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Old 11-27-2016, 07:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
I hate the whole argument for looks thing it's kinda like making people wear make up for looks or getting plastic surgery for looks. I think natural in most things are bueatiful. My pup is extremely fast with no balance issues so not sure that really holds up. I just don't think there are health issues with not docking a tail or even docking a tail.
Actually Dr Chris zinc believes a natural tail actually provides critical functions in agility dogs to give functional balance to the dog. At a performance workshop I attended we saw slo mo movies of dogs in action and how important the tail was.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:28 AM   #17
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Like ear piercing and circumsicion I am sure this is a hot debate. I would wonder in response to the 'immorality' of tail docking if that belief was consistently upheld with other behaviors of the like; such as dew claw removal, spay and neuter, infant ear piercing and circumsicion. One could relate dew claw removal and tail docking for its injury prevention concept to the common issue known as 'happy tail'

What is Happy Tail Syndrome in Dogs? | CANIDAEŽ

And if one believed dew claw removal was acceptable to prevent injury then would one consider tail docking to prevent injury acceptable as well?

I realize I stated a value in the aesthetic being part of what makes a breed a breed and I still very much feel that way- a brown dog with a short coat is not a golden retriever even if it retrieves- all these things said I think long tails are lovely and I chose not to have my three sons circumcised. To wrap my head around the logic of the opinion though, and if I were to be persuaded to share the same opinion for example, I would expect to see consistency across the board with a series of beliefs that upheld the core of the one up for debate and I am curious if that is consistent and if not, why not? Is an injury prevention tail docking an acceptable circumstance for tail docking? Is it not? Then is it cruel to preventatively remove dew claws? Or circumcise babies? And I know we are talking about animals and humans seperately but if the question is cruelty to an animal by performing an unnecessary medical procedure then I am sure the ethic holds across the board to humans having the same right to cruelty prevention doesn't it? Or if that is acceptable to subject a human to, then why? And why would that level of treatment be acceptable for a human but not for an animal- again if it is a matter of the act itself being a cruel act and not just a matter of cultural practice or religious or breed preference?

Although I hope it is clear in my communication style I really value the opinions on subjects like these and I think it is important to help us all think and make informed decisions- one way or another- about ethics and conciousness and our behavior. I know people are passionate about their feelings and opinions and I want to be respectful of people's different positions. I don't ask these questions to spark any negativity but just the opposite: I genuinely desire to consider the different viewpoints and why a person feels one way or another so that I can consider diversity more thoroughly and shape my own plane of consciousness as part of my beliefs and value system. I appreciate hearing everyone's different viewpoints on the subject.

Lilah you are a very thoughtful and articulate woman. I so enjoy your posts and varying points of view. It is the rare person who is open to challenging their beliefs.

I believe for what it is worth that tail docking and dew claw removal at age appropriate done by a vet is not harmful. How ever if I was interested in a performance dog I might not do either.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:02 PM   #18
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Lilah you are a very thoughtful and articulate woman. I so enjoy your posts and varying points of view. It is the rare person who is open to challenging their beliefs.

I believe for what it is worth that tail docking and dew claw removal at age appropriate done by a vet is not harmful. How ever if I was interested in a performance dog I might not do either.
You are a sweetheart and I so appreciate your kind comments Gail, thank you it is really interesting to hear about the tail function in agility and a very reasonable thing to assume when you think of it- I would say we are generally crafted very well for our purposes by nature
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:08 PM   #19
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Default This is a nice tread-

I'm happy to see such a nice discussion about tail docking and dew claw removal. A few years ago I was regularly attacked here for promoting the idea of making these practices "breeders' choice."
I've never been in favor of making it a legal matter, but I like the idea of making it optional even if doing so requires re-educating the show judges who have been slow to catch on.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:33 AM   #20
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It's no longer a breed standard and discouraged. I know dog shows in the UK now have dogs with full tails. Yayyy. I do love a Yorkie with a tail. They look so delightful and I believe the standard is moving to North America too
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:34 AM   #21
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My vet said they would only remove few claws if not attached to a blood vessel.
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:01 AM   #22
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It's no longer a breed standard and discouraged. I know dog shows in the UK now have dogs with full tails. Yayyy. I do love a Yorkie with a tail. They look so delightful and I believe the standard is moving to North America too
It's still the breed standard here sadly.
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Old 11-28-2016, 04:24 PM   #23
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Actually Dr Chris zinc believes a natural tail actually provides critical functions in agility dogs to give functional balance to the dog. At a performance workshop I attended we saw slo mo movies of dogs in action and how important the tail was.
Well I want to eventually do agility with the new pup and he has a full tail
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Old 11-28-2016, 04:39 PM   #24
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Training the canine athlete a must read by dr Chris zinc. Amazon might have it cheap.

You want to have in good shape before first class. Long walks some hill work etc. Sit beg stand amazing back strengthener.
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Old 11-28-2016, 06:02 PM   #25
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I no longer remove dewclaws on my puppies (although would remove rear dew claws if any puppies ever have any). I bought two dogs from Canada who still had their dewclaws and after having them, saw no reason to remove them any longer. Removing dewclaws caused bleeding and screaming puppies whereas docking tails is bloodless and quick. My 5 1/2 month old puppy with dew claws really uses her paws to grip things and uses her dewclaws to help hold onto toys and chews.

So far as tails, I'll continue to dock tails as long as I'm allowed to as I believe it is a much more balanced look. While i have gotten used to the look of an undocked tail, I very much prefer a docked tail and always will.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:06 PM   #26
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I no longer remove dewclaws on my puppies (although would remove rear dew claws if any puppies ever have any). I bought two dogs from Canada who still had their dewclaws and after having them, saw no reason to remove them any longer. Removing dewclaws caused bleeding and screaming puppies whereas docking tails is bloodless and quick. My 5 1/2 month old puppy with dew claws really uses her paws to grip things and uses her dewclaws to help hold onto toys and chews.

So far as tails, I'll continue to dock tails as long as I'm allowed to as I believe it is a much more balanced look. While i have gotten used to the look of an undocked tail, I very much prefer a docked tail and always will.
Many of the breeders around here describe the dew claws as being their thumbs. Some say they actually need them for balance (not aesthetic balance but referring to balance on their feet). But there are some people who disagree with that. I can understand how you have a firm position on docking tails. I agree it's a more balanced and pleasing look, but at the same time, at least for me, I have come to love a full tail that when it's moving is like a fan and I think is beautiful. I think I could really go either way on the tails.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:19 PM   #27
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My gch razzman has his tail docked to a medium length. We did start agility but did not continue when my own health worsened.

I like both full and moderately docked tails on Yorkies. And I still think it should be breeders choice
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:39 PM   #28
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Jackson has a full tail AND his dew claws... the shame! lol, just kidding.

I mean I am not a fan of legislating things in general when it comes to what I do with my dog. I think it should be left up to the breeder to decide. However I find the process completely useless. Jackson has survived eight years with a full tail and zero issues. I LOVE his tail... he uses it as a propeller to swim, I see how he uses it when it runs, and I believe his dew claws help him gain traction as well when he's running.

I just dislike when people try to find excuses for it like health reasons etc when in today's day and age, they are not working dogs and it is strictly for looks or a standard. Just own up to what it is. The one breed I prefer a crop/dock look on is the Doberman. I do not like the looks of a Doberman au natural. However I'd never have that breed so it's a moot point for me.

I guess I look at tail docking like everything else - we do a lot of 'unnatural' things to do including spaying & neutering. The dog has to go under anesthesia and have a surgery -- I am not sure if it's that is any better than docking when they are 2 days old and won't remember it and have no down time. And while spaying & neutering is looked upon as okay and normal because it's 'healthier' (though that's debatable too...) certain practices such as tail docking are looked at as cruel.

I guess I am all over the place. I find it completely unnecessary and wouldn't choose to have it done to a dog of mine. I wish the standards would allow for both. I find it dumb and pointless. But I don't want to start banning things or legislating things. For example, Golden retrievers have had major studies done showing increase in cancers by being neutered too young. Puppies that I watch, their new owners have a contract that they can NOT neuter prior to 18 months old. I would not want a law to dictate what age my dog is fixed and I think the lines begin to get blurry when things get banned.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:41 PM   #29
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Actually Dr Chris zinc believes a natural tail actually provides critical functions in agility dogs to give functional balance to the dog. At a performance workshop I attended we saw slo mo movies of dogs in action and how important the tail was.
That must have been fascinating going to one of Dr. Zink's workshops. Her credentials are amazing.

All of my Yorkies in the past had dew claws removed. Kate has her front dew claws, and I wondered why when her tail had been docked. Dr, Zink's article gives a good explanation why it's best to leave dew claws intact.

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/...xplanation.pdf
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:43 PM   #30
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Training the canine athlete a must read by dr Chris zinc. Amazon might have it cheap.

You want to have in good shape before first class. Long walks some hill work etc. Sit beg stand amazing back strengthener.
If you have any more links or any more infor on agility or starting agility I would love for you to pm them to me. He is still just 9 months and I heard I shouldn't start agility until a year so we are working on obedience and regular puppy stuff. He knows stay, sit, roll over, beg, lay and come. He's a fast learner.
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