Wanted - VERY small girl to buy!

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by FlyingNimbus

Some animals don't even have that evolved of a brain to even notice it... Do you think a tarantula knows what an enclosure is?

I don't know...does it...? Does a human baby know what love is...? No. Does the baby still need it to thrive..? Generally speaking, yes. I don't think it's much different with respect to other creatures. Ya know what I mean? It doesn't matter what they "know" (and btw, this "knowing" is a human trait you're projecting onto the spider, we can't expect a spider to "know" in the way that our species does).

Who knows, really? Certainly not us. That's what I'm really saying here. Sometimes we humans can be species-centric, at the expense of other creatures. I merely think it's important to be honest/open and very careful about any assumptions we make about other living beings.

It's all really interesting to me - I totally do get what you're saying, I just see it a bit differently perhaps. I like that you enjoy discussing this kind of thing though !

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[canana]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I don't know...does it...? Does a human baby know what love is...? No. Does the baby still need it to thrive..? Generally speaking, yes. I don't think it's much different with respect to other creatures. Ya know what I mean? It doesn't matter what they "know" (and btw, this "knowing" is a human trait you're projecting onto the spider, we can't expect a spider to "know" in the way that our species does).

Who knows, really? Certainly not us. That's what I'm really saying here. Sometimes we humans can be species-centric, at the expense of other creatures. I merely think it's important to be honest/open and very careful about any assumptions we make about other living beings.

It's all really interesting to me - I totally do get what you're saying, I just see it a bit differently perhaps. I like that you enjoy discussing this kind of thing though !

Save

I also love how the discussion is going into a deeper realm of nature versus mankind. It is interesting isn't it, how on one hand there's the evolved human who has studied life on this planet, trying to understand everything; and then on the other hand, there's nature and how things are just as it is.

It's true, that if an animal has always been kept captive, say indoors (for my own ease of mind, let's say not in a cage its entire life), they'd never know any better about the outside world. But that could also be said about human beings, no? Say for example, those children who were kidnapped and unnaturally conditioned by the kidnapper who told them 'the outside world is dangerous' (I know, I've been watching too much TV) and they need to stay indoors for their own safety. But just like animals, for us humans it's our natural instinct to want to explore the natural outdoors. It gives us all a sense of pleasure and happiness.

But mankind, has changed it all. We've domesticated animals. We've determined that some living beings 'feel no pain' or 'know' certain things. We've developed a science to prove (and disprove) such things. Who's to say what's right or wrong. But, I do feel that with each change, we really need to think things through and fight for what seems to be right or wrong.

When we domesticated dogs and cats, as long as we respect their life and their existence and they're happy and healthy, it actually became a nice loving mutual relationship. Knowing that dogs are our friends, it's so cruel to learn that horrible people keep dogs in captive, torturing them, eating them, breeding them, it's just so wrong. When those unethical people are now breeding tiny 3lb dogs, using c-section surgeries to produce smaller puppies, risking the mommy dog's lives' and creating unhealthy, unnatural deformed-looking puppies with internal organs the size of a pea that aren't functional, just to satisfy the teacup trend, it's SO wrong.

Sadly, we humans are terribly, overly selfish. Just as the way we treat the planet, destroying all the natural resources, creating pollution by supporting large manufacturers and those countries that create cheaper product. The fact that people cannot breathe in China is a HUGE sign we're doing something wrong. The fact that most of the population of this planet has no fresh water is a sign we're doing something wrong. None of it is natural.

Isn't it ironic how as the smartest beings on the planet, we're the ones destroying it? Or maybe, that is also part of our 'nature'.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by canana

Sadly, we humans are terribly, overly selfish. Just as the way we treat the planet, destroying all the natural resources, creating pollution by supporting large manufacturers and those countries that create cheaper product. The fact that people cannot breathe in China is a HUGE sign we're doing something wrong. The fact that most of the population of this planet has no fresh water is a sign we're doing something wrong. None of it is natural.

Isn't it ironic how as the smartest beings on the planet, we're the ones destroying it? Or maybe, that is also part of our 'nature'.

Your whole post was so great - but I had to bold / point-out a couple things...bravo! Totally agree. We are such species-centrists, causing us our own demise - it's so ironic really!

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[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I don't know...does it...? Does a human baby know what love is...? No. Does the baby still need it to thrive..? Generally speaking, yes. I don't think it's much different with respect to other creatures. Ya know what I mean? It doesn't matter what they "know" (and btw, this "knowing" is a human trait you're projecting onto the spider, we can't expect a spider to "know" in the way that our species does).

Who knows, really? Certainly not us. That's what I'm really saying here. Sometimes we humans can be species-centric, at the expense of other creatures. I merely think it's important to be honest/open and very careful about any assumptions we make about other living beings.

It's all really interesting to me - I totally do get what you're saying, I just see it a bit differently perhaps. I like that you enjoy discussing this kind of thing though !

Save

Late reply, sorry about that.


Anyways, you're right it is projecting. There is no way to know if the tarantula likes it or not.

However, from behavioral observation one can assume it's adequate or not. Unlike humans, animals are easy to understand if they like or dislike something- or if they happen to not be happy somewhere.

My friends tarantula, like most of her kind sit there and do nothing- conserving energy. Grooming itself occasionally, eating insects whenever. She has a larger than normal enclosure. She is a rosy tarantula(a small docile species), she is taken out often to "roam". She seems quite content from her behavior. I feel as if personality is a thing reserved for more complex creatures- I maybe wrong, but what I am trying to say if all of them act the same way one can use that as a guide line for their husbandry care.

She also has a rabbit she rescued from her parking lot(she lives in apartments) it's a netherland dwarf. The rabbit has a big cage, and spends most of the time in it when she's not around- but anytime she is around she leaves the cage door open and he has free room of the "house".

He will play, frolic, jump(popcorn), and eat for most of that time he's out. But after a few hours of play he goes back to his cage on his own and sleeps.

So from that one could say there are examples where some animals may think of their cages as a home/safe zone.


Now there are animals that maybe so small and yet would never truly be happy in an enclosure. Example of that is the bog turtle-- a very rare and endangered small species of turtle that basically likes to roam.

You may be right, it maybe the case that no animal is okay with being caged- even the rabbit, or her tarantula.


But consider that some animals maybe better suited for captivity. For example, a spider rarely ever leaves their nest/corner(well not counting wolf spiders, or huntsmen spiders or species like that) do you think if the nest was moved inside an enclosure with more than enough space to move from the nest and explore would be bad?


I might have been projecting, but you yourself are projecting your emotions onto them as neither you nor I can 100% know what that animal is even thinking.

P.s. be aware that for a lot of animals in captivity their chances of survival outside of captivity is a lot less than one in captivity.. plus for the most part captivity increases their lifespan. A lion in a zoo probably lives significantly longer lives than one in the wild.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by canana

I also love how the discussion is going into a deeper realm of nature versus mankind. It is interesting isn't it, how on one hand there's the evolved human who has studied life on this planet, trying to understand everything; and then on the other hand, there's nature and how things are just as it is.

It's true, that if an animal has always been kept captive, say indoors (for my own ease of mind, let's say not in a cage its entire life), they'd never know any better about the outside world. But that could also be said about human beings, no? Say for example, those children who were kidnapped and unnaturally conditioned by the kidnapper who told them 'the outside world is dangerous' (I know, I've been watching too much TV) and they need to stay indoors for their own safety. But just like animals, for us humans it's our natural instinct to want to explore the natural outdoors. It gives us all a sense of pleasure and happiness.

But mankind, has changed it all. We've domesticated animals. We've determined that some living beings 'feel no pain' or 'know' certain things. We've developed a science to prove (and disprove) such things. Who's to say what's right or wrong. But, I do feel that with each change, we really need to think things through and fight for what seems to be right or wrong.

When we domesticated dogs and cats, as long as we respect their life and their existence and they're happy and healthy, it actually became a nice loving mutual relationship. Knowing that dogs are our friends, it's so cruel to learn that horrible people keep dogs in captive, torturing them, eating them, breeding them, it's just so wrong. When those unethical people are now breeding tiny 3lb dogs, using c-section surgeries to produce smaller puppies, risking the mommy dog's lives' and creating unhealthy, unnatural deformed-looking puppies with internal organs the size of a pea that aren't functional, just to satisfy the teacup trend, it's SO wrong.

Sadly, we humans are terribly, overly selfish. Just as the way we treat the planet, destroying all the natural resources, creating pollution by supporting large manufacturers and those countries that create cheaper product. The fact that people cannot breathe in China is a HUGE sign we're doing something wrong. The fact that most of the population of this planet has no fresh water is a sign we're doing something wrong. None of it is natural.

Isn't it ironic how as the smartest beings on the planet, we're the ones destroying it? Or maybe, that is also part of our 'nature'.

Intelligence and greed never go hand in hand.

As for the arguments that dog is happier in captivity than in the wild. That's projecting, and it's relative. A dog derived from the wolf. Wolves are pack animals, our "love" is not the same as "theirs". Why do I say this? Because really who are we to say what they feel exactly? My point is, saying it's okay to keep dogs/cats and things of the like but not something like say a fish is being a bit biased. I guess we're all biased I will admit.

While you may not think it, a house to a dog is essentially a cage- no way out unless we allow it. We don't allow our dogs to roam free outside of their "cages" without supervision- so technically a dog isn't that different from a fish. As both have limited freedom.

A cage only sounds bad because we associate a cage with things like jail, or dogs being stuffed into a small crate all day, or a bird in a small cage.


For their safety we keep our dogs "caged", and for our benefit.


You went on to mention 3lb dogs are unnatural, which you know is true. However domestication is in itself "unnatural", it messes with "natural selection".

Did you know some species of ants participate in "domestication"? They keep aphids alive, feed them, protect them in exchange for their sugary concoction they produce which is harvested by the ants. The aphids are not allowed to the areas they are kept (usually on a plant), their wings are chewed off but the aphids stay without any problem and the ants in exchange protect them from predators.

The aphid doesn't seem to have a problem, neither does the ant.

So do you think that a cow does either? (well a dairy cow- not one being sent to the slaughter). Does the rancher?

What about dogs? We exchange our services for their affections, but when and where do we draw the line then?


The point I am trying to make is that there is no straight path, there are many paths. Some darker than the others, it is up to us to see which is appropriate and which isn't.

I can't 100% say that keeping a fish in an aquarium is a good thing because they are kept safe, healthy and usually free of predators. Their offsprings are likelier to make it to adulthood than their wild counterparts.


Domestication is a funny thing. People say it has something to do with evolution- but you go on telling that to the ants who keep the aphids which weren't evolved for that.

Humans maybe intelligent, but they can sometimes be irrational, blind sighted, ignorant, and over all belligerent.


As for those who keep dogs for food in other countries. I've come to realize, that yes what they do is mostly unacceptable. The torture, cramped spaces, animals being treated as objects.

However a dog being used as a source of food isn't really something you, or I have any say in if it's bad or good.

Because you wanna know something? To the hindu the cow (and any cow related animal I think) is a very sacred animal. To them, you do not eat, molest(bother/annoy), torture it.

Currently in many parts of india there has been ongoing riots, and overzealous groups of hindus who have been killing people transporting cows to the slaughter. In their words, the cow is a hindu woman or something like that.

Yet we eat cows(don't deny it, unless you're 100% vegetarian or hindu you eat cow or have eaten cows before), should we be punished for what the hindus believe is a crime and a religious sacrilege?

What about those from some asian countries that raise dogs or cats for their meat? Should they be punished as well? But if they're punished for that, shouldn't we be punished for doing the same to other animals?


What about those in poor south american countries where poverty is so high, that the lack of food is abundant-- in those countries people resort to eating dogs, cats, and whatever animal they can find. To them it's not a matter if it's cute or sad. It's a matter of life and death. Do those get punished as well for simply trying to live the next day?


There is no set right, or wrong. To us eating a dog, or cat is sacrilege (sort of), to the hindu eating beef is sacrilege, to the jews and the muslims I believe eating pork is sacrilege. (Maybe wrong about the last two -- I don't know much about them just from what I recall).

What is right and wrong to me could be opposite to your neighbor.

See it's all relative. There is no exact "right" or "Wrong" only what we make of it, and what each of us do with it.

For some "wrong" is necessary and is "right".

Morality is a tricky thing you see, and a slippery slope.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Your whole post was so great - but I had to bold / point-out a couple things...bravo! Totally agree. We are such species-centrists, causing us our own demise - it's so ironic really!

Save

It's true, we are destroying our planet-- but you know there's other animals that do that too placed in the wrong environment.


The cane toad(one of my favorite amphibians mostly because of it's bold attitude), is actually a rather dangerous invasive species which is destroying certain habitats/environments. I think in Australia there is a cane toad problem. Same with south US... But then again these were introduced by people-- but there are other animals that just drifted from place to place without our help.

[Ares55]

Well I have my first bad news...

The breeder who has the little boy we were going to buy just told me he's spoken for, which is really strange and disappointing because I sent an email almost two weeks ago saying we wanted him and would fly out to meet with her and see him. I never got a response back and tonight when I asked how he was doing she said he was taken. I have a feeling that she didn't want us to fly out and see her kennel and if that's the case I'm happy with passing and not giving her our money. I'm so upset and we feel so let down. We were both so excited to have found what we thought was a good kennel here and to get a little boy. I'd already named him Scuderia Veloce which translates loosely to "fast racing team" in Italian. This was going to be his "thoroughbred" name like the horses get, but his daily nickname was going to be Scooter.

So, I'm back on the market and looking for a little boy. We had a children's animal fair here over the weekend and there was a puppy petting pen and inside was a cute little yorkie boy. He looked about a year or two old and had a great face and all of the dogs were adoptable. I passed his information along to my friend looking to get a yorkie pal for her Bichon rescue she just got but if she doesn't take him I think I'll ask for a meeting with him.

Our little Korean girl goes to our private vet appointment tomorrow night (Thursday in Korea) and I'm hoping for good news. If all goes well she will be flying on the 25th. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she's perfectly healthy and can come home. If we end up not being able to get her too I think I'd be pretty devastated.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Ares55

Well I have my first bad news...

The breeder who has the little boy we were going to buy just told me he's spoken for, which is really strange and disappointing because I sent an email almost two weeks ago saying we wanted him and would fly out to meet with her and see him. I never got a response back and tonight when I asked how he was doing she said he was taken. I have a feeling that she didn't want us to fly out and see her kennel and if that's the case I'm happy with passing and not giving her our money. I'm so upset and we feel so let down. We were both so excited to have found what we thought was a good kennel here and to get a little boy. I'd already named him Scuderia Veloce which translates loosely to "fast racing team" in Italian. This was going to be his "thoroughbred" name like the horses get, but his daily nickname was going to be Scooter.

So, I'm back on the market and looking for a little boy. We had a children's animal fair here over the weekend and there was a puppy petting pen and inside was a cute little yorkie boy. He looked about a year or two old and had a great face and all of the dogs were adoptable. I passed his information along to my friend looking to get a yorkie pal for her Bichon rescue she just got but if she doesn't take him I think I'll ask for a meeting with him.

Our little Korean girl goes to our private vet appointment tomorrow night (Thursday in Korea) and I'm hoping for good news. If all goes well she will be flying on the 25th. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she's perfectly healthy and can come home. If we end up not being able to get her too I think I'd be pretty devastated.

I personally would stay away from Kennels and go with breeders who breed in their home. Hope to hear an update on how the vet appointment goes.

[FlyingNimbus]

I wish you good luck in whatever you end up getting; but do realize you were forewarned about the problems with that plan... and that you are potentially lining the pockets of puppy mills abroad...

That and I can see so many things going wrong, like if they claim it's healthy and all and the vet says it is-- but it comes to your house and the facts are different... realize you won't be able to do much about it and even if you could you would be spending a lot more trying to just keep it alive.


Who knows though? Perhaps you will get really lucky and get a good tempered, and healthy dog with no genetic issues...


I do wish you luck regardless, and good health to your upcoming puppy.


---

As an alternative option, do know that even good breeders who aim to breed dogs at a standard occasionally get relatively smaller dogs every so often as it's not something you can 100% prevent...

The difference between that dog and the other is-- one from a good breeder will likelier have less health issues and less genetic issues.

It's all a gamble though, so I wish you good luck.

[Ares55]

To clarify, the male puppy was coming from a breeder, not a kennel. I worked around police dogs for years and where they are kept is called a kennel, so it's just something I'm used to saying. This breeder breeds out of her home, but I think that's why she gave away the boy we wanted, she might not have wanted us to see her home.

In better news, our Korean girl is totally healthy! She just got done at her vet check up and I watched it on video chat so I could hear what was going on. She was happy and playful and wanted to explore the vets office. I attached a couple photos of the visit but some are blurry from screenshotting the video. She will be flying in to San Francisco on the 25th and we will be staying at our house there that week to wait for her and let her relax before bringing her back to LA. I'll post some photos once we have her with us.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by Ares55

To clarify, the male puppy was coming from a breeder, not a kennel. I worked around police dogs for years and where they are kept is called a kennel, so it's just something I'm used to saying. This breeder breeds out of her home, but I think that's why she gave away the boy we wanted, she might not have wanted us to see her home.

In better news, our Korean girl is totally healthy! She just got done at her vet check up and I watched it on video chat so I could hear what was going on. She was happy and playful and wanted to explore the vets office. I attached a couple photos of the visit but some are blurry from screenshotting the video. She will be flying in to San Francisco on the 25th and we will be staying at our house there that week to wait for her and let her relax before bringing her back to LA. I'll post some photos once we have her with us.

Beautiful dog, but if you do decide to get her, please at least make sure to get her checked up in a trusted vet the same week you get her- the sooner the better.

Have them run tests on her, explain to the vet where you got it from. Dogs that age still have a weak immune system imho.

Good luck tho.

[mimimomo]

Originally Posted by Ares55

Hi everyone, thank you for all your replies.

After a couple months of searching and having no luck with breeders we finally found a breeder that had dogs in Las Vegas and I inquired about them. I fell in love with a cute little girl that I thought was perfect and she was only $3,700, but the breeder let it slip to my boyfriend that she would be 3.5-4 lbs and he didn't want to buy a dog that size.

The breeder mentioned his family in Korea (this is where my bf's last pup was from) would have smaller pups and he managed to find a teeny tiny girl for us. We Skyped with the Korean breeder twice and looked at the conditions there, and they were surprisingly immaculate. We Skyped with the puppy as well and got to see her run around to make sure she was healthy. We ended up buying her (she was $5,800) and she is set to be shipped out in three weeks around April 15th.

Here is my concern, please help if you have any experience with this. I am afraid of shipping a pup this small alone from Korea and would prefer to fly out and bring her back myself but my boyfriend feels it would be dangerous for me to go. The breeder told us this puppy was "around two months old," but to me she looks younger. This worries me because the flight is around 10-11 hours and if she doesn't eat she will have blood sugar problems. I am not an expert at aging pups but something tells me she looks more like 5-6 weeks, and if thats the case I don't want her shipped until she's about 12 weeks old.

Can anyone give an educated guess to how old she is?

Also, we have decided to get her a friend to grow up with but this time it's my choice on which dog we get. I'm looking for another yorkie, boy or girl, but one located in the United States and still small but around 3-5 pounds.

Hi, can I ask, how you found this breeder? Do they have a website. If yes, can you post the link?

Just FYI, Korea is THE #1 PUPPY MILL producer & they breed tiny tiny dogs. That's just the culture there & in Asia (BTW, I'm Korean), they love tiny dogs because majority live in small apartments. Many puppy mills have fancy websites...

Were you able to Skype & see the parents on site? It's just so hard to determine w/out actually visiting the breeder's home. Please be very careful moving forward.

[canana]

I wonder how old this puppy from Korea will be. According to the CDC,

"Puppies must not be vaccinated against rabies before 3 months of age, so the youngest that a puppy can be imported into the United States is 4 months of age. ... Dogs that have never been vaccinated against rabies must be vaccinated at least 30 days prior to arrival. "

https://www.cdc.gov/importation/brin...ates/dogs.html

With the exception that

"Unvaccinated dogs may be imported without proof of rabies vaccination if they have lived in a country that is considered free of rabies for a minimum of 6 months or since birth."

And it doesn't look like Korea is considered a rabies-free country.
https://www.cdc.gov/importation/rabi...countries.html

[TysonMyBoy]

This entire thing is looking a litte sideways to me.

The OP said (loosely quoted) These puppies are going to be born anyway. We can't stop the breeders of tiny puppies in Korea. Well this is just backwards! Backyard breeding, puppy mills, and tiny Korean puppies continue to be born because people continue to support it by purchasing the puppies. It's simple economics: supply and demand. And it's so very sad.

Adopt! Don't shop!

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by TysonMyBoy

This entire thing is looking a litte sideways to me.

The OP said (loosely quoted) These puppies are going to be born anyway. We can't stop the breeders of tiny puppies in Korea. Well this is just backwards! Backyard breeding, puppy mills, and tiny Korean puppies continue to be born because people continue to support it by purchasing the puppies. It's simple economics: supply and demand. And it's so very sad.

Adopt! Don't shop!

First off, let me just say I agree with most of what you said. But you gotta realize that the person simply doesn't give a (insert whatever word you want) about what we think, or the facts, or if she's even contributing to such a tragic thing.

Honestly, no amount of us telling them that doing something is rather irrational, ill-advised, and whatever else you want to add to it won't do anything at all. Just like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink.

Or basically, how a donkey can be stubborn and stay in one spot all day and trying to push it someplace else will result in you getting kicked by it.

I honestly don't think anything will change their mind... but when whatever happens go awry and they come back here for consolation; well you can now just be like "well we told you so quite a lot, pages worth of us advising against it and you didn't listen so you have yourself to blame for being scammed/played for a fool".

I mean I doubt we'd even have to mention it because they probably already know it. I am just saying there really is no point in continuing when it's been made very clear that they are well aware of the situation, they're aware they're contributing to puppy mills and animal cruelty, they're aware that the animal will most likely end up sick(and possibly dying an early painful death), they just do not care. Because just like those people who treat dogs like accessories to go in their purses-- to them they're just replaceable.

The first thing they said basically is enough to believe that they want to replace their other dog because they can't keep it... That enough is enough to realize that they wont cease their plans.

They came here already knowing what was going on, they came here with a plan already in mind. We didn't give the plan for them, they just wanted to be heard for whatever reason.


You can keep trying to advise them but all it will do is annoy them even further and when whatever happens goes awry, they probably won't be back to ask for advice. Though even if they got advice they may not even actually take it. But my point is, nothing we say or show them will have any effect on it what so ever.


The only thing that I disagree is the "adopt don't shop" mentality. I don't think people who buy their dogs should feel ashamed for buying instead of adopting. People have different needs, and different views on that.

I personally think adopting is a nice thing-- but it's not for everyone. When you adopt it's essentially a risky gamble and regardless of what anyone says. Purchasing a dog from a GOOD breeder, who does thing by the book(figurative speech), never breeds bad genes, only breeds to keep the breed alive and never simply for just profit. A breeder who actually gives a damn about their dogs and doesn't treat them like tools for profit. Should yield a higher chance of success.

It's all statistics. You can still get a bad pick from the litter, but the likelihood of that is really low compared to adopting which the dog probably has unknown origins which means they could be ill-bred, from a puppy mill and have a ton of underlying issues that the people caring for them don't even know about...

If you go to a rescue(foster home) the chances of knowing more about the dog is significantly higher than going to a pound... but it's still sort of a gamble- even with an older dog.