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Old 04-20-2015, 05:51 PM   #151
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I just want to say that I would never not use conventional medicine for my pups. I have had so many different conditions over the years with my own pups and also my fosters and I have never been let down by conventional medicine. The vets I use only suggest what is tested and proven to be successful...they do not use or suggest anything that is not proven to work for whatever condition we are dealing with. There is not a snowball's chance in that hot place down under that I would risk them to treatments that sound good but have no real proven track record.

I have seen so much on the internet about holistic cures for heartworms for instance that are not proven to work. People let their fears of the conventional treatment put their pups at risk with unproven treatments. Any medicine and/or treatment has risks and that goes for holistic ones. The problem with the later is that there isn't the proof of the success and not the same information that is given with the standard ones. People are given the list of side effects for one and not the other and that in my opinion is the problem. I am happy that the FDA is considering overseeing this. Cannot come soon enough.

I have two pups with lymphangectasia and one with protein losing nephropathy. Basically, diet is key in lymphangectasia, but often they need medications...prednisone being one. My Cookie was on prednisone for a very long time...about two years. She needed it! They gave it and tapered it as soon as they could and monitored her closely. No harm done. She is alive and well now and it is 3.5 years after diagnosis. Would herbs have worked? who knows? But the bottom line I would not try to find out since I know the other treatment works. Not ever going to take such chances with my babies. My Olivia is on two blood pressure meds, Ursodiol for her gall bladder and a restricted diet for her PLN and she is doing great! For some time she was on denamarin for her liver. As I said, I believe in mixed treatments, but not substitutes.

I won't take such chances with my own health either. Steve Jobs did that and we all know what happened to him. He later regretted making the choice to go holistic.

I am not saying that there are not some holistic methods that may have some use. I am just saying that I don't believe they should be used as a substitute for what is tested and proven.

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Old 04-20-2015, 07:33 PM   #152
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This will be very interesting and is going on right now.
Homeopathic Product Regulation: Evaluating FDA’s Regulatory Framework After a Quarter-Century

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is announcing a public hearing to obtain information and comments from stakeholders about the current use of human drug and biological products labeled as homeopathic, as well as the Agency’s regulatory framework for such products. These products include prescription drugs and biological products labeled as homeopathic and over-the-counter (OTC) drugs labeled as homeopathic. FDA is seeking participants for the public hearing and written comments from all interested parties, including, but not limited to, consumers, patients, caregivers, health care professionals, patient groups, and industry. FDA is seeking input on a number of specific questions, but is interested in any other pertinent information participants would like to share.
Date

April 20-21, 2015

Time

9:00 am to 4:00 pm

Location

FDA White Oak Campus
10903 New Hampshire Avenue
Bldg. 31, Room 1503A (Great Room)
Silver Spring, Maryland 20993

Public Participation

Registration and Requests for Oral Presentations: Registration for in-person attendance and oral presentations closed at 5 p.m. EST on April 13, 2015.

Streaming Webcast of the Public Hearing: FDA will provide a live Webcast of the hearing. Information about how you can access a live Webcast will be located at Homeopathic Product Regulation.

Federal Register Notice
Submit Comments to the Public Docket
White Oak Campus Visitor Information
Agenda

The agenda (PDF - 105KB) is now available.

Contact Information

CDERhomeopathicproduct@fda.hhs.gov

Homeopathic Product Regulation: Evaluating FDA?s Regulatory Framework After a Quarter-Century
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Old 04-20-2015, 07:55 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
Any one using herbs and holistic stuff needs to be aware that these have not been tested the same way as real medicines and there side effects and long term effects are unknown and some have even been shown to cause severe issues. Has any one heard of St.Johns wart? Natural little supplement that can have some seriously nasty terrible side effects. So not everything natural, herbal and holistic is all the great or even safe in my opinion it is far more dangerous the regular medicines.
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Until they start to test them to the extent as regular medicine and list the warnings and stuff regular medicine will be safer. It's not a closed minded thing. And really all this has nothing to do with a test that has no science to back it up or even syliva testing having no science to back it up. I guess talking about holistic mecdicine brought this up. Even if that herbs and such work it dosent make this test work.

You did mention herbs
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:09 PM   #154
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You did mention herbs
Huh??
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:51 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
Until they start to test them to the extent as regular medicine and list the warnings and stuff regular medicine will be safer. It's not a closed minded thing. And really all this has nothing to do with a test that has no science to back it up or even syliva testing having no science to back it up. I guess talking about holistic mecdicine brought this up. Even if that herbs and such work it dosent make this test work.
Ever research how many MILLIONS of people die from your "safer" medicine? I'd encourage you to do this before making a blanket, generalized statement like this. Imo, this can be a very dangerous opinion to ascribe to if you really believe this.

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I definitely hear what you're saying, but I don't believe conventional medicine is always safer. Some medication is very toxic, and there may be some herbal medications that are safer. Chinese medicine has been around for a very long time. That doesn't necessarily make it safe, but it doesn't mean they are necessarily not safe. The same is true about conventional medicine. I have to take conventional medications, but there are side effects to all medications.

I used to be skeptical, but I've seen Chinese medication work. That does not mean that I don't use conventional medication for Katie and me. I would definitely have to know something about who was making them, just like I want to know about the company who makes vitamins I take.
EXACTLY. Any of us who've spent 2 minutes working in the medical field have a responsibility to be honest about just how many people die and/or have severe side effects from these "safe, scientifically tested" meds every single solitary day. Let's not pretend that the FDA isn't a colossal mess, as it has been for decades, that is actually run by former drug company executives!!! If that's not a racket - a serious conflict of interest entity - then I don't know what is. "Scientifically tested" and "approved by the FDA" does NOT = just plain safe. It means it's safe for a majority and that's an important distinction to those in the minority who either die from the drug or have severe / debilitating side effects.
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Old 04-21-2015, 05:02 AM   #156
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Ever research how many MILLIONS of people die from your "safer" medicine? I'd encourage you to do this before making a blanket, generalized statement like this. Imo, this can be a very dangerous opinion to ascribe to if you really believe this.



EXACTLY. Any of us who've spent 2 minutes working in the medical field have a responsibility to be honest about just how many people die and/or have severe side effects from these "safe, scientifically tested" meds every single solitary day. Let's not pretend that the FDA isn't a colossal mess, as it has been for decades, that is actually run by former drug company executives!!! If that's not a racket - a serious conflict of interest entity - then I don't know what is. "Scientifically tested" and "approved by the FDA" does NOT = just plain safe. It means it's safe for a majority and that's an important distinction to those in the minority who either die from the drug or have severe / debilitating side effects.


Well said in that yours is a balanced view of the pros/cons of approved medication as it pertains to the masses and the minorities. It is important to be well-informed re: any medicinal option with respect to efficacy, side effects and risk vs benefit analysis.


It is important to remember that marketed medication is tested under rigorous conditions before approval (hence some of the long approval times for meds like Alzheimer's etc) but cannot take into account every potential eventuality in every individual circumstance. Also, we have to admit that research is funded by pharmaceutical companies so there is a conflict of interest to a degree. (Arguably, a large degree in some instances).


However, the danger with some 'natural' or 'holistic' alternatives is that the research there can be even more limited.


Therefore, it is important to make evidence based decisions and one can only do this by researching on the basis of empirical research conclusions AND personal circumstance.


For example, NSAIDS (like ibuprofen) are said to be just as effective as morphine in pain relief. This is great! A 'proven' pain reliever, which is cheap and easily obtainable by the population. However, further research shows that NSAIDS should not be used by certain populations i.e. those on other medications or who have co-morbidities such as gastritis, for example. Therefore, although this particular 'proven' medicine is great for the MASSES it can have dire consequences for the minority.
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Old 04-21-2015, 05:55 AM   #157
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Well said in that yours is a balanced view of the pros/cons of approved medication as it pertains to the masses and the minorities. It is important to be well-informed re: any medicinal option with respect to efficacy, side effects and risk vs benefit analysis.


It is important to remember that marketed medication is tested under rigorous conditions before approval (hence some of the long approval times for meds like Alzheimer's etc) but cannot take into account every potential eventuality in every individual circumstance. Also, we have to admit that research is funded by pharmaceutical companies so there is a conflict of interest to a degree. (Arguably, a large degree in some instances).


However, the danger with some 'natural' or 'holistic' alternatives is that the research there can be even more limited.


Therefore, it is important to make evidence based decisions and one can only do this by researching on the basis of empirical research conclusions AND personal circumstance.


For example, NSAIDS (like ibuprofen) are said to be just as effective as morphine in pain relief. This is great! A 'proven' pain reliever, which is cheap and easily obtainable by the population. However, further research shows that NSAIDS should not be used by certain populations i.e. those on other medications or who have co-morbidities such as gastritis, for example. Therefore, although this particular 'proven' medicine is great for the MASSES it can have dire consequences for the minority.
Exactly. Not only is holistic or natural medicine more limited in research, there is often NO research. And no oversight.
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:17 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by ladyjane View Post
I just want to say that I would never not use conventional medicine for my pups. I have had so many different conditions over the years with my own pups and also my fosters and I have never been let down by conventional medicine. The vets I use only suggest what is tested and proven to be successful...they do not use or suggest anything that is not proven to work for whatever condition we are dealing with. There is not a snowball's chance in that hot place down under that I would risk them to treatments that sound good but have no real proven track record.

I have seen so much on the internet about holistic cures for heartworms for instance that are not proven to work. People let their fears of the conventional treatment put their pups at risk with unproven treatments. Any medicine and/or treatment has risks and that goes for holistic ones. The problem with the later is that there isn't the proof of the success and not the same information that is given with the standard ones. People are given the list of side effects for one and not the other and that in my opinion is the problem. I am happy that the FDA is considering overseeing this. Cannot come soon enough.

I have two pups with lymphangectasia and one with protein losing nephropathy. Basically, diet is key in lymphangectasia, but often they need medications...prednisone being one. My Cookie was on prednisone for a very long time...about two years. She needed it! They gave it and tapered it as soon as they could and monitored her closely. No harm done. She is alive and well now and it is 3.5 years after diagnosis. Would herbs have worked? who knows? But the bottom line I would not try to find out since I know the other treatment works. Not ever going to take such chances with my babies. My Olivia is on two blood pressure meds, Ursodiol for her gall bladder and a restricted diet for her PLN and she is doing great! For some time she was on denamarin for her liver. As I said, I believe in mixed treatments, but not substitutes.

I won't take such chances with my own health either. Steve Jobs did that and we all know what happened to him. He later regretted making the choice to go holistic.

I am not saying that there are not some holistic methods that may have some use. I am just saying that I don't believe they should be used as a substitute for what is tested and proven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTeddykins View Post
Well said in that yours is a balanced view of the pros/cons of approved medication as it pertains to the masses and the minorities. It is important to be well-informed re: any medicinal option with respect to efficacy, side effects and risk vs benefit analysis.


It is important to remember that marketed medication is tested under rigorous conditions before approval (hence some of the long approval times for meds like Alzheimer's etc) but cannot take into account every potential eventuality in every individual circumstance. Also, we have to admit that research is funded by pharmaceutical companies so there is a conflict of interest to a degree. (Arguably, a large degree in some instances).


However, the danger with some 'natural' or 'holistic' alternatives is that the research there can be even more limited.


Therefore, it is important to make evidence based decisions and one can only do this by researching on the basis of empirical research conclusions AND personal circumstance.


For example, NSAIDS (like ibuprofen) are said to be just as effective as morphine in pain relief. This is great! A 'proven' pain reliever, which is cheap and easily obtainable by the population. However, further research shows that NSAIDS should not be used by certain populations i.e. those on other medications or who have co-morbidities such as gastritis, for example. Therefore, although this particular 'proven' medicine is great for the MASSES it can have dire consequences for the minority.
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Originally Posted by 107barney View Post
Exactly. Not only is holistic or natural medicine more limited in research, there is often NO research. And no oversight.
I agree .. I said that in my post. Note highlighted text above.
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:32 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
Ever research how many MILLIONS of people die from your "safer" medicine? I'd encourage you to do this before making a blanket, generalized statement like this. Imo, this can be a very dangerous opinion to ascribe to if you really believe this.



EXACTLY. Any of us who've spent 2 minutes working in the medical field have a responsibility to be honest about just how many people die and/or have severe side effects from these "safe, scientifically tested" meds every single solitary day. Let's not pretend that the FDA isn't a colossal mess, as it has been for decades, that is actually run by former drug company executives!!! If that's not a racket - a serious conflict of interest entity - then I don't know what is. "Scientifically tested" and "approved by the FDA" does NOT = just plain safe. It means it's safe for a majority and that's an important distinction to those in the minority who either die from the drug or have severe / debilitating side effects.
I couldn't agree more on this. Whenever I hear the FDA approved of a medical product, it means nothing to me. The ties between the FDA and the pharmaceutical industry runs very deep, and the corruption is real and scary between the two. All anyone has to do is a search to see just how bad this has become. The Food and Drug Administration receives more than half of its funding from the drug companies, whose very products it is assessing and approving, this makes for a huge conflict of interest. The FDA also hires former drug company employees and vice versa, this is another conflict of interest when these people have a stock options in the very company they are supposed to police.

We have a false sense of security that drugs go under rigorous testing and are scrutinized for safety before being approved but this couldn't be farther from the truth. Just take a look and some of the drugs removed from the market in the past 10-15 years, were they not tested and approved? The deaths and injuries connected to dangerous drugs that never should have been approved typically go unreported so the public never really knows the frequency this is happening.

This is a quote from a person who worked in the industry.....

According to Marcia Angell, former editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM): 3 “Any reputable journal is at the mercy of what is submitted to it and must choose from whatever comes over the transom. Many studies never see the light of day because their findings are negative. There is a heavy bias toward positive studies, and this negative bias is a real problem. A company may conduct 1,000 trials; if two are positive, they get FDA approval and are published. The other 998 never see the light of day. In fact, half of all study data is never published.”

When our own medical system is listed in the top three causes of deaths in the US there is a huge problem. Recently, there was a study done evaluating the health care system in eleven countries, including the US. The US health care system scored at the bottom in some of the categories. We don't have the best medical system in the world, ours is broken and we are at it's mercy.

There's also the issue of deaths caused by properly prescribed and properly administered drugs, which accounts for 106,000 every year. Personally, I believe this number is actually higher than this because not every death is recorded as such. If this number of deaths were attached to supplements there would be such outrage and a call for tougher regulations, but since it's pharmaceuticals it's chalked up the risk vs benefit equation, even though these deaths weren't supposed to happen.

Many aren't even aware that the pharmaceutical companies have gotten so greedy they are now outsourcing the manufacturing of the drugs we are consuming. Over 80% of them are now being made in China and India. The FDA is not able to inspect these factories, they just don't have the funding to send inspectors out of the country to oversee the quality control standards in these factories, so we are all at risk when consuming these drugs. Some people won't buy a household product made in China or buy a jerky treat for our pets, but we will trust the drugs without question. Some of the questions I'm concerned with are are they putting in the active ingredient? Are they putting in the correct dosage of the active ingredient? Are they putting is toxic fillers?..... Who knows since no one is watching or checking.
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:37 AM   #160
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I couldn't agree more on this. Whenever I hear the FDA approved of a medical product, it means nothing to me. The ties between the FDA and the pharmaceutical industry runs very deep, and the corruption is real and scary between the two. All anyone has to do is a search to see just how bad this has become. The Food and Drug Administration receives more than half of its funding from the drug companies, whose very products it is assessing and approving, this makes for a huge conflict of interest. The FDA also hires former drug company employees and vice versa, this is another conflict of interest when these people have a stock options in the very company they are supposed to police.

We have a false sense of security that drugs go under rigorous testing and are scrutinized for safety before being approved but this couldn't be farther from the truth. Just take a look and some of the drugs removed from the market in the past 10-15 years, were they not tested and approved? The deaths and injuries connected to dangerous drugs that never should have been approved typically go unreported so the public never really knows the frequency this is happening.

This is a quote from a person who worked in the industry.....

According to Marcia Angell, former editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM): 3 “Any reputable journal is at the mercy of what is submitted to it and must choose from whatever comes over the transom. Many studies never see the light of day because their findings are negative. There is a heavy bias toward positive studies, and this negative bias is a real problem. A company may conduct 1,000 trials; if two are positive, they get FDA approval and are published. The other 998 never see the light of day. In fact, half of all study data is never published.”

When our own medical system is listed in the top three causes of deaths in the US there is a huge problem. Recently, there was a study done evaluating the health care system in eleven countries, including the US. The US health care system scored at the bottom in some of the categories. We don't have the best medical system in the world, ours is broken and we are at it's mercy.

There's also the issue of deaths caused by properly prescribed and properly administered drugs, which accounts for 106,000 every year. Personally, I believe this number is actually higher than this because not every death is recorded as such. If this number of deaths were attached to supplements there would be such outrage and a call for tougher regulations, but since it's pharmaceuticals it's chalked up the risk vs benefit equation, even though these deaths weren't supposed to happen.

Many aren't even aware that the pharmaceutical companies have gotten so greedy they are now outsourcing the manufacturing of the drugs we are consuming. Over 80% of them are now being made in China and India. The FDA is not able to inspect these factories, they just don't have the funding to send inspectors out of the country to oversee the quality control standards in these factories, so we are all at risk when consuming these drugs. Some people won't buy a household product made in China or buy a jerky treat for our pets, but we will trust the drugs without question. Some of the questions I'm concerned with are are they putting in the active ingredient? Are they putting in the correct dosage of the active ingredient? Are they putting is toxic fillers?..... Who knows since no one is watching or checking.

I do agree with some of what you have said but I think it is very dangerous to dismiss all drugs on the basis of bias etc. Alzheimer's drugs, MS drugs and even influenza, measles, mumps, rubella and POLO have all benefitted from reduced symptomology, delay in progression or eradicated altogether.


Lots of people claim drugs are responsible for a lot of things negative and dismiss all of the positive which is why some of these diseases, like measles etc. have resurfaced amongst children. A lot of people forget that measles can and DOES kill and inoculations are the reason so many kids have been saved from death.


I think bias is something to be aware of but it isn't the be all and end all in terms of medicinal efficacy for humans or non-human animals.
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:37 AM   #161
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Something I believe everyone posting in support of unproven medical treatments should read.

Steve Jobs 'regretted trying to beat cancer with alternative medicine for so long' - Telegraph
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:42 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by SirTeddykins View Post
I do agree with some of what you have said but I think it is very dangerous to dismiss all drugs on the basis of bias etc. Alzheimer's drugs, MS drugs and even influenza, measles, mumps, rubella and POLO have all benefitted from reduced symptomology, delay in progression or eradicated altogether.


Lots of people claim drugs are responsible for a lot of things negative and dismiss all of the positive which is why some of these diseases, like measles etc. have resurfaced amongst children. A lot of people forget that measles can and DOES kill and inoculations are the reason so many kids have been saved from death.


I think bias is something to be aware of but it isn't the be all and end all in terms of medicinal efficacy for humans or non-human animals.
Well said Misty! It's nice to have not one but two scientists on YT!
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:13 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by SirTeddykins View Post
I do agree with some of what you have said but I think it is very dangerous to dismiss all drugs on the basis of bias etc. Alzheimer's drugs, MS drugs and even influenza, measles, mumps, rubella and POLO have all benefitted from reduced symptomology, delay in progression or eradicated altogether.


Lots of people claim drugs are responsible for a lot of things negative and dismiss all of the positive which is why some of these diseases, like measles etc. have resurfaced amongst children. A lot of people forget that measles can and DOES kill and inoculations are the reason so many kids have been saved from death.


I think bias is something to be aware of but it isn't the be all and end all in terms of medicinal efficacy for humans or non-human animals.
I guess I'm trying to say the approval process has gone down a slippery slope. The connection between the FDA and the pharmaceutical company has become broken and what was once a agency looking out for the public's best interest has become one of making money for stock holders. The only reason the pharmaceutic companies would outsource to China and India is for bigger profits, it certainly wasn't for safety or quality. It is a fact the FDA cannot inspect these factories, which puts us all at risk.

If my post gave the impression there are no beneficial drugs on the market that was not my intent.What I am saying is the pharmaceutical companies are manipulating and hiding clinical trials in order to get drugs on the market that should not have been approved. This is not about bias but about deception and fraud, this should never happen. It's also about safety and effectiveness not about whether we have some beneficial drugs on the market. Of course we do have some of benefit but it's the other that are the problem

The concerns about safety and effectiveness, quality of the product and the risks vs benefits ratio should apply to all drugs, whether it be synthetic or supplements and herbs. If we would find it acceptable having tens of thousands of deaths connected to supplements then synthetics shouldn't get a pass either.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:31 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
Ever research how many MILLIONS of people die from your "safer" medicine? I'd encourage you to do this before making a blanket, generalized statement like this. Imo, this can be a very dangerous opinion to ascribe to if you really believe this.



EXACTLY. Any of us who've spent 2 minutes working in the medical field have a responsibility to be honest about just how many people die and/or have severe side effects from these "safe, scientifically tested" meds every single solitary day. Let's not pretend that the FDA isn't a colossal mess, as it has been for decades, that is actually run by former drug company executives!!! If that's not a racket - a serious conflict of interest entity - then I don't know what is. "Scientifically tested" and "approved by the FDA" does NOT = just plain safe. It means it's safe for a majority and that's an important distinction to those in the minority who either die from the drug or have severe / debilitating side effects.
But we don't have the number on supplements and herbs and they can have extremely serious side effects when mixed with certain medicines and just on there own but because there is no one regulating and testing them there are no warnings on the bottle. For all we know those numbers could be even higher mostly because you don't know what you can and can't mix them with or side effects. Like I mentioned take a look at st.Johns wart that is some scary stuff but nothing on the bottle about the terrible stuff it can cause and do you have to do extensive research on it to find out. Whether you like the FDA or not there needs to be someone controlling and testing these things just like other medicines. For all anyone knows long term use of these can cause scary stuff to but know ones knows.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:46 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
But we don't have the number on supplements and herbs and they can have extremely serious side effects when mixed with certain medicines and just on there own but because there is no one regulating and testing them there are no warnings on the bottle. For all we know those numbers could be even higher mostly because you don't know what you can and can't mix them with or side effects. Like I mentioned take a look at st.Johns wart that is some scary stuff but nothing on the bottle about the terrible stuff it can cause and do you have to do extensive research on it to find out. Whether you like the FDA or not there needs to be someone controlling and testing these things just like other medicines. For all anyone knows long term use of these can cause scary stuff to but know ones knows.
Agreed. The FDA is grossly underfunded, and that's one reason they are accepting user fees from pharmaceutical companies. I imagine that once they start testing supplements and herbs, they will be accepting user fees from those companies as well. There DOES need to be federal oversight of medicines--otherwise it would be the wild wild west with snake oil salesmen and all. Full federal funding of the FDA would help eliminate potential conflicts of interest. Until then, warts and all, the FDA is the best we have.
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