Wanted - VERY small girl to buy!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Yorkiex

I'm glad you're deciding on going and getting her personally. I just picked up my tiny from the airport last week and he flew 13 hours by himself and to say I didn't sleep the night before is an understatement. He's 13 weeks and weighs 2 pounds and he's TIIIINY. In fact, I'm extremely careful with him 24/7 because of how tiny and delicate he is. As long as the puppy checks out with a clean bill of health and you're with her 24/7 on the flight I think you'll be okay. I'm HUUUUUGE on Korea and everything Korean and I know the "tiny puppy" craze is huge over there and TOOOONS of people over there buy those teacups; also for the price you paid I don't think you have anything to worry about. I paid about 1/4 of what you paid for your dog but he's definitely not going to be 2.5 pounds full grown, maybe 3.5-4 pounds I'm thinking. I would feel too uncomfortable with him being any smaller than that I think lol! Anyway, keep us posted and share pictures once you get her!

Just felt like I should let you know there is no such thing as a teacup it was just made up by bad breeders to make money. The yorkie standard is not to exceed 7 pounds so 7 pounds and under is just standard.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by airplane

There was a different way to respond than to say that.

Y'know, I'm really sad about the decisions you and your boyfriend have made. This is an online community and most everyone tries to give good advice and be helpful. And the points people are making, they are valid. And if your boyfriend has his heart set on a smaller sized yorkie, if you're willing to maybe wait awhile, you can get that from good solid reputable breeders. There's many in the country, heck I even know one close to you in San Francisco. As you know, breeders who breed for standard size do end up with smaller ones on occasion, as well as larger ones too. That can happen every once in awhile. I just can't wrap my head around the crazy price. You are really overpaying for a pet yorkie. 5800 if I'm not mistaken is up in the price range that's something you'd maybe expect for a show dog. It's definitely way up there for a pet. And the breeder doesn't even know the date of birth. I actually thought that was a joke.

I don't know what type of responses you were expecting from people when you made your post, but I'm just really sad that size has taken priority over far more important factors. There's a science to breeding, and that science needs to be put towards those more important factors (health, for example). That's what most people care the most about. They want a breeder who is known to produce healthy dogs. I just don't understand why you wouldn't wait and find a good breeder who will, cause they all do, have a smaller dog on occasion. The whole Korean tiny puppy craze, it's just so unfortunate. Those breeders are not bettering the breed. And I couldn't imagine anybody supporting that. But I guess if you just want a puppy right now and all you care about is size, then I guess there you go.

When I purchased my Yorkie from a Crufts Breeder after being on a waiting list for 2 years and doing research for the right type of dog for me and my circumstances for the previous 2 years, the breeder asked me if I had any intentions of taking him to China or Korea. I told her I thought that was a strange question and said I had no intentions to go to either place but why did she ask? She advised that Yorkies, Poms and Chi's are being bred in those two countries, specifically, in inhumane conditions and overseas Westerners were driving the puppy mill conditions cleverly disguised under loving homes with parents ads etc. to make them feel better about buying undersize dogs that the breed standard does not condone due to the health issues etc.

Unfortunately, until now, I didn't get this far on this thread to explain that it is well known that Korea and other Asian countries are renown for breeding malformed 'tiny/teacups' to Westerners over the internet....refer to Paris Hilton who bought her Pom from well known puppy mill in Korea based on the fact it was going to be 'tiny'.

Sadly, people seem to want to be ignorant and get what they want in the way they want it no matter the cost to the individual animals and the greater good. It sickens me and if I don't speak out against it, how can I sleep at night knowing passiveness almost enables it; no, encourages this sick practice just so they don't get upset?? Nah, that's not me. I couldn't look my dog or any other animal in the eye if I didn't speak out against what I know is blatantly wrong.

My opinion is this: if you want a well bred dog, do your due diligence and support proven breeders who are in it to better the breed - not their greed. And, if you want a 'tiny' anything??? Get a hamster. You don't need a dog.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

When I purchased my Yorkie from a Crufts Breeder after being on a waiting list for 2 years and doing research for the right type of dog for me and my circumstances for the previous 2 years, the breeder asked me if I had any intentions of taking him to China or Korea. I told her I thought that was a strange question and said I had no intentions to go to either place but why did she ask? She advised that Yorkies, Poms and Chi's are being bred in those two countries, specifically, in inhumane conditions and overseas Westerners were driving the puppy mill conditions cleverly disguised under loving homes with parents ads etc. to make them feel better about buying undersize dogs that the breed standard does not condone due to the health issues etc.

Unfortunately, until now, I didn't get this far on this thread to explain that it is well known that Korea and other Asian countries are renown for breeding malformed 'tiny/teacups' to Westerners over the internet....refer to Paris Hilton who bought her Pom from well known puppy mill in Korea based on the fact it was going to be 'tiny'.

Sadly, people seem to want to be ignorant and get what they want in the way they want it no matter the cost to the individual animals and the greater good. It sickens me and if I don't speak out against it, how can I sleep at night knowing passiveness almost enables it; no, encourages this sick practice just so they don't get upset?? Nah, that's not me. I couldn't look my dog or any other animal in the eye if I didn't speak out against what I know is blatantly wrong.

My opinion is this: if you want a well bred dog, do your due diligence and support proven breeders who are in it to better the breed - not their greed. And, if you want a 'tiny' anything??? Get a hamster. You don't need a dog.

I mean I agree and all, and I know you're trying to educate but there is a saying "Fall on deaf ears"... all I am saying is the person is participating in "willful ignorance" and just wants to hear what they want to hear(selective hearing or reading in this case).

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make the horse drink.

I cannot say whether the person is a well informed care taker or not but at this point there's really not much that can be done asides leave the facts and hope they eventually take them on their own.


To be honest, whatever she and he decide I wish them good fortune and happiness... As for the dogs themselves that will keep getting pumped out because of more buyers I just wish them relief of some sort.

I do hope they find what they were looking for and do not regret the decision that they have made later on.

[Yorkiex]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Just felt like I should let you know there is no such thing as a teacup it was just made up by bad breeders to make money. The yorkie standard is not to exceed 7 pounds so 7 pounds and under is just standard.

Oh yeah, I know that! That's exactly what the Korean breeders do, lol. I wouldn't ever pay $5,000 for a puppy but some people will. The only part that I don't agree with is the health issues they end up having bc of the breeding they do to get them to that size. I'm sure its super dangerous and most of those puppies don't even end up living that long b/c of their size. I think the best thing to do here is to find a reputable breeder that has a "tiny" puppy and that doesn't try to over-price it and get a "teacup" price out of it.

[yorkietalkjilly]

My Jilly was a 3 lb. tiny and though I loved her fiercely and with every fiber of my heart, the stress & strain of caring for a very tiny dog with the attendant medical issues they usually have was 24/7/365. She was a tiny angel - so perfect and cute beyond belief with a personality to die for! She tilted her head just so to clutch your heart with cuteness! She was a teeny tornado, fearing nothing, ruling her world with black, snapping little eyes & tiny perfect, perked ears, wee feet that stamped to get her way. There was nothing more adorable or dearer on earth than she! And she was a joy to live with, a joy to just look at, to live with and love. I wouldn't trade her for the whole world.

But tiny, fragile little Jilly had a lifetime of medical problems and suffering, w/many, many vet, vet ER and hospital visits & urgent, fearful vet calls. I suffered right along with her, somehow almost felt her every discomfort as acutely as she, spent many, many long days and nights seeing her through scary bouts of illness at home or at the ER vet clinic. Out for a walk, blocks from our home, she was violently attacked by an off-leash Dalmatian dog who ran from out of no-where, suffered many bites, had to have surgical repair and 6 weeks of rehab. She was so tiny the Dalmatian just picked her whole body up in his mouth before I could fight him off. He followed us to the end of the block, trying to get at her again as she had seizures in my arms almost all the way home. Never know how I drove to the vet clinic while trying to calm my traumatized little baby.

She had congenital & acute GI issues which manifested throughout her life all too frequently, saw many specialists, took many, many tests and a lot of medicine over the years. Falling off things she managed to get onto was and breaking herself was a constant fear of mine so she was NEVER allowed out of my sight. She almost choked to death after swallowing a chewie end - throat so tiny it stuck and immediately swelled in her minuscule pharynx, cutting off all but a trickle of air. Gasping & fighting desperately for air, she went into a panicked frenzy, digging at her face with her claws. I had to gather her up w/my car keys and somehow breathe for her after she went limp as I was driving one-handed in wild panic to the vet in the night, fearing she had just died in my arms. I don't know how we made it or she didn't die that night. We spent most of yet another night at the vet's.

When 3 weeks before Christmas her tiny shoulder joint finally gave out from all the jumping dogs that tiny dogs must do, even on their own doggie steps, it fractured/dislocated and failed to heal after 3 weeks of horrible casting, the vets and I concluded she'd been through enough to last a lifetime and at the age of 13 w/arthritis and many other medical problems, she wasn't a candidate for amputation or its rehab. She had enough problems without trying to learn how to walk all over again at her age with only 3 legs. I couldn't bear the thought of that tiny angel struggling anymore. I told her goodbye late on Christmas Eve. I couldn't lose my precious little Jilly....but I did. It broke me. I didn't want another dog for years.

Anyone who deliberately breeds dogs too small to comfortably and safely live a normal dog's life should be run out of the human race. They do not care a whit about the life the little dog has to try to live or that of the people who love it more than life. Please either rescue or reward only breeders who breed responsibly for healthy dogs with your next dog purchase.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

My Jilly was a 3 lb. tiny and though I loved her fiercely and with every fiber of my heart, the stress & strain of caring for a very tiny dog with the attendant medical issues they usually have was 24/7/365. She was a tiny angel - so perfect and cute beyond belief with a personality to die for! She tilted her head just so to clutch your heart with cuteness! She was a teeny tornado, fearing nothing, ruling her world with black, snapping little eyes & tiny perfect, perked ears, wee feet that stamped to get her way. There was nothing more adorable or dearer on earth than she! And she was a joy to live with, a joy to just look at, to live with and love. I wouldn't trade her for the whole world.

But tiny, fragile little Jilly had a lifetime of medical problems and suffering, w/many, many vet, vet ER and hospital visits & urgent, fearful vet calls. I suffered right along with her, somehow almost felt her every discomfort as acutely as she, spent many, many long days and nights seeing her through scary bouts of illness at home or at the ER vet clinic. Out for a walk, blocks from our home, she was violently attacked by an off-leash Dalmatian dog who ran from out of no-where, suffered many bites, had to have surgical repair and 6 weeks of rehab. She was so tiny the Dalmatian just picked her whole body up in his mouth before I could fight him off. He followed us to the end of the block, trying to get at her again as she had seizures in my arms almost all the way home. Never know how I drove to the vet clinic while trying to calm my traumatized little baby.

She had congenital & acute GI issues which manifested throughout her life all too frequently, saw many specialists, took many, many tests and a lot of medicine over the years. Falling off things she managed to get onto was and breaking herself was a constant fear of mine so she was NEVER allowed out of my sight. She almost choked to death after swallowing a chewie end - throat so tiny it stuck and immediately swelled in her minuscule pharynx, cutting off all but a trickle of air. Gasping & fighting desperately for air, she went into a panicked frenzy, digging at her face with her claws. I had to gather her up w/my car keys and somehow breathe for her after she went limp as I was driving one-handed in wild panic to the vet in the night, fearing she had just died in my arms. I don't know how we made it or she didn't die that night. We spent most of yet another night at the vet's.

When 3 weeks before Christmas her tiny shoulder joint finally gave out from all the jumping dogs that tiny dogs must do, even on their own doggie steps, it fractured/dislocated and failed to heal after 3 weeks of horrible casting, the vets and I concluded she'd been through enough to last a lifetime and at the age of 13 w/arthritis and many other medical problems, she wasn't a candidate for amputation or its rehab. She had enough problems without trying to learn how to walk all over again at her age with only 3 legs. I couldn't bear the thought of that tiny angel struggling anymore. I told her goodbye late on Christmas Eve. I couldn't lose my precious little Jilly....but I did. It broke me. I didn't want another dog for years.

Anyone who deliberately breeds dogs too small to comfortably and safely live a normal dog's life should be run out of the human race. They do not care a whit about the life the little dog has to try to live or that of the people who love it more than life. Please either rescue or reward only breeders who breed responsibly for healthy dogs with your next dog purchase.

Let me just say that I am quite sorry for your loss... sounds like Jilly was a very good dog, and adorable.

I actually think, a lot of people who are enticed into buying those "teacup" , "micro" or whatever term you may have heard of... they don't even know what they're getting themselves into, much less what kind of tragedy will befall on their new addition... and the sort of practice they're endorsing...

I think that someone purposely going out of their way to get a dog like that despite of learning the truth about those poor dogs and their "breeders" have as much as a hand in the practice as the people who breed them.... For every dog they buy like that, they are endorsing those people potentially mistreating those animals, and by doing so-- they themselves are mistreating the animals.

This may appear slightly unrelated but;

I used to work at this small mom and pop pet shop(no dogs or cats being sold there just their foods, reptiles, fish, amphibians, birds, small mammals) near where I live. Now I was in charge of taking care of the animals being sold there, and I personally researched each animals care long before working there as that was my passion and everyday I came into that job we would have all sorts of customers... Majority of the people who went into the store were rather ignorant about what they were planning on buying-- which in a sense I guess I didn't expect them to.

However every single time I worked there quite a lot of the customers who would come to me with pet related questions that would really reveal the sad secrets of the pet industry. While pet ownership is definitely not wrong in my perspective(and of a lot of people), it does leave the doors open to people do as they please with other living beings...

I recall the many questions that saddened me... I will just say one prime example to make my point....

I remember being asked by an older woman, an apparent mother claimed her son just went off to college and that she had bought him a baby turtle-- showed me a photo and all. Told me that the turtle had been living in a fish bowl. Asked me what size tank they needed. The photo she showed me was that of a extremely common to get, red eared slider.

Now a red eared slider I told her, needs at least 55gallons of water to swim otherwise the turtle will become stunted. Being that turtles require some land area I explained to her how one would need to make it so. I explained everything to do with their care.

But all throughout my explanation she kept interrupting asking me if she couldn't just keep it in a 2.5 gallon aquarium. Said she didn't have the space for it, nor the money for it and that it was her sons pet that he couldn't take care of because he was going off to college.

So I explained to her that she should then seek someone who could take care of it-- she then interrupted and said that she wanted it to be there for when her son returned, so I told her to buy a large tupperware container the biggest one they made that it should be able to keep it, told her where she could get cheap light fixtures, and all she had to do was get the light bulbs here(specific for reptiles), the food and water conditioner but she just kept asking me if she could keep it in a 2.5gallon aquarium, after 10 more minutes(30minutes of repeating it) I get pulled away by a coworker and I do I see that she still decides to buy a small 2.5gallon aquarium.....


--

So in conclusion, my point is, that no matter how much you educate some people, they still will not care- and they will claim they're doing it for the animal or for some other "noble" reason but deep down we all know otherwise that it's just for their own selfish desires....

My point is, dogs, like all animals are just "items" to some people, an "accessory"... Some will learn after experiencing it first hand, others just won't care.

I just wish people could reach down into themselves and do the right thing.

I apologize for the long winded speech, but I felt the need to make a clear point.

There are many more examples of animal cruelty that I came to see/hear about from the customers own mouths... Now I am not saying all of them were bad, just saying the ones that are -- are in plain sight.

Knowledge is power.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Ares55

Hi everyone, thank you for all your replies.

After a couple months of searching and having no luck with breeders we finally found a breeder that had dogs in Las Vegas and I inquired about them. I fell in love with a cute little girl that I thought was perfect and she was only $3,700, but the breeder let it slip to my boyfriend that she would be 3.5-4 lbs and he didn't want to buy a dog that size.

The breeder mentioned his family in Korea (this is where my bf's last pup was from) would have smaller pups and he managed to find a teeny tiny girl for us. We Skyped with the Korean breeder twice and looked at the conditions there, and they were surprisingly immaculate. We Skyped with the puppy as well and got to see her run around to make sure she was healthy. We ended up buying her (she was $5,800) and she is set to be shipped out in three weeks around April 15th.

Here is my concern, please help if you have any experience with this. I am afraid of shipping a pup this small alone from Korea and would prefer to fly out and bring her back myself but my boyfriend feels it would be dangerous for me to go. The breeder told us this puppy was "around two months old," but to me she looks younger. This worries me because the flight is around 10-11 hours and if she doesn't eat she will have blood sugar problems. I am not an expert at aging pups but something tells me she looks more like 5-6 weeks, and if thats the case I don't want her shipped until she's about 12 weeks old.

Can anyone give an educated guess to how old she is?

Also, we have decided to get her a friend to grow up with but this time it's my choice on which dog we get. I'm looking for another yorkie, boy or girl, but one located in the United States and still small but around 3-5 pounds.

Do you know the health lineage of the pup? I'd be most interested to know the health of the parents/grandparents of this puppy and how can you really know that unless you know and trust your breeder.

I think you are right to be suspicious of the age of that pup. I would guess 4 - 5 weeks would be the age of this puppy. Note the lack of fluffy puppy coat that you typically see at around 8 weeks, the age at which most puppies seem to be advertised. Some internet advertisers show only very young, very tiny pups in ads but have been known to substitute much larger, certainly heavier, older dogs with wide-set, larger, often thicker, flappy ear leathers, longer muzzles, when it comes time to ship - that is IF there is actually a dog for sale at all. I would be VERY hesitant to buy from the internet unless the seller-breeder was referred by a reputable breeder I knew or another person you knew you could trust who had dealt successfully with this seller-breeder and his pups' health and breed conformity qualities.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by FlyingNimbus

Let me just say that I am quite sorry for your loss... sounds like Jilly was a very good dog, and adorable.

I actually think, a lot of people who are enticed into buying those "teacup" , "micro" or whatever term you may have heard of... they don't even know what they're getting themselves into, much less what kind of tragedy will befall on their new addition... and the sort of practice they're endorsing...

I think that someone purposely going out of their way to get a dog like that despite of learning the truth about those poor dogs and their "breeders" have as much as a hand in the practice as the people who breed them.... For every dog they buy like that, they are endorsing those people potentially mistreating those animals, and by doing so-- they themselves are mistreating the animals.

This may appear slightly unrelated but;

I used to work at this small mom and pop pet shop(no dogs or cats being sold there just their foods, reptiles, fish, amphibians, birds, small mammals) near where I live. Now I was in charge of taking care of the animals being sold there, and I personally researched each animals care long before working there as that was my passion and everyday I came into that job we would have all sorts of customers... Majority of the people who went into the store were rather ignorant about what they were planning on buying-- which in a sense I guess I didn't expect them to.

However every single time I worked there quite a lot of the customers who would come to me with pet related questions that would really reveal the sad secrets of the pet industry. While pet ownership is definitely not wrong in my perspective(and of a lot of people), it does leave the doors open to people do as they please with other living beings...

I recall the many questions that saddened me... I will just say one prime example to make my point....

I remember being asked by an older woman, an apparent mother claimed her son just went off to college and that she had bought him a baby turtle-- showed me a photo and all. Told me that the turtle had been living in a fish bowl. Asked me what size tank they needed. The photo she showed me was that of a extremely common to get, red eared slider.

Now a red eared slider I told her, needs at least 55gallons of water to swim otherwise the turtle will become stunted. Being that turtles require some land area I explained to her how one would need to make it so. I explained everything to do with their care.

But all throughout my explanation she kept interrupting asking me if she couldn't just keep it in a 2.5 gallon aquarium. Said she didn't have the space for it, nor the money for it and that it was her sons pet that he couldn't take care of because he was going off to college.

So I explained to her that she should then seek someone who could take care of it-- she then interrupted and said that she wanted it to be there for when her son returned, so I told her to buy a large tupperware container the biggest one they made that it should be able to keep it, told her where she could get cheap light fixtures, and all she had to do was get the light bulbs here(specific for reptiles), the food and water conditioner but she just kept asking me if she could keep it in a 2.5gallon aquarium, after 10 more minutes(30minutes of repeating it) I get pulled away by a coworker and I do I see that she still decides to buy a small 2.5gallon aquarium.....


--

So in conclusion, my point is, that no matter how much you educate some people, they still will not care- and they will claim they're doing it for the animal or for some other "noble" reason but deep down we all know otherwise that it's just for their own selfish desires....

My point is, dogs, like all animals are just "items" to some people, an "accessory"... Some will learn after experiencing it first hand, others just won't care.

I just wish people could reach down into themselves and do the right thing.

I apologize for the long winded speech, but I felt the need to make a clear point.

There are many more examples of animal cruelty that I came to see/hear about from the customers own mouths... Now I am not saying all of them were bad, just saying the ones that are -- are in plain sight.

Knowledge is power.

Thank you for your kind words about little Jilly. I took Jilly, the runt of the litter from a breeder I long knew, who'd hand-raised her, saving her for herself or for a very savvy caregiver with lots of time on their hands - me, in other words. My first Yorkie, Scotty, was also a tiny, 3 lbs. and quite healthy, though I didn't know a thing about Yorkies when I got him! So naturally I wanted another just like him, though I had learned the constant watch and worry involved with a tiny was a real job! I was well-informed and well-versed at all the nurturing, time, wads and wads of money, nursing duties and worry that might be involved with a tiny runt and still it was painful and soul-wearying to see Jilly suffer over and over or try to do things she was too frail to do. Tiny, fragile things don't always live very happy lives but boy, she tried with every fiber of her tiny being. Still, I wouldn't wish her life on anyone or anything. With a tiny, the chances of getting a dog with health and fragility problems are far greater than that of a full-sized Yorkie, a very small dog anyway.

Sad, sad story about the turtle's life in that too-tiny tank! Poor thing. Totally stymied in its little wild heart to 2.5 gallons of 'life'. Poor little creature. Like those poor fish in tiny round bowls! Ugh! And like wild zoo animals confined to cages or 'enclosures' rather than the savage, open savanna, free to run, roam and wander, forage, hunt and migrate for change of food sources, mates and scenery at will, not walk the few yards of its caged/fenced area, be it small or large, it's still confined, a complete prisoner, not a free wild thing as its heart yearns to be. So sad that many people seem to put their wants first, not the needs of the animals sadly restricted to our care and custody.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Thank you for your kind words about little Jilly. I took Jilly, the runt of the litter from a breeder I long knew, who'd hand-raised her, saving her for herself or for a very savvy caregiver with lots of time on their hands - me, in other words. My first Yorkie, Scotty, was also a tiny, 3 lbs. and quite healthy, though I didn't know a thing about Yorkies when I got him! So naturally I wanted another just like him, though I had learned the constant watch and worry involved with a tiny was a real job! I was well-informed and well-versed at all the nurturing, time, wads and wads of money, nursing duties and worry that might be involved with a tiny runt and still it was painful and soul-wearying to see Jilly suffer over and over or try to do things she was too frail to do. Tiny, fragile things don't always live very happy lives but boy, she tried with every fiber of her tiny being. Still, I wouldn't wish her life on anyone or anything. With a tiny, the chances of getting a dog with health and fragility problems are far greater than that of a full-sized Yorkie, a very small dog anyway.

Sad, sad story about the turtle's life in that too-tiny tank! Poor thing. Totally stymied in its little wild heart to 2.5 gallons of 'life'. Poor little creature. Like those poor fish in tiny round bowls! Ugh! And like wild zoo animals confined to cages or 'enclosures' rather than the savage, open savanna, free to run, roam and wander, forage, hunt and migrate for change of food sources, mates and scenery at will, not walk the few yards of its caged/fenced area, be it small or large, it's still confined, a complete prisoner, not a free wild thing as its heart yearns to be. So sad that many people seem to put their wants first, not the needs of the animals sadly restricted to our care and custody.

Sounds like you gave that dog a piece of heaven though. I am glad she lived with someone who cared for her as much as you did.


As for enclosures, I agree somethings shouldn't be enclosed, unless you can cover their typical use of space. For example a totally random animal but let's take I don't know-- a pacman frog as long as it's space needs are met they are fine. For there are animals that don't like to stray or wander far... Pac man frogs are ambush predators and as such they tend to pick one spot and they do not move from that spot much.

You could give it a large enclosure and I will tell you right now it will sit in one corner all of the time, only moving to switch locations, sit in water or eat.

As they burrow into the dirt and wait for signs of movement before attacking.


Animals like that are very much fine in confinement if not it's probably godsend for them. To my belief at least, because of the lack of predators.


Animals that enjoy a lot of movement wouldn't be that happy in close quarters.

Snakes are fine in their enclosures as they generally like to be in tight spaces to begin with and are happy anywhere that is warm, and has enough food.

Things like bears, badgers, and other nomadic animals would do well in larger enclosures than the average zoo gives them.

Animals like lions while they enjoy having their space they all like to stay in their own territory. Usually about 100 square miles or more.


While some animals I feel sad to see in captivity, there are some that do well in captivity like certain endangered species. For the betterment of the species.


But yes, that is typically the case from what I've seen... people tend to only put their wants first even if it hurts something else. But I am rather a cynic so that's just taken with a grain of salt.

[JennaPenny]

The photo she showed me was that of a extremely common to get, red eared slider.


Haha. Oh my lord. We found our two turtles that way. In a chinese buffet place. We thought, oh, how sweet. A way to get a (tiny) pet so our kids can learn. I'm just glad both hubby and I won't just get a pet just to get one. We researched, and we got tanks to grow with their size right up to the point that bambi (my daughter called the male that, please don't ask me why) and started attacking Tama for refusing to, um, mate with her. We saw shell fragments as well. I had to give her to the herp society and I adored her- she was MY turtle and I was able to handle her. They have some pretty neat personalities. Bambi, lasted for a lot longer, but when our old place was sold, we had a month to leave. we had around a month where we had to do hotel hopping. So he also left to the same place. We suspect he's happily a'humping other turtles.

[JennaPenny]

Oh, jilly sounds like she was such a sweet little girl!!!

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by JennaPenny

Oh, jilly sounds like she was such a sweet little girl!!!

She really was but who has ever met a Yorkie that wasn't? Greatest breed ever!

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by FlyingNimbus

Sounds like you gave that dog a piece of heaven though. I am glad she lived with someone who cared for her as much as you did.


As for enclosures, I agree somethings shouldn't be enclosed, unless you can cover their typical use of space. For example a totally random animal but let's take I don't know-- a pacman frog as long as it's space needs are met they are fine. For there are animals that don't like to stray or wander far... Pac man frogs are ambush predators and as such they tend to pick one spot and they do not move from that spot much.

You could give it a large enclosure and I will tell you right now it will sit in one corner all of the time, only moving to switch locations, sit in water or eat.

As they burrow into the dirt and wait for signs of movement before attacking.


Animals like that are very much fine in confinement if not it's probably godsend for them. To my belief at least, because of the lack of predators.


Animals that enjoy a lot of movement wouldn't be that happy in close quarters.

Snakes are fine in their enclosures as they generally like to be in tight spaces to begin with and are happy anywhere that is warm, and has enough food.

Things like bears, badgers, and other nomadic animals would do well in larger enclosures than the average zoo gives them.

Animals like lions while they enjoy having their space they all like to stay in their own territory. Usually about 100 square miles or more.


While some animals I feel sad to see in captivity, there are some that do well in captivity like certain endangered species. For the betterment of the species.


But yes, that is typically the case from what I've seen... people tend to only put their wants first even if it hurts something else. But I am rather a cynic so that's just taken with a grain of salt.

I just can't buy that an undomesticated, wild animal, fish or bird with instincts to roam freely is every truly fulfilled or truly happy as it would have been living its whole life in any type of containment, especially if it is indoors, that would restrict said being beyond its naturally wild limits, often subjected to changing caregivers and lifestyles far removed from its wild kin . As far as endangered species, I can't help but bleed in my heart for the wild specimens we keep contained for their natural habitat, prod, poke, breed, study and watch for perpetuation of the species, so others can be free if the species survives. Do the ends justify the means? I think I think so right now but still wonder about how damaged an animal's actual long-term genetic and psychological health might be from all of the changing caregivers, wildly foreign objects and living/travel/relocation situations we subject them to while striving to 'save' the species. Imagine what a lovely, graceful giraffe must think about being loaded by handlers into a steel cage to travel in a van on a noisy freeway to get to an airport, loaded into a jet aircraft to fly across country to a new zoo for a 10 year lease program, after which he'll be loaded back up and returned, if he's still alive. He's genetically programmed to roam a quiet, free savanna as he lives his wild life, not deal with any of that.

Sorry to OP for highjacking your thread to wander off into another subjects but I suppose it all has to do with how we so easily seen to mistreat or mismanage our animals for whatever seems to serve human wants of the moment and whether or not it's the best or right thing for that one particular animal's health, welfare/safety, genetic/natural-instinct fulfillment and right to live as naturally as possible for its species.

[FlyingNimbus]

Originally Posted by JennaPenny

The photo she showed me was that of a extremely common to get, red eared slider.


Haha. Oh my lord. We found our two turtles that way. In a chinese buffet place. We thought, oh, how sweet. A way to get a (tiny) pet so our kids can learn. I'm just glad both hubby and I won't just get a pet just to get one. We researched, and we got tanks to grow with their size right up to the point that bambi (my daughter called the male that, please don't ask me why) and started attacking Tama for refusing to, um, mate with her. We saw shell fragments as well. I had to give her to the herp society and I adored her- she was MY turtle and I was able to handle her. They have some pretty neat personalities. Bambi, lasted for a lot longer, but when our old place was sold, we had a month to leave. we had around a month where we had to do hotel hopping. So he also left to the same place. We suspect he's happily a'humping other turtles.

Sounds like a softshell turtle to be honest... That's what's mostly in those chinese grocery stores... Bullfrogs, Softshell turtle, rarely diamond back terrapin(not sure if done illegally or what), doubt I'd see a red eared over there but then again, maybe not.... Red eared sliders are extremely prolific and in some areas can get 5 each for a quarter.....


My aunt got my cousin a turtle once in mexico, and he ended up tormenting it by picking it up and playing with it like as if it was a car... ended up dead, was pretty mad at her when I heard her tell me that story...

I know about the male thing, it's pretty easy to tell a male if you've had it for some time because if you ever pick it up the cloaca may pop out and that's an instant way to tell.. you don't have to do anything other than just pick it up by the shell-- only seen it with red eareds though...

These things are bred in such large quantities in some areas if no one accepts them they ended up being culled because of the mass number of them...

They do have neat personalities, and some tolerate handling but no turtle likes to be handled, actually no reptile or amphibian enjoys handling they just tolerate it if anything. Well, good thing they're not like amphibians... amphibians have rather delicate skin and most end up breathing through their skin sort of.. If the pores are plugged I heard they die. Sensitive to chemicals, and stuff -- more so why shouldn't be handled because of the stuff on our hands.

All turtles need large enclosure, even the smallest turtle available in the pet trade which is 3-4 inches long needs a rather sizeable enclosure... I love turtles, but because of that I try not to keep them anymore, not unless I made a pond for them which they would appreciate a lot better, or a big enclosure like that.

Shell fragments? You mean the scutes? They shed those, more so basking turtles than bottom dwellers.

[JennaPenny]

Originally Posted by FlyingNimbus

Sounds like a softshell turtle to be honest... That's what's mostly in those chinese grocery stores... Bullfrogs, Softshell turtle, rarely diamond back terrapin(not sure if done illegally or what), doubt I'd see a red eared over there but then again, maybe not.... Red eared sliders are extremely prolific and in some areas can get 5 each for a quarter.....


My aunt got my cousin a turtle once in mexico, and he ended up tormenting it by picking it up and playing with it like as if it was a car... ended up dead, was pretty mad at her when I heard her tell me that story...

I know about the male thing, it's pretty easy to tell a male if you've had it for some time because if you ever pick it up the cloaca may pop out and that's an instant way to tell.. you don't have to do anything other than just pick it up by the shell-- only seen it with red eareds though...

These things are bred in such large quantities in some areas if no one accepts them they ended up being culled because of the mass number of them...

They do have neat personalities, and some tolerate handling but no turtle likes to be handled, actually no reptile or amphibian enjoys handling they just tolerate it if anything. Well, good thing they're not like amphibians... amphibians have rather delicate skin and most end up breathing through their skin sort of.. If the pores are plugged I heard they die. Sensitive to chemicals, and stuff -- more so why shouldn't be handled because of the stuff on our hands.

All turtles need large enclosure, even the smallest turtle available in the pet trade which is 3-4 inches long needs a rather sizeable enclosure... I love turtles, but because of that I try not to keep them anymore, not unless I made a pond for them which they would appreciate a lot better, or a big enclosure like that.

Shell fragments? You mean the scutes? They shed those, more so basking turtles than bottom dwellers.

Nope- they were red eared sliders. We took them to the vet. I kinda shortened what happened. We took them for regular, yearly, updates. She was getting calcium deprived, because he'd regularly, um, mount her, and she was at the point where she was actually laying eggs. TOO much, the vet said. Those were her egg shell fragments. At that point, along with her head being chewed up by Bambi, we put her in the herp rescue. I'll get a picture up shortly so you can see that they were definitely red eared sliders.