Sad day for America

[Opium88]

This just sucks. I'm thinking I may have to consider re-homing my tyrant. Toby, ( my 10 lb Teapot ) has been getting a bit too aggressive towards Izzy. It's only when she's got something he wants ( which includes ANYTHING she's playing with, even if he has one himself that is exactly the same). He obsesses to an unhealthy degree. Like nothing else exists but her and that chew toy. And as soon as you give any slack on him he lunges for her and he used to just snatch it from her and bail, but now you hear them scuffle and she ends up yelping like a scream and curling up before one of us intervenes . Toby has been to training, and I've tried to teach him to leave it, or to stay... But he's so stubborn he just won't comply . Not when it counts anyway. The addition to this problem is that my boyfriend is fiercely protective over Izzy ever since the tragedy last year that took her sister from us, and last night when he actually hurt izzy it was Scott that intervened and when he grabbed a hold of Toby he had actual rage in his eyes. I had to tell him to back off that's enough right now, because I could tell that it wasn't registering in Scott's head that Toby was A) still a small dog and could be hurt B) already frozen in fear or C) not going to miraculously understand logic and apologize. I knew all he wanted to do was anhialate anything that hurt Izzy, didn't matter what it was. And when I told him that was enough , no more- he let him go and went upstairs and stayed up there for a good half hour just cooling off. Then it happened again this morning, although Scott did handle it much better, I can see this is going to be a major issue. We put a muzzle on Toby now if we leave so he can't hurt her. It just seems that ever since last week when I took him to the groomer and he got so freaked out about the sap on his paws and turned all vicious, biting and snarling and scratching at not only her but me too... That he has lost his feeling for knowing his bite limit. He used to only gnaw to a certain point and ease up. And if it me he would immediately switch to licking instead biting. But now he's much quicker to pull his lip back and get s**tty. I've been working on it with him, and I seem to be able to diffuse him pretty easily, but I can't always be the one he's reacting to and I don't always have treats in my hand to distract and diffuse. And izzy can't EVER have anything in her mouth at all or this comes about. I'm getting a real glum feeling about this, and I'm usually the great compromiser, fixer of issues, and can more than not find a way to have anything work out with all parties happy. But I sense impending doom on this one. I'm thinking maybe Toby just needs to be an only child. Or little brother to a dog he has a good healthy sense of respect for limits to...because I'm afraid either him or izzy will inevitably end up hurt if this goes on. And I hate that, because I don't just give up on my creatures. They aren't an "option" to me. I always find a way to correct behavior and everyone lives happily ever after together. I don't ever even consider giving one of my dogs up. But if I don't want him to end up hurt for his behavior, what am I supposed to do? I'm so stressed out. Sorry for this being so long.

[Dayswalters]

Is it possible for you to find a dog behaviorist? They might be able to help you address the problem. Also, if your boyfriend loses it to the point of violence towards your dog, that would definitely be a consideration for both you and your dog.

[matese]

wow, just wow, believe me, I know where you're coming from. Truly, if I were in your shoes I don't know what I would do. When I had my 3 pack (all females) they got along beautifully, every once in a while the youngest one would try to steal a treat from the older one, I would stop her, it was rare she did this. The only advise I can offer is keep working with Toby on this new behavior. I wouldn't trust him with a muzzle left totally alone with Izzy, I would separate them rather then leave them together while you are gone. I know this has to be a very hard decision for you. Re-homing Toby for a 3rd time, poor lil guy. I know you'll do what's right and best for all concerned.

[Opium88]

His level of protectiveness over izzy is perfectly understandable actually. I don't blame him one bit for that. We started out with both izzy and her sister, Marley. And he was so attached to Marley ( and Scott has never been emotionally connected to an animal like this before, mind you) and she managed somehow to get trapped underneath the bed ( not on a frame) and we thought she had gotten out somehow. This kills me to even write this. We and five of our friends searched for hours and hours. Searched the house and a three mile radius door to door frantically searching for her. And then he had to go to bed. I put up flyers until 6 am before laying down with him. And never heard a single sound. And then 17 hours after she went missing, while he was at work I heard a single whimper and I rushed upstairs and tore that bed up like a crazy bitch and there she was. She was soooo hot and sweaty and limp... And when I picked her up she looked at me and shuddered and died. I lost my mind. I carried her into our clinic screaming for them to help her. I held her for hours and then Scott held her for hours inconsolable. It really messed with our heads and proved to us how very fragile their little lives really are. And that simple fact is so deeply ingrained to him now, and he is so attached to Izzy that he won't even allow the thought of anything hurting her, much less actually hurting her. And her and Toby play fight like crazy. We call it Yorkie UFC... And she will usually get the best of Toby despite the size difference. And she will yelp sometimes. But this is a different degree of yelping now.hes actually hurting her and not easing up. So he's not being overly sensitive to her crying out. Toby just lost his give a s**t it seems. I felt the need to explain all that so you know where Scott's protectiveness stems from and why. Once again, sorry if it was too long

[Lovetodream88]

Well putting a muzzle on him when your gone is going to keep him from being able to drink water so you need to separate them not put a muzzle on him. It seems strange to me people always want to rehome the problem one. There the ones who need the help. You have to realize with issues like that he may never find a home, could end up being put to sleep or even worse abused physically. In my opinion before giving up a dog you should try everything you can meaning trainers and behaviorists after a regular vet check. But this is becoming a dangerous situation if your bf can not control his temper because if he abuses the dog not only is Toby going to have his issues he has now but then he is going to have fear issues. In my opinion if your bf can't control his anger it would worry me to the point of not having any pets or ditching the bf because something terrible could happen when your not around to stop it and that's not fair for any dog.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Opium88

His level of protectiveness over izzy is perfectly understandable actually. I don't blame him one bit for that. We started out with both izzy and her sister, Marley. And he was so attached to Marley ( and Scott has never been emotionally connected to an animal like this before, mind you) and she managed somehow to get trapped underneath the bed ( not on a frame) and we thought she had gotten out somehow. This kills me to even write this. We and five of our friends searched for hours and hours. Searched the house and a three mile radius door to door frantically searching for her. And then he had to go to bed. I put up flyers until 6 am before laying down with him. And never heard a single sound. And then 17 hours after she went missing, while he was at work I heard a single whimper and I rushed upstairs and tore that bed up like a crazy bitch and there she was. She was soooo hot and sweaty and limp... And when I picked her up she looked at me and shuddered and died. I lost my mind. I carried her into our clinic screaming for them to help her. I held her for hours and then Scott held her for hours inconsolable. It really messed with our heads and proved to us how very fragile their little lives really are. And that simple fact is so deeply ingrained to him now, and he is so attached to Izzy that he won't even allow the thought of anything hurting her, much less actually hurting her. And her and Toby play fight like crazy. We call it Yorkie UFC... And she will usually get the best of Toby despite the size difference. And she will yelp sometimes. But this is a different degree of yelping now.hes actually hurting her and not easing up. So he's not being overly sensitive to her crying out. Toby just lost his give a s**t it seems. I felt the need to explain all that so you know where Scott's protectiveness stems from and why. Once again, sorry if it was too long

I'm sorry for what happened but that's not an excuse to lose your cool with an animal like that. It really scares me that he did that and I fear for Toby.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Well putting a muzzle on him when your gone is going to keep him from being able to drink water so you need to separate them not put a muzzle on him. It seems strange to me people always want to rehome the problem one. There the ones who need the help. You have to realize with issues like that he may never find a home, could end up being put to sleep or even worse abused physically. In my opinion before giving up a dog you should try everything you can meaning trainers and behaviorists after a regular vet check. But this is becoming a dangerous situation if your bf can not control his temper because if he abuses the dog not only is Toby going to have his issues he has now but then he is going to have fear issues. In my opinion if your bf can't control his anger it would worry me to the point of not having any pets or ditching the bf because something terrible could happen when your not around to stop it and that's not fair for any dog.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I'm sorry for what happened but that's not an excuse to lose your cool with an animal like that. It really scares me that he did that and I fear for Toby.

Totally agree. I cannot believe the excuses for what amounts to abuse of a dog. He is not a human, he is a dog. Your b/f needs anger management if he cannot control himself with a tiny dog. I personally would not be with a person who acted in such a manner...it is very scary to read about to be perfectly honest.

I am in Houston...if you can get your pup to me, I will take him. I have met only a rare dog that could not get along with others. What I WILL tell you is that whoever you turn him over to should be questioned thoroughly to be sure they won't just euthanize him rather than help him....although he probably won't be like that in another home. I have a feeling he is a very unhappy boy. Makes me very sad.

You probably won't like this and I almost hate to write it, but I have to. I just cannot believe the excuses you have for this. I hope you will realize what you are saying here.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Toby sounds like a dog who badly needs a rehome quickly. If you could get him to Linda(ladyjane) in Houston, it would mean he has a chance at another life in the forever home of another Yorkielover - maybe even where he's an only-dog or a home with a strong, gentle leader who has the time and dog skills to help modify his behavior. I strongly encourage you to give him a second chance away from his present dangerous situation.

[calismama]

Originally Posted by Opium88

This just sucks. I'm thinking I may have to consider re-homing my tyrant. Toby, ( my 10 lb Teapot ) has been getting a bit too aggressive towards Izzy. It's only when she's got something he wants ( which includes ANYTHING she's playing with, even if he has one himself that is exactly the same). He obsesses to an unhealthy degree. Like nothing else exists but her and that chew toy. And as soon as you give any slack on him he lunges for her and he used to just snatch it from her and bail, but now you hear them scuffle and she ends up yelping like a scream and curling up before one of us intervenes . Toby has been to training, and I've tried to teach him to leave it, or to stay... But he's so stubborn he just won't comply . Not when it counts anyway. The addition to this problem is that my boyfriend is fiercely protective over Izzy ever since the tragedy last year that took her sister from us, and last night when he actually hurt izzy it was Scott that intervened and when he grabbed a hold of Toby he had actual rage in his eyes. I had to tell him to back off that's enough right now, because I could tell that it wasn't registering in Scott's head that Toby was A) still a small dog and could be hurt B) already frozen in fear or C) not going to miraculously understand logic and apologize. I knew all he wanted to do was anhialate anything that hurt Izzy, didn't matter what it was. And when I told him that was enough , no more- he let him go and went upstairs and stayed up there for a good half hour just cooling off. Then it happened again this morning, although Scott did handle it much better, I can see this is going to be a major issue. We put a muzzle on Toby now if we leave so he can't hurt her. It just seems that ever since last week when I took him to the groomer and he got so freaked out about the sap on his paws and turned all vicious, biting and snarling and scratching at not only her but me too... That he has lost his feeling for knowing his bite limit. He used to only gnaw to a certain point and ease up. And if it me he would immediately switch to licking instead biting. But now he's much quicker to pull his lip back and get s**tty. I've been working on it with him, and I seem to be able to diffuse him pretty easily, but I can't always be the one he's reacting to and I don't always have treats in my hand to distract and diffuse. And izzy can't EVER have anything in her mouth at all or this comes about. I'm getting a real glum feeling about this, and I'm usually the great compromiser, fixer of issues, and can more than not find a way to have anything work out with all parties happy. But I sense impending doom on this one. I'm thinking maybe Toby just needs to be an only child. Or little brother to a dog he has a good healthy sense of respect for limits to...because I'm afraid either him or izzy will inevitably end up hurt if this goes on. And I hate that, because I don't just give up on my creatures. They aren't an "option" to me. I always find a way to correct behavior and everyone lives happily ever after together. I don't ever even consider giving one of my dogs up. But if I don't want him to end up hurt for his behavior, what am I supposed to do? I'm so stressed out. Sorry for this being so long.

Please let ladyjane take him and help him out.

[BorderKelpie]

I agree, I think rehoming Toby with ladyjane would help reduce stress all over. You and your BF need time to recover from your recent tragedy with Marley and get back into a proper routine with Izzy. Toby may be acting out over the change in dynamics in the household and until everything is 'normal,' he will probably continue to act out.

Toby needs structure and guidance and I think you and BF have a few other issues to work on. Toby will be well loved and managed, you will still be able to stay in touch with him and I think it will be a huge relief to you all.

I wish all of you the very best.

[Opium88]

Well, the trainer comes back from her vacation soon and she said we will work with Toby on this. If the situation doesn't improve I will most definitely give him to ladyjane. I don't know anyone out here that is as mindful of their dogs as yorkies require (vet visits etc) to feel comfortable enough in handing him over... And he really needs a yard cause he has so much energy and even though we always take them out to the park and let them run themselves exhausted, which is enough for izzy, it's never enough for Toby. And we live in a small loft. So he could probably use a little more space. It's really hard to think of giving him up, but if he isn't happy I will. And regarding what LovetoDream said about people always wanting to re home the problem one- I have never even considered that with any dog before now. And this time it isn't because I don't want to deal with his issues, it's because I don't want him hurting izzy and getting hurt himself. Not because I find him a problem.i don't half ass my responsibilities with animals. I had my pit bull, Chewy, for 17 1/2 years before I i made the decision to put him down. That's a long life for a pit bull for one, so I obviously took care of him well, and I had him his entire life. So no, I don't have a habit of giving up on my dogs. But if it comes to that being a better option for Toby , yes, I will drive him to Houston. And yes, I'll drive the entire 12 hours myself instead of doing the easier thing like sending him on a plane. I actually volunteer at the animal shelter here and I'm not ignorant to the issue of perfectly good animals being euthanized senselessly because of people who can't think past themselves. I am not one of those people. But if the situation isn't going to be a happy home life for either dog I will look past my own wants to the option of giving Toby a chance at something better. I'm not perfect and no one here can say they are either. But I am not a self absorbed person that believes passing off my animals is the easy option either.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Opium88

Well, the trainer comes back from her vacation soon and she said we will work with Toby on this. If the situation doesn't improve I will most definitely give him to ladyjane. I don't know anyone out here that is as mindful of their dogs as yorkies require (vet visits etc) to feel comfortable enough in handing him over... And he really needs a yard cause he has so much energy and even though we always take them out to the park and let them run themselves exhausted, which is enough for izzy, it's never enough for Toby. And we live in a small loft. So he could probably use a little more space. It's really hard to think of giving him up, but if he isn't happy I will. And regarding what LovetoDream said about people always wanting to re home the problem one- I have never even considered that with any dog before now. And this time it isn't because I don't want to deal with his issues, it's because I don't want him hurting izzy and getting hurt himself. Not because I find him a problem.i don't half ass my responsibilities with animals. I had my pit bull, Chewy, for 17 1/2 years before I i made the decision to put him down. That's a long life for a pit bull for one, so I obviously took care of him well, and I had him his entire life. So no, I don't have a habit of giving up on my dogs. But if it comes to that being a better option for Toby , yes, I will drive him to Houston. And yes, I'll drive the entire 12 hours myself instead of doing the easier thing like sending him on a plane. I actually volunteer at the animal shelter here and I'm not ignorant to the issue of perfectly good animals being euthanized senselessly because of people who can't think past themselves. I am not one of those people. But if the situation isn't going to be a happy home life for either dog I will look past my own wants to the option of giving Toby a chance at something better. I'm not perfect and no one here can say they are either. But I am not a self absorbed person that believes passing off my animals is the easy option either.

Is your home safe for Toby is the big question. I am terrified your bf is going to do something to him. It just does not sound safe for him. What if he does draw blood from your female? Is your bf going to severely hurt and injure him and lose control? He obviously he favors one over the other so is Toby going to be treated unfairly?

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Opium88

Well, the trainer comes back from her vacation soon and she said we will work with Toby on this. If the situation doesn't improve I will most definitely give him to ladyjane. I don't know anyone out here that is as mindful of their dogs as yorkies require (vet visits etc) to feel comfortable enough in handing him over... And he really needs a yard cause he has so much energy and even though we always take them out to the park and let them run themselves exhausted, which is enough for izzy, it's never enough for Toby. And we live in a small loft. So he could probably use a little more space. It's really hard to think of giving him up, but if he isn't happy I will. And regarding what LovetoDream said about people always wanting to re home the problem one- I have never even considered that with any dog before now. And this time it isn't because I don't want to deal with his issues, it's because I don't want him hurting izzy and getting hurt himself. Not because I find him a problem.i don't half ass my responsibilities with animals. I had my pit bull, Chewy, for 17 1/2 years before I i made the decision to put him down. That's a long life for a pit bull for one, so I obviously took care of him well, and I had him his entire life. So no, I don't have a habit of giving up on my dogs. But if it comes to that being a better option for Toby , yes, I will drive him to Houston. And yes, I'll drive the entire 12 hours myself instead of doing the easier thing like sending him on a plane. I actually volunteer at the animal shelter here and I'm not ignorant to the issue of perfectly good animals being euthanized senselessly because of people who can't think past themselves. I am not one of those people. But if the situation isn't going to be a happy home life for either dog I will look past my own wants to the option of giving Toby a chance at something better. I'm not perfect and no one here can say they are either. But I am not a self absorbed person that believes passing off my animals is the easy option either.

Good luck...I hope that you can work things out. I am sending you a PM

[Opium88]

I am the one that is with them around the clock. Scott is only around them for a few hours at a time. And he handled it much better last time, so I'm pretty confident that he will keep his temper. He doesn't want to hurt Toby. He does regret the way he reacted, and said he wouldn't do that again. And in the two years of our relationship he's always kept his word on anything he's said to me. We just do our best to distract Toby before he has time to act on his fixation . So so far it's been better. I won't allow anything like that to happen again.and he actively works to prevent it too by playing with Toby the minute he starts fixating . That is an improvement over just getting defensive over her after the fact.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Opium88

Well, the trainer comes back from her vacation soon and she said we will work with Toby on this. If the situation doesn't improve I will most definitely give him to ladyjane. I don't know anyone out here that is as mindful of their dogs as yorkies require (vet visits etc) to feel comfortable enough in handing him over... And he really needs a yard cause he has so much energy and even though we always take them out to the park and let them run themselves exhausted, which is enough for izzy, it's never enough for Toby. And we live in a small loft. So he could probably use a little more space. It's really hard to think of giving him up, but if he isn't happy I will. And regarding what LovetoDream said about people always wanting to re home the problem one- I have never even considered that with any dog before now. And this time it isn't because I don't want to deal with his issues, it's because I don't want him hurting izzy and getting hurt himself. Not because I find him a problem.i don't half ass my responsibilities with animals. I had my pit bull, Chewy, for 17 1/2 years before I i made the decision to put him down. That's a long life for a pit bull for one, so I obviously took care of him well, and I had him his entire life. So no, I don't have a habit of giving up on my dogs. But if it comes to that being a better option for Toby , yes, I will drive him to Houston. And yes, I'll drive the entire 12 hours myself instead of doing the easier thing like sending him on a plane. I actually volunteer at the animal shelter here and I'm not ignorant to the issue of perfectly good animals being euthanized senselessly because of people who can't think past themselves. I am not one of those people. But if the situation isn't going to be a happy home life for either dog I will look past my own wants to the option of giving Toby a chance at something better. I'm not perfect and no one here can say they are either. But I am not a self absorbed person that believes passing off my animals is the easy option either.

If you're going to keep him, I would strongly suggest you keep the two dogs apart or else have no toys or chewies, food bowls, etc., down that they can fight over and watch them like a hawk until retraining is beginning to pay off. Feed them separately. Study the behavior, body attitude and look of the dogs before a fight and you will be able - in a very short time - to see when one dog sends a signal to the other dog that lights a spark in him or her and the fight is on. Look for an any signs of dominance such as a paw on the other's withers or face, trying to mount the other, crowding him with his body, running the other one away from an area using his stare, body or bared teeth, stealing resources.

Be on the lookout for an intent look, focused look at the other dog, perked up ears, very still, tense body, tight mouth/maybe teeth showing, slightly narrowed or wide, rapt eyes, tail up high - still or wagging - and the dog up on its toes, not standing easy. That's the time to step into the situation with an "uh oh" or "no"(I tend to use "uh oh" during training - "no" after the dog has well learned what he should and shouldn't do) and the back the instigator off, walking into his/her space and stand over him until the dog gives way, softens his eyes and body, gives up and walks away, all the while pointing at and intently staring into his eyes as a pack leader in the wild would do.

Your demeanor and body language showing you are intent on stopping further escalation is powerful to your dog, so calm yourself, be very confident, determined and imposing as you approach the dog who is trying to start a fight and let him know you intend to stop this and stand him down until he gives up and leaves the area. Do not ever, ever, ever show anger or yell at dogs - use only confident, calm determination, stay in teaching mode and always monitor the two dogs any time they are out together and stop behavior with purpose before it escalates - you can do it once you learn what looks or actions precede an attack or fight. Sometimes the one who attacks isn't really the instigator so you need to watch both of them closely for all those early signs that they are sending out. Occasionally a dog will strike w/out warning but most of the time they send out very clear signals once you learn them. By stopping that dog first, he'll begin to learn you will always step in and stop him and begin to police himself, realizing he's going to have to give up the role he's trying to assume as leader to you and begin to accept your role as leader of your little family pack. But he must learn to fully trust you first - trust your style and your confident leadership. It will take time but it always happens when it's done right with calm confidence and always staying in teacher mode with your dogs.

As fast as possible, I would get two copies of Tamar Geller's "The Loved Dog" and both of you read it through. I've used those methods ever since I began working with dogs and find one gets results with bad behaviors faster using a loving, gentle, positive approach - showing your dog you are trying to teach him what you want and rewarding him when he gets it right, giving him negative feedback when he doesn't.

You can likely get the book used online for pretty cheap, no doubt. It's the perfect approach to effective human/dog interactions and successful training, reshaping unwanted or scary dog behavior and teaches you HOW to train and rehab your dog using only fun, positive reinforcement and negative feedback when he gets it wrong. You begin to look at life as your dog does - not as we think they do. It's a MUST READ for anyone with a dog. Dog training and reshaping is actually fun when it's done right.

If you have any further problems with one of you losing your temper with the dog, for his sake, Toby needs to be immediately re-homed. Imagine how he's feeling right now - he knows something is very wrong and he doesn't know how to fix it, though he's trying to with his attacks, trying to manage the other dog who he sees as weak. Dogs with strong leaders with good dog-handling skills rarely fight. Geller's book can teach you how to be that leader and give you good to excellent dog-handling skills, especially if you read more of her books. Only a strong, calm, confident and gentle, loving leader can help both of your dogs through this now.