 01-17-2008, 07:46 AM

Do breeders LS test their pups before they leave their home?

If so, at what age do they do the test?

Those that have bought pups, were your pups tested before you received them?

If so, at what age was the testing done?

Was testing done as a condition of the contract?

marcerella02 · 01-17-2008, 09:10 AM

i just emailed Layla's breeder and asked if she had one done.. she said she doesn't do it to her pups since you have to fast them for 12 hours and she doesnt' agree with doing that to such a young and tiny pup (layla came home at 1.9lbs) She does do her adults tho. Layla will be having one done in the next month more for my peace of mind... not because she shows any signs.

Yorkieluv · 01-17-2008, 09:17 AM

According to Dr. Sharon Center, one of the leaders in liver shunt/mvd research, states that it is not necessary to do a 12 hour fast...

marcerella02 · 01-17-2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

According to Dr. Sharon Center, one of the leaders in liver shunt/mvd research, states that it is not necessary to do a 12 hour fast...

lol... sorry i don't mean to laugh i can jsut see myself trying to tell my vet it's not needed... but i think that is great info for those that breed!

Yorkieluv · 01-17-2008, 09:34 AM

LOL

Two blood draws are important...It's necessary to have a pre-meal blood draw and a post-meal blood draw 2 hours after a feeding, but the 12 hour fast is not necessary. What is most important is to have paired samples around a meal (pre-meal and post-meal)...

jencar98 · 01-17-2008, 09:42 AM

Reno's breeder does bile acid and blood panel tests for her puppies. Ruby's breeder did not, but should have. I much prefer knowing beforehand the puppy I'm getting, according to the best testing available, will not have future problems.

If you have to raise the price of the puppy and pass it on to the buyer, it's still better, IMO. As the purchaser I would rather pay a little now and be certain.....than pay less now and possibly much, much more later!

Yorkieluv · 01-17-2008, 09:49 AM

Miko came from a puppymill, so obviously they did not do bile acid testing

I asked for the vets to do a BAT on him when he was 4-5 months old when I got him, but the vet was not knowledgable about liver shunt/mvd, so she refused to do this test on him...Then, we had him tested a few months later by a different vet and found out that he does have liver disease. He is now 3 1/2 yrs old

Ellie May · 01-17-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Miko came from a puppymill, so obviously they did not do bile acid testing

I asked for the vets to do a BAT on him when he was 4-5 months old when I got him, but the vet was not knowledgable about liver shunt/mvd, so she refused to do this test on him...Then, we had him tested a few months later by a different vet and found out that he does have liver disease. He is now 3 1/2 yrs old

Wow, refused? Usually they do them even if they think you are worrying too much because she could have gotten sued for not...

I have just being seeing that the 12 hour fast isn't necessary but I've decided to keep that to myself for now. I don't want to rock the boat too much more. I already refuse Science Diet, overvaccinating... If I go any further the vet might think I'm nutty.

Sugar's Mom · 01-17-2008, 11:27 AM

i don't do it on my puppies. But my adult dogs have all had it done when a few months old. My vet refuses to do it because of the fasting. he wouldn't do it on Ceeby at ten weeks old and now won't do it on my puppies. he is well aware that there are tests that can be done without fasting them but these tests usually require a repeat test at a few months old so it is just better in his opinion to wait until they are old enough and weigh enough that fasting isn't an issue and get a more accurate test. According to him, not me.

Yorkieluv · 01-17-2008, 12:48 PM

I have read that 6 months of age is optimal but can be done on pups as young as 9 weeks, again without the fast just pre and post....But it's important that it be the regular serum bile acid test NOT the IDEXX snap or the urine test.

MyTrixie143 · 01-17-2008, 12:48 PM

I have the parents tested but at this time the pups are not tested.
My vet is still use to the method of them fasting for 12 hours. I told them it was no longer required but until they have done more research into, they refuse to do the test without the fasting and I don't want a puppy to go on a 12 hour fast. I am hoping they will change their method soon.

txshopper73 · 01-17-2008, 03:00 PM

Well, I've talked to two vets this week. One vet suggested waiting until 5-6 months of age before the testing is done and the other (my vet) said that they could do it as soon as 8 weeks of age and they do the fasting method but to keep an eye on the pups for hypoglycemia.

MyFairLacy · 01-19-2008, 08:36 PM

I highly doubt Lacy was tested for anything before leaving her breeder. She was bought for me by my best friend. I decided to look back at the "contract" that came with her and saw there was only a 48 hour health guarantee

LOL I don't think I have looked at that piece of paper since I got her. I feel very fortunate that she hasn't had any serious health problems, not to say she could develop one in the future...she does have LP in both her legs..with her right leg being the worst..but it hasn't bothered her yet.

Anyway...back to LS testing... When I buy my next yorkie I want the breeder I buy from to have tested all her dogs for LS to make sure they are clear before breeding. I'm not sure at this time if I will insist that the puppy I buy be bile acid tested or not before I bring it home...I'm thinking that I will probably want it to be though. In any case, I would definitely have a full blood workup done and bile acid testing done before my puppy is spayed.

Ellie May · 01-19-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

I highly doubt Lacy was tested for anything before leaving her breeder. She was bought for me by my best friend. I decided to look back at the "contract" that came with her and saw there was only a 48 hour health guarantee

LOL I don't think I have looked at that piece of paper since I got her. I feel very fortunate that she hasn't had any serious health problems, not to say she could develop one in the future...she does have LP in both her legs..with her right leg being the worst..but it hasn't bothered her yet.

Anyway...back to LS testing... When I buy my next yorkie I want the breeder I buy from to have tested all her dogs for LS to make sure they are clear before breeding. I'm not sure at this time if I will insist that the puppy I buy be bile acid tested or not before I bring it home...I'm thinking that I will probably want it to be though. In any case, I would definitely have a full blood workup done and bile acid testing done before my puppy is spayed.

We were fortunate enough to get a 72 hour health guarantee

against life threatening diseases only and we would have had a full 24 hours to report any life threatening problems to the breeder after the exam.

How generous.

I think she was just one of those who didn't know any better.

Ladymom · 01-19-2008, 09:03 PM

The bile acid test was developed at Cornell by Dr. Center. They wrote the initial protocol and have since updated it.

This is taken from Page 5 of the handout Dr. Center gives out at her seminars:

7. Random "Fasting" Bile Acids ARE NOT reliable for RULING OUT liver dysfunction or abnormal portal circulation. Rather, you need PAIRED SAMPLES AROUND A MEAL. We no longer collect 12-hr fasting bile acids but instead collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a meal (post-meal or postprandial)." (all emphasis was added by Dr. Center)

This is from Page 22:

2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established. Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... " (all emphasis added by Dr. Center)

Since Yorkies are thirty-six times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined, I can't imagine why a breeder would not have a BAT done or a buyer insist that it be done before the puppy goes home. 12 hour fasting is no longer required and the test is so inexpensive.

Sadly, just because the parents are clear doesn't mean they won't produce a puppy with liver disease. We have two puppies on our Maltese forum from reputable show breeders whose parents were clear, had a CBC done before they came home with normal ALT's who have both been diagnosed with liver disease since - one with a shunt, one with MVD.

View Poll Results: Was liver shunt testing done on the pup?
LS tested before pup left breeder's home	3	18.75%
LS tested after the purchase of the pup	3	18.75%
8-10 weeks of age	1	6.25%
10-12 weeks of age	1	6.25%
12-14 weeks of age	1	6.25%
14+ weeks of age	9	56.25%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

01-17-2008, 07:46 AM	#1
txshopper73 Donating YT 14K Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Victoria, Texas Posts: 14,029 Blog Entries: 1	Liver Shunt Testing Do breeders LS test their pups before they leave their home? If so, at what age do they do the test? Those that have bought pups, were your pups tested before you received them? If so, at what age was the testing done? Was testing done as a condition of the contract? __________________ As always...JMO (Just My Opinion) Kimberley Gracie, London and Dallas Last edited by txshopper73; 01-17-2008 at 07:48 AM.

01-17-2008, 09:10 AM	#2
marcerella02 Loved by Layla Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ontario Canada...not California :( Posts: 6,811	i just emailed Layla's breeder and asked if she had one done.. she said she doesn't do it to her pups since you have to fast them for 12 hours and she doesnt' agree with doing that to such a young and tiny pup (layla came home at 1.9lbs) She does do her adults tho. Layla will be having one done in the next month more for my peace of mind... not because she shows any signs. __________________ Layla 's Simon Member of the Spoiled Rotten Club

01-17-2008, 09:17 AM	#3
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,436	According to Dr. Sharon Center, one of the leaders in liver shunt/mvd research, states that it is not necessary to do a 12 hour fast... __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

01-17-2008, 09:34 AM	#5
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,436	LOL Two blood draws are important...It's necessary to have a pre-meal blood draw and a post-meal blood draw 2 hours after a feeding, but the 12 hour fast is not necessary. What is most important is to have paired samples around a meal (pre-meal and post-meal)... __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

01-17-2008, 09:42 AM	#6
jencar98 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,392	Reno's breeder does bile acid and blood panel tests for her puppies. Ruby's breeder did not, but should have. I much prefer knowing beforehand the puppy I'm getting, according to the best testing available, will not have future problems. If you have to raise the price of the puppy and pass it on to the buyer, it's still better, IMO. As the purchaser I would rather pay a little now and be certain.....than pay less now and possibly much, much more later! __________________ ~Ruby & Reno~

01-17-2008, 09:49 AM	#7
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,436	Miko came from a puppymill, so obviously they did not do bile acid testing I asked for the vets to do a BAT on him when he was 4-5 months old when I got him, but the vet was not knowledgable about liver shunt/mvd, so she refused to do this test on him...Then, we had him tested a few months later by a different vet and found out that he does have liver disease. He is now 3 1/2 yrs old __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

01-17-2008, 11:27 AM	#9
Sugar's Mom Currently Suspended! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 7,148	i don't do it on my puppies. But my adult dogs have all had it done when a few months old. My vet refuses to do it because of the fasting. he wouldn't do it on Ceeby at ten weeks old and now won't do it on my puppies. he is well aware that there are tests that can be done without fasting them but these tests usually require a repeat test at a few months old so it is just better in his opinion to wait until they are old enough and weigh enough that fasting isn't an issue and get a more accurate test. According to him, not me.

01-17-2008, 12:48 PM	#10
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,436	I have read that 6 months of age is optimal but can be done on pups as young as 9 weeks, again without the fast just pre and post....But it's important that it be the regular serum bile acid test NOT the IDEXX snap or the urine test. __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

01-17-2008, 12:48 PM	#11
MyTrixie143 Mom to 6 Beautiful Furkids Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,924	I have the parents tested but at this time the pups are not tested. My vet is still use to the method of them fasting for 12 hours. I told them it was no longer required but until they have done more research into, they refuse to do the test without the fasting and I don't want a puppy to go on a 12 hour fast. I am hoping they will change their method soon. __________________ A dog is a furry person! http://www.dogster.com/?300866 Tracey & the gang Destiny Scampers Harmony Brownie Buster Trixie~Sugar~Peppi~Daisy

01-17-2008, 03:00 PM	#12
txshopper73 Donating YT 14K Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Victoria, Texas Posts: 14,029 Blog Entries: 1	Well, I've talked to two vets this week. One vet suggested waiting until 5-6 months of age before the testing is done and the other (my vet) said that they could do it as soon as 8 weeks of age and they do the fasting method but to keep an eye on the pups for hypoglycemia. __________________ As always...JMO (Just My Opinion) Kimberley Gracie, London and Dallas

01-19-2008, 08:36 PM	#13
MyFairLacy Donating YT 8000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: College Station, TX Posts: 8,867	I highly doubt Lacy was tested for anything before leaving her breeder. She was bought for me by my best friend. I decided to look back at the "contract" that came with her and saw there was only a 48 hour health guarantee LOL I don't think I have looked at that piece of paper since I got her. I feel very fortunate that she hasn't had any serious health problems, not to say she could develop one in the future...she does have LP in both her legs..with her right leg being the worst..but it hasn't bothered her yet. Anyway...back to LS testing... When I buy my next yorkie I want the breeder I buy from to have tested all her dogs for LS to make sure they are clear before breeding. I'm not sure at this time if I will insist that the puppy I buy be bile acid tested or not before I bring it home...I'm thinking that I will probably want it to be though. In any case, I would definitely have a full blood workup done and bile acid testing done before my puppy is spayed. __________________ Purchasing from backyard breeders, pet shops, and puppymills perpetuates the suffering of other dogs. Educate yourself and buy from reputable breeders or rescue.

01-19-2008, 09:03 PM	#15
Ladymom Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,954	The bile acid test was developed at Cornell by Dr. Center. They wrote the initial protocol and have since updated it. This is taken from Page 5 of the handout Dr. Center gives out at her seminars: 7. Random "Fasting" Bile Acids ARE NOT reliable for RULING OUT liver dysfunction or abnormal portal circulation. Rather, you need PAIRED SAMPLES AROUND A MEAL. We no longer collect 12-hr fasting bile acids but instead collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a meal (post-meal or postprandial)." (all emphasis was added by Dr. Center) This is from Page 22: 2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established. Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... " (all emphasis added by Dr. Center) Since Yorkies are thirty-six times more likely to have a liver shunt than all other breeds combined, I can't imagine why a breeder would not have a BAT done or a buyer insist that it be done before the puppy goes home. 12 hour fasting is no longer required and the test is so inexpensive. Sadly, just because the parents are clear doesn't mean they won't produce a puppy with liver disease. We have two puppies on our Maltese forum from reputable show breeders whose parents were clear, had a CBC done before they came home with normal ALT's who have both been diagnosed with liver disease since - one with a shunt, one with MVD. __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ High Quality Handmade Bows for the Pampered Pooch