Breeding without showing?

[PinkMartini]

Ok I have a feeling this post might end up being a debate, but I truly am curious. Especially after seeing the thread that says that almost half of the people who voted would/will breed their dog(s).

Those who don't ever plan on showing your dogs, why would you breed your dog(s)? Is it just to have one litter to keep a pup from your beloved dog? Is it to make money?

Showing does not make a reputable breeder, but not showing is a red flag to find someone else.

A representative sample of the breeder's dogs should be shown to their championship to have other opinions about the dog's quality. Showing is all about evaluating for breeding quality. I know of a few older breeders who don't title their own dogs but sell a representative sample of the breeding program to people who do show. These are older people who have been in the breed for a number of years.

IMO, the only reason to breed it to improve the breed. If you are not showing and learning about structure, your sole opinion on the dog's quality doesn't mean a whole lot. I want multiple opinions and I want a breeder who understands what they are putting together and how it functions.

(And I really don't want to start a fight or offend anyone here. I'm truly just curious about those who don't have the same opinion as me)

[StewiesMom]

I hope I can form a structured opinion here:

Breeding dogs is a hobby to me. Not a hobby I am into, but a hobby nonetheless. I would never breed Stewie, even if he were "perfect" or close to it. If he were a perfect specimen of the breed and I had a great female to compliment him I might. I would be interested in getting into breeding in the future, but I could never see myself showing dogs. I enjoy watching them on TV or in person, but it's not really "my scene"

[Harbinger]

Not sure how this fits here but I wont buy a puppy that doesn't have Champion parents on both sides and the breeder needs to have a good reputation/success on the show circuit. Ok, I know it doesn't mean I'm getting a perfect pup but I think it helps.

[PinkMartini]

Originally Posted by Harbinger

Not sure how this fits here but I wont buy a puppy that doesn't have Champion parents on both sides and the breeder needs to have a good reputation/success on the show circuit. Ok, I know it doesn't mean I'm getting a perfect pup but I think it helps.

That's how I feel and what I've heard other people say. And I don't know anyone that would buy from a byb.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Summer:

Wonderful idea for a thread. We can discuss this on this forum but I would hesitate to address it on others. I know that you and I don't agree, but her goes. Thanks for understanding that I mean no offense and this is JMO.

I agree with Stewie's mom. Showing dogs (any breed) in conformation is a hobby and has very little, IMO, to do with "improving the things about the breed" that I find the most important. I love the yorkie look, but I love chocolate and piebald as much as the traditional black and tan for instance. I love an undocked tail and disapprove of cosmetic surgery on dogs.

I disapprove of the practice of judging any living being primarily on the basis of outward appearance. I love obedience and agility shows because I feel there is great everyday value in the safety and enjoyability (is that a word) of an animal who is "trained" and has a bond with the one who trained him/her. Conformation show dogs look bored and have to sit still and not play for fear of messing up their coats, etc. This is not what dogs are for IMO.

I disapprove of the practice of "culling" perfectly healthy puppies because they don't meet the "breed standard" as written by the AKC and the YTCA. Those entities really do nothing to protect dogs from inhumane treatment and exist solely to serve the whims of those who care about conformation showing. They are not the "law" as some people think when it comes to dogs.

I appreciate the reputable breeders who care about temperament and eliminating hereditary health issues but I have found that most casual, non-show breeders also feel this way and even more so in some instances because they do not care about the perfect "structure".

The majority of people want a companion pet in thier yorkie and they want a small dog they can travel with and love unconditionally. This is why I think the smaller yorkies are so popular right now. I don't believe it is an accessory or a status symbol for most people who want them. I believe that those people truly love dogs and their lifestyles are just more condusive to having a small dog that can be with them all the time than a large dogs with travel limitations. Maybe I am naive but I don't think so. Our own membership seems to prove this.

I could speak on this subject for a long time, but I am going to a barbeque so I have to go, but I will read what everyone else says and add more later.

[Marlee]

I know many people claim they will not buy from a backyard breeder, but the fact is a lot of us probably have. I was looking at another post where people were comparing pricing. 500 at most for a pet, and 2000 for a show dog etc. I am sorry but most show greeders do not sell pups for 500, heck I cant even find a dog without papers for that price in my area. In fact around my average price for a PET yorkie is 800-1000. My Bridget I got lucky on, the breeder had a good reputation, had not shown but was considering it. She had champiions on both sides and the breeder did have pups that went into a show ring. I paid 1500.00 for a possible show dog.
Now I am looking to show, and I will not breed just for the heck of it, I will breed only if my yorkies are of good quality and my mentor agrees with me.
However I am not going to knock anyone for buying a dog from someone that doesnt show. Sorry but if you want to pay 500 for a dog, it is most likely going to be from a backyard breeder. That is just a fact. Do i agree with in, no, but it happens and putting out there how you would never buy a dog from these places can hurt peoples feeling on these boards.


People can say a lot of things, esp in this type of forum, truths, half truths, we never really know. I just dont want to hurt anyones feeling. There will always be BYB,, becasue there is a demand for this breed, unfortunate yes, but a fact none the less.

[PinkMartini]

Originally Posted by Marlee

Do i agree with in, no, but it happens and putting out there how you would never buy a dog from these places can hurt peoples feeling on these boards.


People can say a lot of things, esp in this type of forum, truths, half truths, we never really know. I just dont want to hurt anyones feeling. There will always be BYB,, becasue there is a demand for this breed, unfortunate yes, but a fact none the less.

I agree that there will always be byb, unfortunately but how am I hurting anyone's feelings by stating I wouldn't support a byb? Are there byb's here that I'm not aware of? Am I supposed to lie & say I would?

[StewiesMom]

Marlee - I totally agree with you about pricing, but I'd just like to add that Stewie was about $500. He is AKC w/ Ch on both sides, BUT... he has a white diamond on his chest and a LOT of white on his paws. His ears were floppy (later found out it was because he had an ear infection, but that's another story in itself) -- so I got a discount. His brothers/sisters were 800 - 1200. He is within the size standard (5.25-5.5lbs at 6mos) and I think that is a huge concern to most buyers.



Response: are there BYBs here?
I think so. There's people who consider breeding and don't do any research besides asking a few questions on here.

[PinkMartini]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I disapprove of the practice of "culling" perfectly healthy puppies because they don't meet the "breed standard" as written by the AKC and the YTCA. Those entities really do nothing to protect dogs from inhumane treatment and exist solely to serve the whims of those who care about conformation showing. They are not the "law" as some people think when it comes to dogs.

I totally can appreciate your opinion. Thanks for stating it I must comment though, on the above paragraph. I have never met/heard of a breeder 'culling' puppies and would be horrified at the thought. All of the breeders I've talked to have always just sold puppies to pet homes, if they didn't fit the standard. I can't imagine people in this day & age killing perfectly healthy puppies.

[PinkMartini]

Originally Posted by Marlee

500 at most for a pet, and 2000 for a show dog etc. I am sorry but most show greeders do not sell pups for 500, heck I cant even find a dog without papers for that price in my area.

In your area, being the key term here. Here in Ca it is hard to find a yorkie from a reputable breeder for less than $1000. But while searching for Bailey I ran across a few breeders who show who sold pet quality pups for less.

[Marlee]

Honestly yes i bet there probably are BYB's here, or more than that people who have bought from them. I am not saying that stating you wont support them is nessisarly a bad thing, but it could hurt an owners feelings making them think they did something wrong by buying such a dog. Or that the have a less than quality yorkie, which may or may not be the case. I just hope that people read this and realize that there are other ways, but for some esp when it comes to finaces it is easier to come up with 500 versus 1000.

I just dont want people to think badly about their dogs, I am greatfull at least the most of these Yorkies are finding good homes.

I also think the importian point to make is we need to educate people about the hazards of buying from a breeder that is not of good quality. BYB will always be around, they supply many of the yorkie lovers out there with pets, heck, I bet that is where sites like Diva pup .com and other brokers get their animals from. I also think with the right education we can turn a BYB in to a good quality breeder, if they have the desire to do so. If it is about money, there is no talking to them. I actully met a lady here that breed her dog to pay off her credit card debt! How awful!

[PinkMartini]

Originally Posted by Marlee

Honestly yes i bet there probably are BYB's here, or more than that people who have bought from them. I am not saying that stating you wont support them is nessisarly a bad thing, but it could hurt an owners feelings making them think they did something wrong by buying such a dog. Or that the have a less than quality yorkie, which may or may not be the case. I just hope that people read this and realize that there are other ways, but for some esp when it comes to finaces it is easier to come up with 500 versus 1000.

I just dont want people to think badly about their dogs, I am greatfull at least the most of these Yorkies are finding good homes.

I also think the importian point to make is we need to educate people about the hazards of buying from a breeder that is not of good quality. BYB will always be around, they supply many of the yorkie lovers out there with pets, heck, I bet that is where sites like Diva pup .com and other brokers get their animals from. I also think with the right education we can turn a BYB in to a good quality breeder, if they have the desire to do so. If it is about money, there is no talking to them. I actully met a lady here that breed her dog to pay off her credit card debt! How awful!

I totally agree. Thanks for explaining it that way I don't mean for my opinion to offend anyone, it's just that - an opinion.

[aimee]

I am considering breeding many years down the road. For now, two kids and two dogs is enough and I'll want to have had experience in showing as well as a good mentor before I even think of beginning to breed.

For now, I am enjoying learning about Yorkies, their health and temperment, and of course being owned by them. I feel that having them as my pets and companions ONLY for awhile will help me make the best decision when it comes that time to figure out if breeding is something I would like to do.

But in answer to your question, no I personally would not breed without showing.

[ttreatsyorkies]

Everyone seems to be throwing around the back yard breeder term pretty freely. What exactly is considered to be a back yard breeder. I my self have bred my yorkie. Is she a show dog? No. I bred her to a male that was a compatible sample, he has champion lines. Neither are show dogs, but both have some beautiful features.
I use to work in a vet clinic in Dallas Tx, and we had many Show Breeders come in. Some of their dogs were beautiful, but a lot were not that healthy. THeir immunities were lower, and they tended to be more frail. I am not saying all show dogs are that way. Just from what I have seen in person.
Lets not forget that not every dog born in a litter of show champions is going to come out show quality. It is in their genes to be either, regardless of how much you try to breed out the bad. So why couldn't two dogs that are beautiful and have excellent stature be bred. AS long as the breeder looked into the genes to rule out any abnormalities, and they were not breeding with in the same gene pool.
THere are many nonshow breeders that love and care for their pups and they breed their dogs to good quality dogs. Yes there are bad too. There are also bad show Breeders out there. Unless we are there 24 seven we can never gaurantee that things are done properly. All we have to go on is research and instinct where both types of breeders are concerned.
A big part of having a show dog is the way they look. Looks are hereditary but not always does a non show quality dog mean that it is not a quality dog.
I don't think people put enough time into researching before breeding, but we have to remember that even if you research everything possible you can't control everything.
I hope I did not offend, I am just tired and might not have written clearly enough. Great debate though.

[PinkMartini]

Originally Posted by ttreatsyorkies

Everyone seems to be throwing around the back yard breeder term pretty freely. What exactly is considered to be a back yard breeder.

I would have to say I agree with everything on this chart:

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

BYB vs. Responsible Breeder