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Old 07-23-2014, 03:08 PM   #1
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Default Raising two puppies at once: aggressive at meal times

This is my first post here, and I would really appreciate any kind of feedback or ideas that you might have!

My husband and I are the new parents of Moo and Puck—14-week brother and sister. They play well together most of the time, and they're generally good company for each other. What we're having a hard time with is meal times. We each feed them the same amount of Nutro in two separate bowls, but Moo (the girl) turns into a possessed demon when we put bowls down. As soon as Puck starts eating, or even attempts to eat, she goes insane and starts violently attacking him. We have to break them up by shaking a glass jar filled with coins, and sometimes that doesn't even do the trick. Then neither one of them eats; she's too stressed out, and he's too scared that she'll attack him.

So for the last couple of days we've been feeding them at the same time, but in different areas where they can't see each other. This has helped for the most part, but obviously, I want to be able to feed them at the same time and not have to have this be a big ordeal. I'm afraid to feed them together because of the fighting and the eventual lack of eating due to the fighting, but I also want them to learn to not do this, and to be able to eat meals together.

I've read that this could be a dominance thing, but with the way they fight, I honestly cannot leave them to "finish" the fight. Someone will get seriously hurt.

Any advice or suggestions?
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:47 PM   #2
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From what I've read, YOU should be the pack leader. Once you establish that, she shouldn't be fighting for dominance over him.
I'm sure there are articles you can read on how to establish that. But I've read some things like YOU need to eat before they do, in front of them. The pack leader always eats first. Then, give them a bowl of food and take it away when they go for it. They should be able to wait until you give a command like "Okay, eat." And be able to sit the food down without them eating it right away until given the command. I don't know the exact words to use or details, so you'll have to do some research.
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:35 PM   #3
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They are still quite young and competitive but from what I've heard and read, terriers often can't eat together unless you are a true dog pack leader who has a very strong leadership skillset and the dogs know it is not their place to cause problems at mealtime and in dogs this young, it's quite hard to police them for whichever one provokes the attack as few are willing to stick to it for long.

I've had lots of multiple dogs in my home and never had food fights or dog fights other than strange dogs who were just introduced as fosters/rescues but my own dogs have never fought as you describe but I'll tell you what I might try if these were my young dogs. I always give all dogs their own personal space for eating - 6 or more feet away from one another for starters.

Teaching them to sit and wait a bit is a good idea once they are 4 or 5 months old as you have two, just so that they know who is in control of the food resources and whose place it is to set the rules of mealtime. As they are so young, I'd probably leash her for feedings for the time being and feed them on opposite sides of the room with me sitting in between to prevent her from getting to his food bowl and in time, she should become aware that it is not her place to interfere with his mealtime.

The moment she looks up or even acts like she will lock onto him with her eyes or shows unhealthy interest in what he is doing, stop it there. Say "No" and stand up, take hold of her leash so that she has to remain there by her bowl and stand there relaxed and quietly until she backs off and resumes her eating, then relax the leash, immediately sit back down and relax. Don't stand there all tense and anticipating trouble as long as she's not interested in him - stay relaxed as she will pick up on your tension and body attitude which should only intrude when she tries to show unusual interest in his eating. Praise any prolonged eating she does by giving her a high-value treat right then in the middle of the meal if she's eaten a bit w/out any interest in him as a reward for doing what you want.

Also, watch him in case he's baiting her in some way and might be instigating the attacks during mealtime by giving her meaningful or staring looks which could challenge her in some way, prompting the attack. Even the purposeful flick of an ear can cause problems if it sends the wrong message. You might have to put up a large piece of posterboard or something for him to eat behind or move his bowl where she can't see him for the next month or so in order to prevent her watching him or vice versa.

If she gets on board and begins to learn her place, daily move his bowl closer to hers with you in between until they can eat closer together though I would give them each a good 6 foot or more personal space to enjoy their own meal in some privacy and peace.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:06 PM   #4
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I have three and keep them slightly separated while they are eating. Pebbles is always the first to get her bowl of food. I make her sit, give paw and wait until I tell her to eat. Then I put Doodlebug's bowl down next about 5' from Pebbles and the last is Bogey and I always place his bowl no the other side of my kitchen table away from the others. I do this because Pebbles is the leader when it comes time to eat. She was first in the house and she is still first to eat. Personally, I would continue to feed them at a distance from each other and to allow the girl to go earn your boy. If they are not near each other there is more time to act if she does become aggressive toward him. You need to get this under control IMMEDIATELY or it will turn into food aggression and then you have an even bigger issue.

I'm an a huge propionate of the leash technique like Jeanie mentioned above. The only thing that I would suggest is instead of holding the leash stepping on it instead. But I would absolutely keep them separated on opposite sides of the room and immediately pick up their food bowls after they are finished.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:18 PM   #5
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I used to guard my females bowl while she ate. She was very submissive even though I had her first. So I would stand behubg her facing out while she ate. Eventually he backed off and left her alone. I fed her first then him.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:42 AM   #6
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Thank you all so much for your feedback—I really appreciate it.

When I got home yesterday evening, I let them both out to "wiz wiz", then put them back in their fenced off area. I grabbed a couple of carrots and a glass of water and made sure that they both saw me eating/drinking. I then prepped both their food bowls. This time, instead of my husband taking Moo off to a different room, I kept Puck in the fenced area and put his food down. I put Moo outside of the fenced off area. Moo started eating almost immediately, but Puck was crying because it seemed like he wanted me to be with him instead of her. Once Moo started chowing down, I switched over to Puck to get him to start eating (usually just stirring the food around with my finger). When he got started, I switched back over to Moo. Moo finished way before him, and I wanted to take her outside right away. Of course, once I took her outside, Puck wanted to come too. And she wanted to be with him. But I could tell that if I put them together where Puck’s food was, she was going to start fighting with him. So I just kept them separated until he’d finished, and then we all went outside to wiz wiz and play.

To me, this was major progress. Even being in the same room was a big step. I’m wondering if it helped for them to see me eat first. There are still issues, but it looks like they are gradually getting a bit better. Just got to keep at it, I guess.
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Old 07-24-2014, 11:49 AM   #7
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We always use the same procedure for mealtimes- who goes first and where the bowls are placed, if my DH doesn't follow thru the little one still has growling issues , she is 3 and still has hoarding food issues, she eats alone in her expen...
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Old 07-24-2014, 05:54 PM   #8
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Honestly, you can eat first for years but if that's all you really do, and you don't use your leadership/training skills to train the dogs how you require them to behave at mealtime, it won't really change their mealtime behavior. Dogs who have problems eating together usually only behave as they are trained how to do and shown over and over the way it must go with consistent stepping in to prevent them from behaving otherwise until they learn the rules. And those who can't achieve the level of training of two problematic dogs that allows them to eat in the same room at the same w/out problems usually separate them to prevent trouble.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:48 PM   #9
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You eating first should not matter IMO. Keeping them separated and letting them both know it's meal time and setting that routine is the most important thing right now. I like the idea they are getting potty and play time immediately afterward. Just keep the routine consistent and things will get better. I still think you need to put the harness and leash on her while they are eating and just step on it if she move and tell her to finish eating. That way without ever touching her you will still be in control while she doesn't realize that you are.

There is a book that I have recommend in the past called Let the Dog Decide. He explains in his training technique if you allow the dog to think they are deciding for themselves while controlling their behavior it works very well. Here's a link and I would suggest you purchase it. The techniques in the book really helped when I was having issues with Pebbles. http://www.amazon.com/Let-Decide-Revolutionary-15-...http://www.amazon.com/Let-Decide-Revolutionary-15-...
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:01 PM   #10
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Dogs could care less about you eating first. They're not being dominant. They obviously find their food to be a highly prized possession and want to protect it/fight for it. It's a somewhat common dog behavior, moreso in terriers. I agree with all of Jeanie's advice - she always gives awesome advice ^^

I would think it would be fairly simple to just feed them in separate rooms. I really don't see a reason why they should HAVE to eat right next to each other if they're obviously miserable and hurting each other because of it.

And I am always an advocate for training (dog training is a huge hobby of mine and having well behaved dogs is a plus, always) but something like this? I just don't see a reason to risk. Even if you work with them and train them to try and tolerate each other while eating, I just don't see the reason for the added work and stress when the two dogs can just be fed in separate rooms.

We have 3 dogs over at my dads house, and while they are not gated or blocked off from each other, they all eat in separate corners of the kitchen just as a safety precaution. The 2 terriers can get fiesty around food if one gets too close.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster View Post
Dogs could care less about you eating first. They're not being dominant.
That's a VERY debatable topic. I could hand you 10 different articles/books that say otherwise. And you could probably give me some back.
But the OP is struggling and it's worth looking into/trying.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookingforone View Post
That's a VERY debatable topic. I could hand you 10 different articles/books that say otherwise. And you could probably give me some back.
But the OP is struggling and it's worth looking into/trying.
I've done my research, believe me. I used to be very pro-Cesar Millan and into 'dominance' and thankfully, I discovered that it was all pretty much hogwash. It just took me a little while. Not to mention, the beliefs that dominance trainers hold. Comparing anything that WE do with our dogs to how dogs react to other dogs is like comparing apples and oranges. We are humans. Dogs know this. We as humans can act like we're dogs, but we're not. We don't fool them. And just as humans are not dogs, dogs are NOT wolves. Dogs are highly domesticated, very intelligent, and purposely bred to work side-by-side with humans.


The actual pack leader/dominance theory phenomenon was disproved by the VERY people who created it. They now deeply regret their 'research'. (In a 2002 book, when countless dogs had been subjected to the stress of the alpha roll, the Monks of New Skete said that they regretted giving the advice to a bunch of dog owners with no idea how to use it.)

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Old 07-25-2014, 08:22 PM   #13
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The whole 'eating before the dog' thing kind of makes me laugh anyway. If you really believe that eating before a dog does makes them think you're 'dominant'... I think you should remember they are DOGS. Their brains don't work that way and that's not a diss on dogs. They're simple minded creatures. They don't see you eating dinner, and think in their head, "Oh, they're eating first, so I guess I better listen to that person" or while they're eating their dinner, their mind is not thinking about the fact that you ate first. Honestly their mind is probably working more along the lines of "Food. There's food. I love food".
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookingforone View Post
That's a VERY debatable topic. I could hand you 10 different articles/books that say otherwise. And you could probably give me some back.
But the OP is struggling and it's worth looking into/trying.
Just about everything about dog behavior and how to deal with them is debatable but a human simply eating before a dog with a tendency to resource-hogging won't solely cause him to stop attacking another dog for its food during mealtime or actually stop him from trying to get to that dog's food - only the dog trainer with a determined, strong leadership ability and willing to persistently correct and train the offending dog who causes the tension at mealtime how to behave properly during meals will end unwanted behavior and show the misbehaving dog how you expect him to conduct himself when eating. And once he gets the idea and realizes you won't accept anything else from him, while rewarding good eating manners, he'll eventually start to eat his dinner peacefully. Just keep in mind that at times during the training phase and maybe even at times months and years down the road, that doggie very likely will still occasionally re-offend if the trainer is distracted. Just stepping up and taking control of him at that point w/out rancor will quickly remind him how he's expected to act, he'll respect that calm but firm leadership and he'll further see your pride in him once he complies, resumes eating and hears your "good boy".
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:45 AM   #15
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When I have a foster in the house I always feed it in their crate, the reason is my Sophie Kate is very much Alpha and will take on anyone dog for food or a snack.

Plus it helps because she is on a prescription food and needs to not eat any other types.

I agree with the dogs not caring if we eat first, they compete with each other and not so much me.
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