ANNOYED WITH INEPT BREEDERS-demand bile acid tests when purchasing a puppy

[coco40]

We just purchased a puppy and now find out at seven months that he has
high bile acids. The second fasting test came out under 100 but it's still six times the normal amount he should have. My first yorkie came with all of the bile acid tests. THAT is a good breeder. I asked the current breeder for the tests and HER EXCUSE was that the results are inconclusive. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE BREEDERS?
Have the test done at 9 and 12 weeks like Dr. Tobias of the Unversity of Tennessee suggests. That's what a responsible breeder would do. I should have
insisted that my puppy have these tests. It would have avoided a tremendous amount of heartache.
These breeders who think they are good breeders should be ashamed of themselves. They hoodwink customers and then run around the show ring thinking they are good breeders. The breeder has a health guarantee but we would have to give up the puppy. WHY DONT WE GIVE UP OUR CHILDREN, too.
Just give me back my money or even half of the ENORMOUS amount of money you charged us because you sold me a lemon. This unethical behavior has to stop. Those who are purchasing puppies should demand bile acid test. Had to vent as I'm outraged that I was hoodwinked.

[BobbiB]

Originally Posted by coco40

We just purchased a puppy and now find out at seven months that he has
high bile acids. The second fasting test came out under 100 but it's still six times the normal amount he should have. My first yorkie came with all of the bile acid tests. THAT is a good breeder. I asked the current breeder for the tests and HER EXCUSE was that the results are inconclusive. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE BREEDERS?
Have the test done at 9 and 12 weeks like Dr. Tobias of the Unversity of Tennessee suggests. That's what a responsible breeder would do. I should have
insisted that my puppy have these tests. It would have avoided a tremendous amount of heartache.
These breeders who think they are good breeders should be ashamed of themselves. They hoodwink customers and then run around the show ring thinking they are good breeders. The breeder has a health guarantee but we would have to give up the puppy. WHY DONT WE GIVE UP OUR CHILDREN, too.
Just give me back my money or even half of the ENORMOUS amount of money you charged us because you sold me a lemon. This unethical behavior has to stop. Those who are purchasing puppies should demand bile acid test. Had to vent as I'm outraged that I was hoodwinked.

While I can understand frustration with poor breeding habits, I don't quite understand why you would have compleed the transaction if the lack the BAT bothered you so much.

[gemy]

I am so sorry that your pup may have liver issues, how-ever you also signed a contract with a health guarantee/warranty that was not much of one, I say this because it is so common for breeders to sell on this *must return puppy* if x/y/z, and also to stipulate no refunds of cash instead a replacement puppy.
And I agree BATS are important and quite frankly not sure why you did not insist on at least one being done, even if you had to pay extra for it.

[coco40]

Where I come from quality yorkies are hard to get and you are at the mercy of the breeders. My last go round, I called around for six months to try and find a female. I ended up purchasing one from a very reputable breeder down south.

What I know know is that the bile acid test NEEDS to be done BEFORE purchasing a puppy. I got a dog that has liver disease. I knew it was important before but didn't realize that I should have insisted and offered to pay for it myself.

It is true. I shouldn't have purchased the dog or completed the transaction but I thought the breeder was ethical and honorable. When you see the puppies, you fall in love with them. I also really wanted a new yorkie. Shame on me.

[coco40]

The breeder told me that the tests at such a young age are inconclusive by the way.
My assumption(albeit wrong) that a good breeder would be well informed. I did some research and saw that there is some evidence to her statement but the leading experts in liver shunt say test the dog early. I now realize that she just didn't want to do it. So my advice to people who are purchasing a puppy is get the bile acid test even if you have to pay for it and don't be hoodwinked by a breeder.When I told the breeder I was going to get the bile acid test done during the first couple of days of having the dog, she said it would be a waste of money. I thought she was honorable. Now I know.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by coco40

The breeder told me that the tests at such a young age are inconclusive by the way.
My assumption(albeit wrong) that a good breeder would be well informed. I did some research and saw that there is some evidence to her statement but the leading experts in liver shunt say test the dog early. I now realize that she just didn't want to do it. So my advice to people who are purchasing a puppy is get the bile acid test even if you have to pay for it and don't be hoodwinked by a breeder.When I told the breeder I was going to get the bile acid test done during the first couple of days of having the dog, she said it would be a waste of money. I thought she was honorable. Now I know.

I am very sorry for you and your puppy. Maybe and this only a maybe, she needs to learn a lot more about this disease, and was not deliberately being un-truthfull.
And to diagnose Liver Shunt and or MVD, more testing definitely will need to be done. What is your vets' forward plan of action? We have some excellent threads on here about LS and MVD. There is also a Yahoo support group with lots of good info.

You raise some very valid points about purchasing a dog vs a vs testing. The other point I would like to make, is if you insist on test A/B/C then you will need to decide what and how your decision will be should the testing come back unfavorable

I had a genetic test done prior to deciding which show puppy to purchase, I paid for it, and had it done on the two females. It SHOULD not have come back on either puppy unfavourable but it did on one puppy..... The breeder who is very respectable was very surprised to see the results. Obviously I chose the clear puppy....

I knew that as much as I liked puppy A, if she had this result, it was a deal breaker for me, and the breeder knew that too.....

There are some good reads in the library about evaluating a breeder. But once again it all comes down to the individual purchaser to do not just their homework, but to make up their own list of what is important to them, and how they will make their breeder selection.

I always say to folks, don't even look at the puppy pictures, instead research the breeder, get their contract, assess the contract, look at their adult dogs, dialogue write with the breeder if there are things in their contract that you could not abide by, etc. Then you make the decision to either go with this breeder or walk away. I know it is very hard to do.

[ladyjane]

Sadly, this is a common story ... and more than people realize. I have had people message me here on YT to tell me about their sick puppies. Many of them will never post it publically because they feel that supporters of the breeder here on YT will throw a hissy fit. They choose to just leave it alone and take care of the puppy. Just makes me sick.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Contract or no contract, you can bet your bottom dollar I would now start looking into this breeder thoroughly and I would publish her name to save others. Hiding her name only allows her not to be responsible. We can all sit here and say that you should have checked her out more thoroughly and/or you should have not signed that contract; but the fact remains SHE SOLD YOU A SICK PUPPY. If she were worth her salt she would make it up to you and the living being she brought into this world. I would MAKE her do it ! I believe if you stay on her and if you let people know who she is, she will step up to the plate for the sake of this puppy that SHE DECIDED NEEDED TO BE BORN INTO THIS WORLD.

OK...rant over! I wish you and your puppy well. Please keep us posted!

[marcie]

I am so sorry that you and your little pup have to go through this. I pray
all works out.

[107barney]

Who is the breeder?

[coco40]

[QUOTE=ladyjane;4482638]Sadly, this is a common story ... and more than people realize. I have had people message me here on YT to tell me about their sick puppies. Many of them will never post it publically because they feel that supporters of the breeder here on YT will throw a hissy fit. They choose to just leave it alone and take care of the puppy. Just makes me sick.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Contract or no contract, you can bet your bottom dollar I would now start looking into this breeder thoroughly and I would publish her name to save others. Hiding her name only allows her not to be responsible. We can all sit here and say that you should have checked her out more thoroughly and/or you should have not signed that contract; but the fact remains SHE SOLD YOU A SICK PUPPY. If she were worth her salt she would make it up to you and the living being she brought into this world. I would MAKE her do it ! I believe if you stay on her and if you let people know who she is, she will step up to the plate for the sake of this puppy that SHE DECIDED NEEDED TO BE BORN INTO THIS WORLD.


OK...rant over! I wish you and your puppy well. Please keep us posted!

Many thanks, Ladyjane! I always enjoy your posts…I agree with you entirely. I do want to see how the breeder decides to handle this ultimately; I am doing more additional tests next week on our puppy. In our defense of researching breeders, I wrote to other people who had puppies from her, and they said her dogs were great. The breeder came highly recommended from other reputable breeders as well. I truly did a lot of homework. What I did wrong was believed that a bile acid test at a young age is inconclusive. I just hope others who are trying to purchase a yorkie don't make the same mistake.

[ladyjane]

I am not so sure that BATs are conclusive in a puppy. The issue here is that she will do something IF you turn the puppy over. I personally don't like that language at all and would not sign a contract like that; but it is done all the time. Any breeder can have an issue with a puppy .. does not necessarily mean the breeder is a bad one. I hope this one will simply help you while allowing you to keep the puppy.

And, as to your last line, amen...hopefully people will read and learn. Not all will, but if your experience helps one person/puppy it is well worth it!

[107barney]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I am not so sure that BATs are conclusive in a puppy. The issue here is that she will do something IF you turn the puppy over. I personally don't like that language at all and would not sign a contract like that; but it is done all the time. Any breeder can have an issue with a puppy .. does not necessarily mean the breeder is a bad one. I hope this one will simply help you while allowing you to keep the puppy.

And, as to your last line, amen...hopefully people will read and learn. Not all will, but if your experience helps one person/puppy it is well worth it!

Agreed. BATs are inconclusive in puppies that young.

[gemy]

[quote=coco40;4482650]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Sadly, this is a common story ... and more than people realize. I have had people message me here on YT to tell me about their sick puppies. Many of them will never post it publically because they feel that supporters of the breeder here on YT will throw a hissy fit. They choose to just leave it alone and take care of the puppy. Just makes me sick.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Contract or no contract, you can bet your bottom dollar I would now start looking into this breeder thoroughly and I would publish her name to save others. Hiding her name only allows her not to be responsible. We can all sit here and say that you should have checked her out more thoroughly and/or you should have not signed that contract; but the fact remains SHE SOLD YOU A SICK PUPPY. If she were worth her salt she would make it up to you and the living being she brought into this world. I would MAKE her do it ! I believe if you stay on her and if you let people know who she is, she will step up to the plate for the sake of this puppy that SHE DECIDED NEEDED TO BE BORN INTO THIS WORLD.


OK...rant over! I wish you and your puppy well. Please keep us posted!

Many thanks, Ladyjane! I always enjoy your posts…I agree with you entirely. I do want to see how the breeder decides to handle this ultimately; I am doing more additional tests next week on our puppy. In our defense of researching breeders, I wrote to other people who had puppies from her, and they said her dogs were great. The breeder came highly recommended from other reputable breeders as well. I truly did a lot of homework. What I did wrong was believed that a bile acid test at a young age is inconclusive. I just hope others who are trying to purchase a yorkie don't make the same mistake.

Strictly speaking it is *inconclusive*, one high test especially with puppies does not equal Liver Disease. What it is *conclusive* of at that age is that potentially there could be an issue here. Generally speaking with values below 100, you would repeat in 4 wks the BATS, and depending on the values, just like what is happening with your pup, further testing is either warranted or not.

I would expect a good breeder to keep that puppy until their medical condition is determined, and then if the breeder decides to place their puppy full disclosure to the potential buyer is the ethical way to go.

Once you have a confirmed diagnosis, I would open up the discussion with the breeder about your boys health. LS and or MVD are highly thought to be probably a polygenetic condition, for certain an issue this breeder needs to be made aware of. And an issue there is NO GENETIC test for. But having said that one definitely should not repeat that breeding pair and the breeder is going to have her research cut out for her to determine if either that stud and or dam should be used again; given she owns both pair.

All I can speak to is myself and my practices, but as a breeder I would be with you each step of the way. And it is normal practice for the breeder to ask to get copies of the test results. And despite what a contract says, there is always room for negotiation, and to treat your puppy buyer, in a decent and compassionate way.

Once you have your answers to your boys health, determine what it is you want from this breeder, and make your case.

Sorry this is so long, but for example; did she actually do BATS on the breeding pair? If yes and they were Normal, that is one good mark for her. Next would be in the lineage of your breeding pair, what was the incident rate or experience with *all* health problems in the line, and specifically liver issues? Beyond this and if she did her best to research and test, she did the most she could do.

The measure of a breeder is not how they respond when things go well, but when there is a Snafu.

[gemy]

Beyond this and if she did her best to research and test, she did the most she could do.


By this I meant determing the breeding pair. Not what she can do after she finds out there is a problem with a puppy from that litter.

[m-ping]

My wife wanted a companion dog 5 years ago , a Yorkie. We found a local breeder and brought Maggie home. Last week she got sick. Her liver was only 30% the size of a normal one. We depended on our vet for her regular checkups and blood work and so on, and thought we would all grow old together. After several thousand dollars Maggie went to yorkie heaven. We are now looking for our new puppy. I had never visited yorkie forum before she got sick and kick myself in the behind for not doing it sooner. I will not get another yorkie untill I have researched everything and done what you all have talked about. Thank you all for the information you put on the forum.

Maggie May6-30-2009 8-27-2014