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Old 10-29-2014, 12:08 AM   #1
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Default Tail Docking - Yes or No

I read an interesting thread on this forum which made passing reference to tail docking.


What I'd like to know is, apart from because some "standard" dictates it, is there any good reason for tail docking?


I am from the States and it is the norm to dock tails of certain breeds, including the YT, I know. However, having removed myself from where it is normative to where it is not (namely, England), I have a revised perspective.


I feel tail docking is unnecessary and, therefore, cruel. Yes, I understand that the argument is that before so many days of life the nerve endings aren't fully developed in the pup and, thus, the docking isn't "painful". I would disagree with this, however, just as I would disagree with the perception that babies do not feel pain just because they may not be able to express it consciously later in life..


However, the argument is that past these first few days the docking of the tail would be considered major surgery.


So, why put the puppies through it at all? As I said, I'm not interested in aesthetics or rules which state "standard". That argument, to me, is like saying..."female circumcision in Africa is the norm so it's okay.."


Well, to me, it's not okay to remove body parts to make an animal more pleasing to the eye.


So, I confess that I may be ignorant to any health benefits of docking the tail so ask that someone please educate me? Or, if the general consensus is that docking is done just because it always has been for conformity, then at least I'll know that what I suspect is correct which is that, sadly, no one is standing up to challenge this standard in the interest of the dogs. In time, though, I think that will change.


Thoughts?
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Old 10-29-2014, 01:36 AM   #2
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Tail docking is a stupid practice. Dogs use their tails to communicate with other dogs in many subtle ways. Docking literally gives a dog a speech impediment all because some Bozo decided it looks good. No to tail docking.
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Old 10-29-2014, 04:57 AM   #3
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I have a Biewer. A German breed so they their standard is that they do not dock the tails. I am glad. I love their plumes. . . There used to be reasons why these dogs have tail docking and ear cropping. But now they are just pets. I think the Americas should stop it also
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:04 AM   #4
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I firmly believe that tail docking should be outlawed here - it's unnecessary and it's ridiculous to me to remove a body part just to conform to a created standard that could easily be changed to fit what a dog is BORN with.
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:32 AM   #5
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Hi all,


Thanks for responding so quickly.


It puts my mind at ease to see that others see the sense in banning this practice.


This link was interesting:


Ear Cropping and Tail Docking: Necessary? Cruel?


It's good that they have highlighted to buyers that they have the option to request that their puppy's tail is NOT docked or, alternatively, seek an adult with tail intact.
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:59 AM   #6
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Ditto
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:05 AM   #7
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I do not like tail docking but until the standard is changed or it's outlawed it's still got to be done because reputable breeders have to breed to the standard otherwise there not reputable. In my opinion.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:17 AM   #8
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Here's another side of the story, though both sides feel strongly about their own causes or horrors dogs suffer at the hands of people.

As most canine neonates are born still developing, unseeing, unhearing and with under-developed neurological, musculoskeletal, gastrointestinal systems and are still in very early development stages at the time they are docked/declawed, their brain-function and bodily functions are so rudimentary at that point all they can't feel much pain, walk, eat/process food or poop on their own. All they can do is sleep, vocalize, crawl short distances to teats and nurse on their own. Mom has to feed them, move them any distances they must travel and stimulate them to even eliminate their own waste.

If you've ever seen the tail-docking procedure done where most pups settle to sleep within a seconds to 3 minutes of their tail docking/dew-claw removal, it doesn't seem cruel when you consider the thin, frail tail of a Yorkshire Terrier and the fact that they don't carry it protectively curled over their backs but out straight behind them. Besides, it you take a puppy up from its nest from its mother and place it down on an exam table at the vet's office or the breeder's and do anything to it that scares or shocks it such as look down its throat using an laryngoscope, or even just hold onto a single paw for too long, it will yelp and cry for a while and often takes just as long to settle to sleep again.

If the dog has only rudimentary nerve function so that it cannot process whole foods, cannot poop on its own and has under-developed brain-to-limb function as to be unable to even move its limbs enough to move about any distance, it simply cannot process nerve function enough to send strong pain messages to feel pain as its peripheral functions are still so crude. Heck, we don't even give our boy babies pain medication before circumcision for the same reason - they can't process sufficient pain messages from the brain yet as a newborn.

Not all Yorkies are kept in the cleanest and finest of conditions in this country - many are living in puppymills and under the meanest of conditions and long tails trailing long, thick hair often catch on things, holding the dog in place, or collect waste matter and mat. Yorkies tails are frail and can be easily injured in the most-headstrong of breeds that they are as they will go in/under/around/through anything to get to their prey - even if it's just a ball and their tail's well-being is the last thing on their mind.

I've seen a dog who had a car door closed on its tail after it had scarred-over and "healed" crooked and can only imagine what pain that dog had after that compound fracture. I don't know if it was EVER treated at the time and don't know how many tail injuries are even treated at home, let alone taken to vets for treatment. As a child I saw a dog with a fresh tail injury in my neighborhood and the image of that miserable dog biting at his bloody tail sticks with me to this day. I promise you he didn't settle to sleep within 3 minutes! I've seen long-tailed, long-haired dogs surrendered/found with masses of feces, leaves, grass, etc., hanging from their matted long tail hairs with large chunks right up against their rectums! I'll take 30 seconds to 3 minutes of whatever sensation of pain they might feel as a neonate any day to prevent those horrors.

What's worse to me are those vets that send adult dogs home after tooth extractions or spays/neuters and don't send pain medications with them! And there are those owners that won't even give them to their dogs after bone fractures or surgery who report their dogs are extremely restless or lying in a heap, shaking and whining in pain for fear of the side effects. I think that's cruel and neglect by vet and owner.

This issue is always hotly debated each time it comes up and each person so far is still able to decide which is the worst - a short time of suspect pain as a neonate vs. the troubles a long, hair, thin, hairy, unclean tail can cause during the life of the Yorkies of America.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly View Post

This issue is always hotly debated each time it comes up and each person so far is still able to decide which is the worst - a short time of suspect pain as a neonate vs. the troubles a long, hair, thin, hairy, unclean tail can cause during the life of the Yorkies of America.

Thanks for replying with your take on things!


However, contrary to not acknowledging the potential issues trauma to an intact tail may present, the above link actually addresses this with statistics with regards to the incidence of injury which is often used to argue the "benefit" of tail docking. The incidence ratio is very low so doesn't, to my mind, justify the procedure on a global scale. Apparently, vets agree with this stance and I found that refreshing as I had never really looked into the debate in any great depth before today. I just knew that I always felt it was wrong.

The justification that a tail trauma is horrifying, although true, is weak to me simply because we don't amputate our feet (or our dogs) in the event trauma MAY occur and broken limbs are no less traumatic.


You're right, though. This topic is always debated and it is my hope that an eventual ban will outlaw the procedure in the best interest of all dog breeds.

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Old 10-29-2014, 08:31 AM   #10
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I wish they had more research on the subject. Since docking was banned in Europe there are many reports on tails breaking, and the results aren't pretty. Also, docking is outlawed in other countries, EXCEPT if it's a working dog, they can have their tails docked. This tells me that docking can be a safety issue. I understand that most Yorkies aren't working dogs, but I also know there is a lot of variation among tail thickness and I wonder if finer boned Yorkies might be more susceptible to breakage. Joeys tail broke during the birthing process, and he's very fine boned. Ralphie has a much thicker diameter tail and probably never needed to be docked in order to be safe. The breaking of an adult tail is a very painful issue and is very difficult to fix. So I still have mixed feelings on the subject.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:36 AM   #11
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I wish they had more research on the subject. Since docking was banned in Europe there are many reports on tails breaking, and the results aren't pretty. Also, docking is outlawed in other countries, EXCEPT if it's a working dog, they can have their tails docked. This tells me that docking can be a safety issue. I understand that most Yorkies aren't working dogs, but I also know there is a lot of variation among tail thickness and I wonder if finer boned Yorkies might be more susceptible to breakage. Joeys tail broke during the birthing process, and he's very fine boned. Ralphie has a much thicker diameter tail and probably never needed to be docked in order to be safe. The breaking of an adult tail is a very painful issue and is very difficult to fix. So I still have mixed feelings on the subject.
Valid points - however, the overall structure of a Yorkie is fine in comparison to larger breeds, yet it is only their tail that is docked, so I still believe that the docking is an aesthetic issue for this breed over a concern in their welfare.


It is emotive, I know. It is difficult to challenge the norm and confirmation bias comes to play where we feel compelled to not challenge something that is normative because it challenges what we previously believed. That is evolution and there are benefits to making a judgment in this way, as well, but I really hope that society can move past their primal instincts to see reason with this issue.


What I do see here, though, is a passion for the well-being of our dogs and that is a beautiful thing. Tail or no!
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:42 AM   #12
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I do not like tail docking but until the standard is changed or it's outlawed it's still got to be done because reputable breeders have to breed to the standard otherwise there not reputable. In my opinion.
This mindset amuses me. We humans created this standard. It's not like God told us "x, y, and z breed MUST have tails cut off! Or else!!"

So if a breeder does everything right, and exactly the same as a responsible breeder who docks tails, but they decide to leave tails -- suddenly they're irresponsible? Why? Simply because they don't cut off a piece of their puppy's body part?

I actually know a few Yorkies and Silky's whose breeders in the US leave tails and their dogs have been performing very successfully in the ring. Is it the norm? No, not yet, but doesn't mean they can't try or still win in show rings.

Tails used to be docked for a reason -- working dogs. Well, and they were also more aesthetically pleasing to a lot of people. I'm the first to admit, I think a cropped and docked Doberman is gorgeous and very striking creature. I don't so much like the looks of a 'all natural' Doberman. But it's the reason I'll likely never own one. I couldn't do with cropping ears, I would feel so cruel.

I think banning tail docking may be too extreme - as I do think it's a relatively small issue in the dog world and it can get iffy when govt. starts getting involved in our dog ownership and what we can/cannot do with our animals. But it's not something I prefer. And it's likely the reason I will never own another Yorkie or Silky unless I can find a breeder I like who leaves tails. I was lucky enough to be ignorant when getting Jackson and had no idea tails were even supposed to be docked so ended up with a full-tailed boy. His tail has never ever been an issue, and yes he's bigger at 18lbs, but his tail is very thin under hair.
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Last edited by Britster; 10-29-2014 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:46 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly View Post

I've seen a dog who had a car door closed on its tail after it had scarred-over and "healed" crooked and can only imagine what pain that dog had after that compound fracture. I don't know if it was EVER treated at the time and don't know how many tail injuries are even treated at home, let alone taken to vets for treatment. As a child I saw a dog with a fresh tail injury in my neighborhood and the image of that miserable dog biting at his bloody tail sticks with me to this day. I promise you he didn't settle to sleep within 3 minutes! I've seen long-tailed, long-haired dogs surrendered/found with masses of feces, leaves, grass, etc., hanging from their matted long tail hairs with large chunks right up against their rectums! I'll take 30 seconds to 3 minutes of whatever sensation of pain they might feel as a neonate any day to prevent those horrors.
What I don't get about this mindset is... if tails were such a HUGE problem in general, why don't we cut ALL dogs tails off? It just doesn't make sense. Golden Retrievers have long fluffy tails that often get poop/debris/etc stuck in them, so let's just start cutting off their tails...

Legs and toes can be broken off too. But you don't see people cutting a dogs leg off because he keeps hurting it.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:13 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster View Post
What I don't get about this mindset is... if tails were such a HUGE problem in general, why don't we cut ALL dogs tails off? It just doesn't make sense. Golden Retrievers have long fluffy tails that often get poop/debris/etc stuck in them, so let's just start cutting off their tails...

Legs and toes can be broken off too. But you don't see people cutting a dogs leg off because he keeps hurting it.
Early breeders learned which breeds' tails were susceptible and decided to crop the tail. Apparently, it wasn't an issue with the Golden Retrievers and their tail wasn't vulnerable to being broken often enough to necessitate cropping. The tail is much more painful and difficult to mend than a finger or toe because dogs are constantly wagging their tails. Results on a broken tail are not that good and many times the tail has to be completely amputated, including butt muscle. I guess this would be more like someone who had a family history of breast cancer removing their breasts. That's probably more extreme, but the idea is to prevent something much worse.

By the way, I totally disagree with the idea that it was done to be aesthetically pleasing, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it often has more to do with what were use to or our own personal ideas. I've never cared for the way a docked tails looked, I've gotten use to it on Yorkies, and now I think it's cute, but on my own dogs I grow their hair out so that it looks like a long tail.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:32 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Britster View Post
This mindset amuses me. We humans created this standard. It's not like God told us "x, y, and z breed MUST have tails cut off! Or else!!"

So if a breeder does everything right, and exactly the same as a responsible breeder who docks tails, but they decide to leave tails -- suddenly they're irresponsible? Why? Simply because they don't cut off a piece of their puppy's body part?

I actually know a few Yorkies and Silky's whose breeders in the US leave tails and their dogs have been performing very successfully in the ring. Is it the norm? No, not yet, but doesn't mean they can't try or still win in show rings.

Tails used to be docked for a reason -- working dogs. Well, and they were also more aesthetically pleasing to a lot of people. I'm the first to admit, I think a cropped and docked Doberman is gorgeous and very striking creature. I don't so much like the looks of a 'all natural' Doberman. But it's the reason I'll likely never own one. I couldn't do with cropping ears, I would feel so cruel.

I think banning tail docking may be too extreme - as I do think it's a relatively small issue in the dog world and it can get iffy when govt. starts getting involved in our dog ownership and what we can/cannot do with our animals. But it's not something I prefer. And it's likely the reason I will never own another Yorkie or Silky unless I can find a breeder I like who leaves tails. I was lucky enough to be ignorant when getting Jackson and had no idea tails were even supposed to be docked so ended up with a full-tailed boy. His tail has never ever been an issue, and yes he's bigger at 18lbs, but his tail is very thin under hair.
I'm just going by the "rules" of reputable breeders. Reputable breeders are supposed to breed to the standard. That dosen't mean I nessisarily agree with it, there are a lot of standards that in my opinion hurt dogs. I was told a yorkie with a full tail will never win but maybe that person was wrong donno.
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