This world we live in - Doom Prophets

[gemy]

A couple of weeks ago, I watched a documentary on the "Doom Prophets", very well I guess for me scarey, informative and interesting.

Did anyone see this special?

They had experts in the oil field, the hydro electric field, the agriculture field, and the for want of a better word the anthropolgy field.

The news is not good We are very very close to the tipping point on oil, likely to be reached in 10yrs to 20 yrs. The tipping point is a mathematic construct, that takes into account oil demand versus production, versus known oil reserves.

There according to these experts will be a sharp very sharp re-adjustment and a following downward turn in our standard of living.

Just imagine if gas for your car comes in at $3 to $4 a gallon? Fuel for your home tripled or quadrupled the cost? What would that mean to your lifestyle?

The world according to the agri expert is already 2 billion or so over what is the sustainable agricultural ideal.

WE are in a crisis that no-one not the least of which any of our leaders is willing to recognize or handle.

WE must look at our options, and understand that the tightening of our respective belts must happen.

We desperately need alternatives to oil, and yet the development of same will not be cheap. The delivery of same expensive.

When I was young the biggest threat was nuclear war, (not saying today there isn't a threat...just think of Pakistan or North Korea), but in reality the biggest threat to our survival is our consumption of finite resources, with nary a thought to the future.

Some very dark thoughts on a beautiful summer night.

[tjdmom]

Aren't we already there? I paid $3.85/gallon of gas today..... Yes, things are bad....

[Woogie Man]

Hi, Gail....no, I didn't see it , but it's along the same lines as the post of yours I responded to in the other thread.

On the energy front, I think there's some good news. Viable electric cars are just around the corner. For elctricity, we still mostly rely on coal , but I've seen a new technology that is already on the market, though not yet for home use. It's called the Bloom Box..check it out. Bloom Energy | Be The Solution

What worries me is the destruction of forests..our natural air cleaners. Also, the loss of habitat for so many animals and the complete extinction that looms for many.

I'm repeating myself from my other post, but growth for growth's sake is killing the planet. Why do we feel entitled to have so much stuff? Do we ever give a thought to what it takes to produce it and get it to us? The short answer is no, we don't.

I do think that global warming is very real and will show to be our biggest problem in years to come. It's not just energy consumption, either. It's tearing down woodlands, and building housing tracts and roads. I'm amazed that there's any argument as to whether it's real or not. Of course it's real!! Here's a little test for anyone. Go outside barefoot, put one foot on the grass and the other on the pavement. See the difference? Now multiply that by all the roads, parking lots and rooftops and you get an idea of man's footprint.

I'm probably about the same age as you and grew up worrying about nuclear war. It's now obvious that it's much more probable that we'll 'die the death of a thousand cuts' rather than nuclear annihilation.

The answers are obvious but difficult. We have to attain zero population growth and then dial back even further. There are just too many of us here. We also have to practice conservation on a level not yet seen. Here's a link that touches on that. How to Do Animal Rights. Human Overpoulation

Many of us bemoan what is happening to animals and the rain forests, but fail to see the part we play in this. The Western world is beginning to see the big picture, but the new wealth is in the developing world and frankly, they are on a tear to catch up in terms of development and consumption. I have no clue what's to come due to this new wrinkle in the picture. I don't think it will be pretty.

The problem is that it's a beautiful summer night and all seems well. Hard to visualize the cancer we have wrought upon the Earth from our insulated little worlds.

Okay, now everyone knows I'm crazy . My fear is that I will appear a little saner year by year.

[Jinger]

It really seems to me that we ARE on the verge of the majority or people really become aware of this crisis and changing their lifestyles for a better future. I just sense that as I see and hear things. I hope it occurs.
I suppose there are some that say the 2012 "premonitions" were about just this sort of thing...a "rebirth" of awareness and attitude, and especially our responsibilities, in this world.
It just has to happen...!

[gidget529]

We are paying 3.50 to 3.60 a gallon here in PA. UGH!!!

[Woogie Man]

WOA!! World Ovepopulation Awareness

The one process ongoing ... that will take millions of years to correct is the loss of genetic and species diversity by the destruction of natural habitats. This is the folly our descendants are least likely to forgive us.
E.O. Wilson

[gidget529]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

WOA!! World Ovepopulation Awareness

The one process ongoing ... that will take millions of years to correct is the loss of genetic and species diversity by the destruction of natural habitats. This is the folly our descendants are least likely to forgive us.
E.O. Wilson

It is sad to look back and wish our ancestors would have left herds of buffalo instead of hunting them to near extinction. There is a local rescue near us who is trying to help the mustangs that are being pushed out of their grazing lands.

[Lil Sis]

I agree. I worry what we are leaving to our children. My dh has a solar company and we drive a hybrid car. I know that is not enough.

I really believe we must get "off" oil. Solar, wind ..not not coal!!! Is a start

Thanks for sharing the information, I will try to find the documentary

[gracielove]

I guess these things all depend on what people want you to believe. While I believe in taking care of the planet I also believe in taking care of the humans on the planet. The United States has enough oil still un drilled to last 100 years at the current rate of consumption. We are not allowed to drill our own oil because of environmental issues so we are forced to buy oil from other countries. This system has enriched countries that perhaps were not ready to handle such wealth and they are now trying to destroy the west. I would much rather drill and use the oil we have in our own country while working on creating other methods of power. I think if we do not fall into the third world mentality that has been over taking our country we could come up with new methods of energy use.
We just launched the last space shuttle. Our country that used to lead the world in technology is now left hitching a ride with the Russians. Our educational system has fallen so much that we are ranked 18 out of 36 countries considered. What is going on here? Everything we buy these days is marked "made in China". Why? It seems our country, that used to be the world leader in just about everything, is crumbling from within. Are we going to just accept it or stand and say enough!

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I guess these things all depend on what people want you to believe. While I believe in taking care of the planet I also believe in taking care of the humans on the planet. The United States has enough oil still un drilled to last 100 years at the current rate of consumption. We are not allowed to drill our own oil because of environmental issues so we are forced to buy oil from other countries. This system has enriched countries that perhaps were not ready to handle such wealth and they are now trying to destroy the west. I would much rather drill and use the oil we have in our own country while working on creating other methods of power. I think if we do not fall into the third world mentality that has been over taking our country we could come up with new methods of energy use.
We just launched the last space shuttle. Our country that used to lead the world in technology is now left hitching a ride with the Russians. Our educational system has fallen so much that we are ranked 18 out of 36 countries considered. What is going on here? Everything we buy these days is marked "made in China". Why? It seems our country, that used to be the world leader in just about everything, is crumbling from within. Are we going to just accept it or stand and say enough!

I think we've reached a point where it doesn't matter what one believes...the consequences are real and are being made more obvious every day. Believing or not believing won't change the reality that we'll all face.

It is not true that the U.S. has that much oil. The only way you can come close to that figure is to include all the oil available by fracking, along with the Alaskan reserves and all the oil on the continental shelf. If you're not familiar with the process of fracking, just google 'risks of fracking for oil'. It's not the way we want to go.

While we do get some of our oil from the Middle East, most of what we import does not come from there. Here's the top 10 countries we import oil from:

1. Canada
2. Mexico
3. Saudi Arabia
4. Venezuela
5. Nigeria
6. Angola
7. Iraq
8. Algeria
9. United Kingdom
10. Brazil

I do agree with you about China. We are making them the new economic superpower and that's bad news for everybody. Politics aside, China doesn't care about how they produce things, only that it's done cheaply. They use dirty technology on a massive scale. Also, they are exploiting poor countries for their resources and that is having a huge negative environmental impact.

I want to add that I'm not some extremist. Caring for our environment is no longer some fringe issue, but is something we all must face. I have children and grandchildren and I'd like to see them have some sort of life as we have enjoyed. That won't be possible if we keep going the way we have been.

[Woogie Man]

I disagree with you on some of your points. Nothing wrong with that...lively discussions are great.

Sure, there is oil here to be drilled, but not the 100 year supply you mentioned earlier. And, for now, it's largely cheaper to buy it from someone else than do drill for it here. As the price goes up, more of it will be economically viable. I would still encourage you to research fracking, as that is what is included when oilmen talk about our 'recoverable' supply.

I'm not against offshore drilling, but rigs do more than spoil our view. I live in the area that was affected by the BP disaster. It did much more than spoil our view.

I understand about nuclear worries, but your statement is exaggerated. One bomb will not do all you say. We already have exploded 2 on cities in WW2 and have had many, many above ground nuclear test explosions. I certainly don't want to see a bomb get into the wrong hands, but there are other things that have caused more damage, both ecological and human. I remember the floods in Bangladesh that killed hundreds of thousands, famines in Ethiopia that killed untold numbers and the modern day genocides that have killed millions. And, to get back to the BP spill, we are still calculating the damage, but it's far greater than the PR being put out. That one spill has ruined much of the world's largest estuary (the breeding ground for much of the seafood we eat) for years to come.

I won't get into the other points as it might get more political than YT allows. I do feel, however, that it's not an either/or situation. We can provide for ourselves without raping the planet. I think that's where the focus should be. The ones that find good solutions will not only be preserving the planet, but will also reap huge economic rewards. That should be enough incentive to look beyond drilling our way out of the energy problems we now have.

The oil supply is but one of the issues we now face. We're running out of other things, as the OP mentioned. Managing our land and water resources are just as big, if not bigger, issues than filling up our gas tanks. The price at the pump is just the one we notice the most.

[Jinger]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I disagree with you on some of your points. Nothing wrong with that...lively discussions are great.

Sure, there is oil here to be drilled, but not the 100 year supply you mentioned earlier. And, for now, it's largely cheaper to buy it from someone else than do drill for it here. As the price goes up, more of it will be economically viable. I would still encourage you to research fracking, as that is what is included when oilmen talk about our 'recoverable' supply.

I'm not against offshore drilling, but rigs do more than spoil our view. I live in the area that was affected by the BP disaster. It did much more than spoil our view.

I understand about nuclear worries, but your statement is exaggerated. One bomb will not do all you say. We already have exploded 2 on cities in WW2 and have had many, many above ground nuclear test explosions. I certainly don't want to see a bomb get into the wrong hands, but there are other things that have caused more damage, both ecological and human. I remember the floods in Bangladesh that killed hundreds of thousands, famines in Ethiopia that killed untold numbers and the modern day genocides that have killed millions. And, to get back to the BP spill, we are still calculating the damage, but it's far greater than the PR being put out. That one spill has ruined much of the world's largest estuary (the breeding ground for much of the seafood we eat) for years to come.

I won't get into the other points as it might get more political than YT allows. I do feel, however, that it's not an either/or situation. We can provide for ourselves without raping the planet. I think that's where the focus should be. The ones that find good solutions will not only be preserving the planet, but will also reap huge economic rewards. That should be enough incentive to look beyond drilling our way out of the energy problems we now have.

The oil supply is but one of the issues we now face. We're running out of other things, as the OP mentioned. Managing our land and water resources are just as big, if not bigger, issues than filling up our gas tanks. The price at the pump is just the one we notice the most.

You are very impressive with your knowledge, ability to get your point across and your appreciation of open-minded debate and exchange of ideas. Very refreshing and enjoyable to read! Thank you.

I would add a couple of comments to what I read here on this thread:
1. It can be dangerous to condemn entire countries, religions or people. That is the very thing those who are training terrorists do and teach.
2. Alaska is probably the most beautiful place I have ever seen. To see and be in its undisturbed wilderness, peace and tranquility is a privilege I hope all have the opportunity to enjoy someday.
3. As someone with a painful and trying chronic disease that many scientists believe is connected to the increase of toxins in our world and food supply, I truly hope that damaging practices such as fracking can be minimized so that we do not all still have to pay the ultimate price...just slowly.
4. That said, I certainly don't have answers, but hope that those who do figure them out are, indeed, rewarded greatly!!

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by gemy

A couple of weeks ago, I watched a documentary on the "Doom Prophets", very well I guess for me scarey, informative and interesting.

Did anyone see this special?

They had experts in the oil field, the hydro electric field, the agriculture field, and the for want of a better word the anthropolgy field.

The news is not good We are very very close to the tipping point on oil, likely to be reached in 10yrs to 20 yrs. The tipping point is a mathematic construct, that takes into account oil demand versus production, versus known oil reserves.

There according to these experts will be a sharp very sharp re-adjustment and a following downward turn in our standard of living.

Just imagine if gas for your car comes in at $3 to $4 a gallon? Fuel for your home tripled or quadrupled the cost? What would that mean to your lifestyle?

The world according to the agri expert is already 2 billion or so over what is the sustainable agricultural ideal.

WE are in a crisis that no-one not the least of which any of our leaders is willing to recognize or handle.

WE must look at our options, and understand that the tightening of our respective belts must happen.

We desperately need alternatives to oil, and yet the development of same will not be cheap. The delivery of same expensive.

When I was young the biggest threat was nuclear war, (not saying today there isn't a threat...just think of Pakistan or North Korea), but in reality the biggest threat to our survival is our consumption of finite resources, with nary a thought to the future.

Some very dark thoughts on a beautiful summer night.

Your post and this discussion have really inspired me to really think about all of these sad realities. Both you and Woogieman never fail to impress me with your intellectual discussions and your love and devotion to animals. Thank you Jim and Gail. You are both an asset and inspiration to this forum.

[gracielove]

I have no desire to continue this discussion except to say the deep water drilling is a very dangerous adventure. There is far less chance of such accidents happening in wells that are not drilled at such extreme depths.
I never condemned a whole religion or country. I said that those who do not agree with such beliefs are not the ones in charge in Iran. There are moderates in every culture, unfortunately, it is those who go to the extreme who have the control of the country at the moment.
I don't believe that you seriously think that an nuclear bomb is less harmful to the environment than an oil well accident. Yes, we have done nuclear testing miles underground but that is not what would be done in a war in the middle east. Millions will die and all oil supply will be cut off. Now that is quite a bit of doom in my mind.
Business and industry as well as the millions of people who live in this country cannot exist on electricity that is generated only by wind mills and solar power. At this point in history we are dependent on fossil fuels.People need jobs and jobs are produced by business and industry. We need paychecks to buy our food, clothing and shelter. We need technology that goes far beyond wind mills and solar power to move this country into a productive stature that does not depend on fossil fuels.
Maybe the minds that once sent people into space can now find methods that will produce the kind of power fossil fuels do. I hope so because our lives depend on it. I live in the north and millions would die here and in other countries without electricity. It's sad but I think that is exactly what some environmentalists would like since they feel that the existence of too many humans is hurting the planet. Human beings will always be more important than the ground they walk on. I'm sorry you feel we should stop reproducing. I am expecting a new grand child soon and I believe you said you have some grandchildren as well. How you expect to attain 0 population growth with our loved ones giving birth is beyond me. Are we supposed to just decide to eliminate certain populations? It seems you have decided we are killing our planet and yet we have this problem in that people are still reproducing and thriving on this dying planet. Very thoughtless of us. Living and reproducing on a dying planet. Inconsiderate of us indeed.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I have no desire to continue this discussion except to say the deep water drilling is a very dangerous adventure. There is far less chance of such accidents happening in wells that are not drilled at such extreme depths. The idea of near shore drilling has been looked at. There are obvious risks to that, though different than deep well drilling. Here's something from when it was being considered for the Florida Gulf Coast. http://www.lwvfla.org/pdf_files/dril...um%20final.pdf

I never condemned a whole religion or country. I said that those who do not agree with such beliefs are not the ones in charge in Iran. There are moderates in every culture, unfortunately, it is those who go to the extreme who have the control of the country at the moment. I'm not gonna touch that one.

I don't believe that you seriously think that an nuclear bomb is less harmful to the environment than an oil well accident. Yes, we have done nuclear testing miles underground but that is not what would be done in a war in the middle east. Millions will die and all oil supply will be cut off. Now that is quite a bit of doom in my mind. There have been over 300 ABOVE ground nuclear tests. I didn't say a nuclear bomb's damage was less than 1 oil well accident. It could or could not be, depending on specifics. You said earlier that 1 nuclear bomb would create more damage than all oil wells ever could. That is what I responded to.

Business and industry as well as the millions of people who live in this country cannot exist on electricity that is generated only by wind mills and solar power. At this point in history we are dependent on fossil fuels.People need jobs and jobs are produced by business and industry. We need paychecks to buy our food, clothing and shelter. We need technology that goes far beyond wind mills and solar power to move this country into a productive stature that does not depend on fossil fuels. Actually, solar power could go a long way, but no one technology is going to be the magic bullet. I've seen where some plants are actually running off incinerated garbage. The technologies are here...the political will isn't. Given the right incentives (not subsidies), these technologies could compete in the marketplace.

Maybe the minds that once sent people into space can now find methods that will produce the kind of power fossil fuels do. I hope so because our lives depend on it. I live in the north and millions would die here and in other countries without electricity. It's sad but I think that is exactly what some environmentalists would like since they feel that the existence of too many humans is hurting the planet. Human beings will always be more important than the ground they walk on.

I'm sorry you feel we should stop reproducing. I am expecting a new grand child soon and I believe you said you have some grandchildren as well. How you expect to attain 0 population growth with our loved ones giving birth is beyond me. Are we supposed to just decide to eliminate certain populations? It seems you have decided we are killing our planet and yet we have this problem in that people are still reproducing and thriving on this dying planet. Very thoughtless of us. Living and reproducing on a dying planet. Inconsiderate of us indeed. What zero population growth means, simply put, is that 2 people produce 2 people. My wife and I had 2 children. My oldest has had 2 and then a vasectomy. My youngest hasn't had any and his wife is having trouble conceiving. So my family is lagging a bit but we won't be ADDING to the population. And yes, people are reproducing, the population is growing, but many are far from thriving. The latest data shows 1 in 7 people goes hungry. 2011 World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics by World Hunger Education Service

This subject really goes much further than our energy supply. It's about an increasing population, the choices they make and the impact it has on the planet. When you're talking about a population of 7 billion, little choices can make a huge impact. Shoot, just going by the U.S. population, you're talking about 300 million, so we can't just la-ti-da through life anymore, thinking that it doesn't matter.