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Old 08-26-2013, 11:20 AM   #1
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You all are in the comfort of your own space and can respond honestly without fear of others judgement of you in public. So please answer these questions honestly, because I like MANY other people, like myself, REALLY DO want to know. There are 10 questions, I tried to narrow it down as best as I can. Pick and choose if you must, and answer those which are most important to you. I am doing this to PROMOTE a discussion on a topic that is very sensitive in hopes that we each get a better understanding of one another's perspective. It is also one in which I truthfully don't understand. Be prepared that my wording of the questions may be considered harsh but it really is what I and people I have spoken to reeeeeeally want to ask in exactly this way, So here goes:

When replying, for ease & understanding, please reference the # of the question you are responding to, Thank you.

Introduction: My husband and I are proud parents to a completely spoiled 16 month old fur baby who's treated as a little bitty HUMAN, in ALL WAYS. She is NOT spayed & will NOT ever be unless PROVEN TO BE ABSOLUTELY MEDICALLY NECESSARY. Yes, we heard about Cancer "allegedly" but don't ALL dogs end up getting it anyway? We've discussed this and she WILL be breed, with another puppy, we obtain, at the appropriate time with the help and under the care of her excellent Veterinarian. No matter how difficult it is, we will keep ALL of her litter babies, as we do not have the heart to seperate them from her. THAT WILL NOT CHANGE.


1. What type of FORMAL MEDICAL EDUCATION do breeders/rescuers have? If none, why are they allowed to care for dogs? Do they become EDUCATED through trial & Error?

3. What type of EXPERIENCE is REQUIRED to be a breeder/rescuer? If none, how is it determined that a person is QUALIFIED to care for Dogs? Do they become EXPERIENCED through trial & Error?

4. If questions 2 and 3 cannot be answered in the affirmative, what makes them QUALIFIED to determine what a proper matching would be and what type of household would be appropriate.

5. Why do people & rescuers think it is acceptable or appropriate to approach, question, confront, or criticize those of us who DO NOT WISH TO SPAY/NEUTER, WANT to BREED, ANNNNNNND Tell us how to care for our dogs when we're just strolling along in public. Yes, We do desire helpful advise, WHEN ASKED, but isn't that crossing the line? If we asked you questions 1 and 2 would you be offended?

6. Why can't I choose to BUY a puppy I see in a store window? Don't these puppies deserve to be saved too? Not all of them cost alot of $. In fact, there are plenty that are healthy and MUCH cheaper than a rescuers adoption fee.

7. Who determines when a puppy should be put down, is it a licensed Veterinarian, and DO rescuers ever question their superiors and INTERVENE on that dog's behalf if they disagree? Why is the term "put it down because it is suffering" used sooooooo loosely. Would we put a HUMAN down because they suffer? How many times do they bounce back? Why can't they die on their own?

8. What makes a "Rescuer" THINK that a SHELTER is EVER a BETTER place for a dog than a home that may have a few slight imperfections but is available. Some of their requirements seem ridiculous to potential adopters. (NOT talking about abuse: ie: fence, stairs, balconies, gate) Why can't a few in-person, @ THEIR facility, welfare checks suffice to see how the new family is adjusting?

9. Are ALL Rescues overseen by a Licensed Veterinarian? Are there STANDARDIZED rules that are followed by ALL rescue organizations that have been APPROVED by ANIMAL VETERINARIANS, as they are CLEARLY THE ONLY TRUE EXPERTS regarding analyzing, matching, and selecting who should and should not have a dog and for what VALID reasons.

10. Why is it an ABSOLUTE requirement for rescuers to visit a potential adopters home? Doesn't it prevent MANY adoptions. Wouldn't a dog want to be in ANY loving home rather than in a cage @ a FACILITY or @ a "FOSTER" home later to be shuffled to yet another place.

Many more questions but let's stop here.

Feel free to chime in, maybe you can sway some of us, maybe you cannot, but I think if we all get a better understanding of this topic, IT WOULD BE GREAT!

P.s. - pls excuse any (sp?) & typos,sure they are somewhere here, didn't proofread.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:39 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peachesmommy View Post
You all are in the comfort of your own space and can respond honestly without fear of others judgement of you in public. So please answer these questions honestly, because I like MANY other people, like myself, REALLY DO want to know. There are 10 questions, I tried to narrow it down as best as I can. Pick and choose if you must, and answer those which are most important to you. I am doing this to PROMOTE a discussion on a topic that is very sensitive in hopes that we each get a better understanding of one another's perspective. It is also one in which I truthfully don't understand. Be prepared that my wording of the questions may be considered harsh but it really is what I and people I have spoken to reeeeeeally want to ask in exactly this way, So here goes:

When replying, for ease & understanding, please reference the # of the question you are responding to, Thank you.

Introduction: My husband and I are proud parents to a completely spoiled 16 month old fur baby who's treated as a little bitty HUMAN, in ALL WAYS. She is NOT spayed & will NOT ever be unless PROVEN TO BE ABSOLUTELY MEDICALLY NECESSARY. Yes, we heard about Cancer "allegedly" but don't ALL dogs end up getting it anyway? We've discussed this and she WILL be breed, with another puppy, we obtain, at the appropriate time with the help and under the care of her excellent Veterinarian. No matter how difficult it is, we will keep ALL of her litter babies, as we do not have the heart to seperate them from her. THAT WILL NOT CHANGE.


1. What type of FORMAL MEDICAL EDUCATION do breeders/rescuers have? If none, why are they allowed to care for dogs? Do they become EDUCATED through trial & Error?

3. What type of EXPERIENCE is REQUIRED to be a breeder/rescuer? If none, how is it determined that a person is QUALIFIED to care for Dogs? Do they become EXPERIENCED through trial & Error?

4. If questions 2 and 3 cannot be answered in the affirmative, what makes them QUALIFIED to determine what a proper matching would be and what type of household would be appropriate.

5. Why do people & rescuers think it is acceptable or appropriate to approach, question, confront, or criticize those of us who DO NOT WISH TO SPAY/NEUTER, WANT to BREED, ANNNNNNND Tell us how to care for our dogs when we're just strolling along in public. Yes, We do desire helpful advise, WHEN ASKED, but isn't that crossing the line? If we asked you questions 1 and 2 would you be offended?

6. Why can't I choose to BUY a puppy I see in a store window? Don't these puppies deserve to be saved too? Not all of them cost alot of $. In fact, there are plenty that are healthy and MUCH cheaper than a rescuers adoption fee.

7. Who determines when a puppy should be put down, is it a licensed Veterinarian, and DO rescuers ever question their superiors and INTERVENE on that dog's behalf if they disagree? Why is the term "put it down because it is suffering" used sooooooo loosely. Would we put a HUMAN down because they suffer? How many times do they bounce back? Why can't they die on their own?

8. What makes a "Rescuer" THINK that a SHELTER is EVER a BETTER place for a dog than a home that may have a few slight imperfections but is available. Some of their requirements seem ridiculous to potential adopters. (NOT talking about abuse: ie: fence, stairs, balconies, gate) Why can't a few in-person, @ THEIR facility, welfare checks suffice to see how the new family is adjusting?

9. Are ALL Rescues overseen by a Licensed Veterinarian? Are there STANDARDIZED rules that are followed by ALL rescue organizations that have been APPROVED by ANIMAL VETERINARIANS, as they are CLEARLY THE ONLY TRUE EXPERTS regarding analyzing, matching, and selecting who should and should not have a dog and for what VALID reasons.

10. Why is it an ABSOLUTE requirement for rescuers to visit a potential adopters home? Doesn't it prevent MANY adoptions. Wouldn't a dog want to be in ANY loving home rather than in a cage @ a FACILITY or @ a "FOSTER" home later to be shuffled to yet another place.

Many more questions but let's stop here.

Feel free to chime in, maybe you can sway some of us, maybe you cannot, but I think if we all get a better understanding of this topic, IT WOULD BE GREAT!

P.s. - pls excuse any (sp?) & typos,sure they are somewhere here, didn't proofread.
First off not only can they get cancer from not being spayed they can also get an illness that can kill them in 24 hours. They also need to be watched VERY closely when in heat and can not go outside alone or be around any intact males. Reputable breeders do not just give out breeding rights to anyone one because breeders word hard for them so I am scared that sense you didn't have a reputable breeder that your female may have genetic illness and problems in her lines which could cause you to have puppies born suffering there whole lives, not live long or born with conditions that could cost you thousands of dollars per puppy. It is also dangerous to breed and puts you females life at risk and she could die if something goes wrong during whelping and you didn't know the signs to look for. Any yorkie under 5 pounds should NEVER be bred ever. If you do love you dog like a human child you should not take the chance of risking her life. I also encourage people who are breeding even if they want to keep all the pups to please go to a few shelters especially kill shelters and look at all the unwanted dogs who are brought into this world and how many are going to be killed. Also if you female is a mix she really should not be breed again no reputable breeder would ever breed mixes.

#1. It is not required for a breeder to have any kind of education in breeding that is why we have so many sick puppies, dogs with genetic illness, and shelters full of dogs and puppies. Good breeds will further there knowledge though and study and learn for at least a year and have a mentor who breeds that they learn from and watch many litters being whelped before they start to breed. A breeder and a rescuer are two different things a rescuer takes came of dogs who have been abandoned, abused and unwanted.

#3 There is nothing required but there sure are things that reputable breeders do vs. back yard breeders.

#4 They know the problems of what makes dogs end up in the rescue and they know what is dangerous for that type of dog.

#5 Because there are many many bad people out there who breed for only profit and do not care about there dogs or even doing it right. There are also millions upon millions of dogs being killed and put down simply because there are to many and they don't have homes. The only reason one should is to better the breed. Breeding is something VERY serious no only because it risks the life of the animal being breed but because you are bring living beings into this word the feel and have needs.

#6 Puppies sold in pet stores come from puppy mills if you buy that puppy you are supporting the puppy mill and the terrible conditions of which the breeding dogs are kept in. If no one buys the puppies the price continues to get dropped until the pet store makes no money off of that puppy and stops buying so many and stops selling them or the pet store has to close. You may think the puppies are healthy but most are not and most wont have the genetic issues show up until 2 years of age. Also a lot of these puppies are bought on a whim and I bet half of them end up in shelters when people either figure out how much more work they are, they have some kind of behavior issues, got to big, or just don't want them.

#7 Some shelters chose to put a dog down after it has been there for a certain a mount of time, some chose to put a dog down when they can not afford the surgery or health care it might need, some simply put them down when the Vet says the dog is suffering and nothing can be done. I think that humans should be allowed to be "put down" when there is no chance of bouncing back and they are dying in terrible pain. If a dog is suffering and nothing can be done it is cruel to keep them alive.

#8 Most rescue dogs have been through A LOT and they do not want to put them through anymore. They want a fence so the dog is not just let outside alone and free to get hit by a car, stolen, killed for the heck of it or run off and get lost. Many rescuers look at the new family's on a case by case thing and somethings maybe over looked for some dogs and some things maybe even more important then other homes. Keeping the dog safe and cared about is what the rescue is worried about.

#9 Normally each rescue has a vet they use but the vet is not in charge of places the dogs because his job is the health care of the pet not the new home and placing the pet.

#10 A rescue absolutely will not put a dog in harms way or in a bad home. People who rescue dogs love them and want what is best for them and most of them stay in the same foster home until a new home is found. In most foster homes they are treated just like the other pets and are very happy.


I'm not sure if its rescues or breeding you are trying to get more info about. It does seem like you are angry at rescues and I am not sure why.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:13 PM   #3
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I am little concerned about the mix of topics in your post: rescuing and breeding. Like all dog rescues, I oppose the breeding of rescued dogs.

1. Ideally, a breeder is educated by an experienced mentor and a vet. It's like an apprentice system.

8. Rescuers know the statistics of pets who are placed and either returned or dumped. That is why they are hardcore when it comes to screening families. Also goes back to the fact that the dogs have already been through enough. There is a difference between rescue and shelters, but I'll defer to the experts to explain.

7. Putting a dog to sleep is usually done with guidance from the vet. My family has put 2 pets to sleep rather than let them suffer a slow, painful death when their kidneys failed. I don't think the term suffering is used loosely. Both dogs' bodies were starting to harden and they lost motor function. I think it would have been cruel to let them lie like that for a couple of weeks in pain.

5. I believe you will encounter a lot of passion from people who have seen a literal pile of dogs gassed/put down at a shelter, or left to die in horrible condition on roadsides. These dogs could be advertised as free with no application necessary, and people still wouldn't want them. We have an epidemic of homeless dogs in this country, and it isn't because rescuers are picky about placing dogs. You can drive certain highways in Texas and see them lined with dumped dogs. I can understand why people are passionate about stopping indiscriminate breeding.

Speaking of indiscriminate breeding, all you have to do is peruse the Sick and Injured forum here to learn about the genetic faults that it leads too. There is no guarantee that the perfect breeding pair with perfect lines will produce 100% healthy dogs, but the odds are much better.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:18 PM   #4
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I'm just going to tackle a few of your questions and leave the rest to somebody better qualified to answer them.

#7- The decision to allow a dog to go to the Rainbow Bridge is made in conjunction with both the vet and the rescue, just like it would be between an individual owner and a vet. I've never known a rescue to make that decision lightly. A lot is taken in to consideration, including the quality of life remaining and any pain or suffering a pup is likely to go through. Sometimes that means allowing a natural passing or euthanasia. Personally, after 25 years as a nurse, I think we treat dogs a h@ll of a lot better than we do people in this respect.

8- Rescues have the ultimate responsibility of making sure that any dog they place is going to be in a permanent home that isn't likely to rehome them down the line. For that reason, it absolutely is better to hold a dog back than risk putting it in a home where it's likely to be injured, neglected or discarded again.

10- Those who rescue view these pups as every bit as valuable and vulnerable as a human child. Would you think it's ok to place a child in a home without first investigating it? Is paying a fee good enough to bring a skin kid home? Wouldn't you expect that an agency would require references before placing a child? I would run away from any rescue that approves you without doing those things.

But lastly, breeders and rescues should never be confused. If you have a breeder group attempting to pass themselves off as a rescue, avoid it.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:23 PM   #5
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BTW, as the owner of 4 rescued dogs, I can't speak highly enough about the groups and the foster homes that cared for them first. I am forever in their debt for not only keeping these dogs from ending up in a kill shelter, but taking excellent care of them before I could find them.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:31 PM   #6
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1) Formal education as far as I know is not required I've met some breeders who.are licensed nurses to some who haven't completed college. Anyone can have an animal whether they're responsible or not...unfortunately.


3) No experience is needed to be a breeder...anyone can put two dogs together and breed them. Not saying it's right but they can. And yes I do believe everyone learns through trial and error whether it be in regards to breeding or something else.

4) Since 1 & 2 are not in the affirmative. I can say a breeder who researchers their breed and does it for the love of the breed and betterment and not to make money is great in my book. Your household doesn't have to be the Ritz but it needs to be a welcoming, safe environment.

5) I understand your.frustration with this. Some people who love animals can be somewhat "pushy" with their opinions. They think their way is the best way and you should go along with it. There is no reason for someone to push their opinions on you and if you feel they are feel free to tell them to "shove it" lol

6) You can get your puppy anywhere you choose I won't judge you. I think most people feel like you're receiving a puppy from a puppy mill and that you're feeding into the "system". Every dog deserves a good home whether from a respectable breeder or a breeder selling on the side of the road

7) I've never had to put an animal down thankfully but I think once you've exhausted all resources that is when an owner decides to put an animal down. Or if their quality of life is terrible and are in daily pain with no positive outcome for the future.

8) I don't agree with everything rescues(some) do. Their criteria(no kids, stairs,etc) unless the dog in question has issues with any of them. Being turned down by several rescues for having a child was one of the reasons I bought from a breeder. I am very wary about who I let into my home so unless I was told I would absolutely get the dog in question, I would bypass having a rescue come in. But they probably just want to see living arrangements and advise how to puppy proof your home if you were chosen

9) I am not sure who oversees every rescue and would not say all are experts. They all just have their preferred homes, foster types, and living arrangements.

10) Yes I do agree a dog would rather be in a loving home than a cage but I guess rescuers look at the "bigger picture" of what they find appropriate. They may not think a toy breed is good for a home with stairs, children, balcony, etc just like they would want a large breed to have a yard.
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:00 PM   #7
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Hi, I put my answers in Red and Bold, not to be rude but you asked a lot of questions and I wanted to make sure you could see my answers. Please note my answers only represent the rescue where I volunteer (but how on Earth could I speak for them all, no one can).

I think you will find here that most people (including me) do not have an issue with someone buying from a breeder as long as the breeder is ethical.

I usually try to avoid this debate since in my opinion it is a very personal choice. Not everyone wants to rescue, not everyone wants to adopt but as long as you make the right choice for you and family and use ethical breeders and rescues you would be getting a great new family member.


1. What type of FORMAL MEDICAL EDUCATION do breeders/rescuers have? If none, why are they allowed to care for dogs? Do they become EDUCATED through trial & Error? The rescue where I volunteer employess 2 full time Vet Techs (both graduate from UT, the Shelter Manager is a Vet Tech with an advance degree from Auburn - so there is the formal education. We as a shelter would never become "educated by triail and error" our BOD has 2 Vets currently seated and we outstanding relationships with 3 local vets.

3. What type of EXPERIENCE is REQUIRED to be a breeder/rescuer? If none, how is it determined that a person is QUALIFIED to care for Dogs? Do they become EXPERIENCED through trial & Error? We are volunteer based rescue but we have an actual shelter. Every volunteer goes through a 4 hour training (basics) and additional training with their volunteer mentor. Again "trail and error" is not part of our protocol.

4. If questions 2 and 3 cannot be answered in the affirmative, what makes them QUALIFIED to determine what a proper matching would be and what type of household would be appropriate. All of our animals are matched with a family based on the dog/cats temperment. Do we get it wrong sometimes? yes but those times we are always willing to work with the new owner or take the dog back.

5. Why do people & rescuers think it is acceptable or appropriate to approach, question, confront, or criticize those of us who DO NOT WISH TO SPAY/NEUTER, WANT to BREED, ANNNNNNND Tell us how to care for our dogs when we're just strolling along in public. Yes, We do desire helpful advise, WHEN ASKED, but isn't that crossing the line? If we asked you questions 1 and 2 would you be offended? We as adoption counsellors are trainined to educate and would be removed from the team if we ever criticized someone. Are you telling me that a rescue will criticize you when you are out in public, not at their shelter and or event? My guess is that is not the rescue speaking but the person themself. I would fully expect any breeder to interview their potential new owners also.

6. Why can't I choose to BUY a puppy I see in a store window? Don't these puppies deserve to be saved too? Not all of them cost alot of $. In fact, there are plenty that are healthy and MUCH cheaper than a rescuers adoption fee. Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with someone buying a puppy. I do have a problem with someone buying a puppy from someone who is not ethically raising dogs for the right reason (making money alone is not the right reason for me, they need to love the breed). As far as much cheaper, we could debate this all week, most rescue make little or no profit off the adoption of a puppy considering the cost of vetting and feeding the animal. Our adoption costs are $300, that is for a fully vetted, spay/neutered with a life long subscription for a microchip. Find me some who can get a dog from a good reputable breeder at that cost?

7. Who determines when a puppy should be put down, is it a licensed Veterinarian, and DO rescuers ever question their superiors and INTERVENE on that dog's behalf if they disagree? Why is the term "put it down because it is suffering" used sooooooo loosely. Would we put a HUMAN down because they suffer? How many times do they bounce back? Why can't they die on their own? We are a no kill shelter but there have been times when we have had to help a dog passover the rainbow bridge. That decsions is NEVER made lightly and always comes from a Vet and is decided by our staff and board. Volunteers are not even allowed access to these dogs in most cases (thats how sick they are).

8. What makes a "Rescuer" THINK that a SHELTER is EVER a BETTER place for a dog than a home that may have a few slight imperfections but is available. Some of their requirements seem ridiculous to potential adopters. (NOT talking about abuse: ie: fence, stairs, balconies, gate) Why can't a few in-person, @ THEIR facility, welfare checks suffice to see how the new family is adjusting? Well I guess we think the shelter is a better place when you are surrendering your 14 lb dog who should weight 20 lbs, infested with fleas and heartworm positive. As far are our requirements, we do not do home visits, but we do require the basic such as all people living in the house need to be present, all dogs need to be present, current vet records, must be attended to outside and never off leash in an unfence area.

9. Are ALL Rescues overseen by a Licensed Veterinarian? Are there STANDARDIZED rules that are followed by ALL rescue organizations that have been APPROVED by ANIMAL VETERINARIANS, as they are CLEARLY THE ONLY TRUE EXPERTS regarding analyzing, matching, and selecting who should and should not have a dog and for what VALID reasons. I believe I answered this question regarding the rescue where I volunteer. Asking if all shelters is not really relevant, we certainly cannot speak to every shelter in the country.

10. Why is it an ABSOLUTE requirement for rescuers to visit a potential adopters home? Doesn't it prevent MANY adoptions. Wouldn't a dog want to be in ANY loving home rather than in a cage @ a FACILITY or @ a "FOSTER" home later to be shuffled to yet another place. Already answered, we don't. We have a shelter but the rescues I know that do it is because they want to meet the family and usually do not have a facility. As far as the cage, we do not keep our dogs in cages except for a night to sleep and to eat, they have freedome to indoor and outdoors with other dogs for more than 15 hours a day. We have an agility play area and a very quailified team of volunteers who work with the dogs on training (at all levels).
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:18 PM   #8
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Cheryl,
Thank you for telling us about our group.

OP,
I'm confused by your questions here and especially by the mix of rescue/breeder. Did you have a bad experience with one or the other?
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:45 PM   #9
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1. What type of FORMAL MEDICAL EDUCATION do breeders/rescuers have? If none, why are they allowed to care for dogs? Do they become EDUCATED through trial & Error?

I'm not qualified to answer this question as far as a breeder, or a rescuer of dogs for that matter although I have taken in rescued dogs for many years and they always had a forever home with me till their time had come.

I can however speak on behalf of being a rescuer of cats. My husband is a firefighter, and he has brought me, I think about six litters of feral wild kittens, that he has found on the job, abandoned by their mothers. I bottle fed each and every litter and loved them like they were my kids. I learned through experience as we have a very large feral cat population in Southern California , due to people thinking its ok to just dump their pets when they are no longer wanted. I also help the org. That takes care of these colonies of cats by trapping, fixing and releasing them. It's very heart breaking seeing how sick and injured they become just because someone thought they were expendable.


4. If questions 2 and 3 cannot be answered in the affirmative, what makes them QUALIFIED to determine what a proper matching would be and what type of household would be appropriate.

It's extremely important to do home checks to make sure a rescued baby is going to the proper home, so they don't end up abandoned, hurt, sick, homeless, killed injured or injuring somebody themselves. You cannot just go on blind trust, after the time and love you have put into the rescuing of that animal.
You need to make sure that pet. Is going to a secure environment, physically, mentally and financially. I have done home checks on every one of my kittens I have adopted out. One may love children, while another may be terrified of them. They may or may not get along with other animals, there are many things to consider when adopting out a pet to a new home. I always, and I do mean every single time, make sure the kitten is fixed, has all shots and will only be an inside pet, as I would never want them to end up where their parents did. This is only the short version of my answer :-) from seeing all the homeless pets running the streets, I would leave it up to the professionals who do complete health screenings and are selling quality pets to answer for the breeders on this one.

On a side note, the yorkie puppy I have right now, is because I heard of someone on my street trying to sell one for $400 that was very sick. I did give the girl the money just to get him out of her hands, and I immediately rushed him to my vet, where he would have died within a few short hours had I not rescued him from the situation. The money meant nothing to me compared to saving his life. By the time I got to the vet, within 20 mins of getting him, he was pretty much in a hypoglycemic coma, and it took a lot of care, loss of sleep and nurturing to save his life. I don't know where he originally came from because the girl s gone, but I really don't care because at least I saved Gizmos life and I would never regret that.


5. Why do people & rescuers think it is acceptable or appropriate to approach, question, confront, or criticize those of us who DO NOT WISH TO SPAY/NEUTER, WANT to BREED, ANNNNNNND Tell us how to care for our dogs when we're just strolling along in public. Yes, We do desire helpful advise, WHEN ASKED, but isn't that crossing the line? If we asked you questions 1 and 2 would you be offended?

I would never be offended. I will neuter Gizmo when he is six months old to make sure he can never breed. The question would not offend me.

6. Why can't I choose to BUY a puppy I see in a store window? Don't these puppies deserve to be saved too? Not all of them cost alot of $. In fact, there are plenty that are healthy and MUCH cheaper than a rescuers adoption fee.

In Southern California we actually have a law against selling puppies in stores to deter backyard breeding. The reason a puppy from a reputable breed is more expensive is because of all the costs of health screenings and care that has gone into that puppy to make sure it is healthy and well nurtured and socialized . For instance, Gizmo is at the vet again for his third time in 2 weeks, because first he was hypoglycemic and dying, then shots, then deworming and loss of fur that was ripped out from the girl that had him, because she thought it was easier to just rip his fur out with a brush, than to properly unravel all the matting that was on him, and let me tell you, it took me 4 different hour sessions to untangle all the other Matt's that were on him. And who knows what his health will be as an adult because I have no idea what the health of the parent dogs were. Just something to think about if you are thinking about breeding, just the costs involved with proper vet care of the puppies and screenings of both parents for any hereditary genes either the Male or female dogs you have might carry.

7. Who determines when a puppy should be put down, is it a licensed Veterinarian, and DO rescuers ever question their superiors and INTERVENE on that dog's behalf if they disagree? Why is the term "put it down because it is suffering" used sooooooo loosely. Would we put a HUMAN down because they suffer? How many times do they bounce back? Why can't they die on their own?

I absolutely think no animal should suffer to their death. I have put down 2 cats in my life, one was suffering severely from stomach cancer and could eat nothing, and was just lying there unable to move because the cancerous tumor took up her whole stomach, she was a stray wild cat by the way, that I had been feeding outside for 9 years. The other was one of my rescued kittens named Madison, who had thyroid cancer, and from that was going into heart failure and kidney failure. She was from the first litter of babies I raised from 2 days old, and she was 12 yrs old. I never took either one of them lightly, and it's a very hard thing to go through and very hard to forget. I loved them both and that is why I refused to let them suffer a painful death.

8. What makes a "Rescuer" THINK that a SHELTER is EVER a BETTER place for a dog than a home that may have a few slight imperfections but is available. Some of their requirements seem ridiculous to potential adopters. (NOT talking about abuse: ie: fence, stairs, balconies, gate) Why can't a few in-person, @ THEIR facility, welfare checks suffice to see how the new family is adjusting?

A shelter is never a great place, but a lot of homes are not either. Believe me I have checked some pretty bad homes, and turned them down. This is exactly why I would never breed my animals and always have them fixed. There would be no animals in shelters if all people took care of their pets.

9. Are ALL Rescues overseen by a Licensed Veterinarian? Are there STANDARDIZED rules that are followed by ALL rescue organizations that have been APPROVED by ANIMAL VETERINARIANS, as they are CLEARLY THE ONLY TRUE EXPERTS regarding analyzing, matching, and selecting who should and should not have a dog and for what VALID reasons.

I do have an awesome vet, and first thing I do when I take in animals I rescue is to have their health checked. BUT...the vet did not raise them, they don't know the personalities like I so, or who would be the right fit. They only know whether that animal is healthy or not. I on the other hand have bottle fed them, nurtured them, know each personality and what that animal is most comfortable with. I have even had my grand daughter who is seven play with the kittens I have raised, and give them the love of a child, so they would have more options of homes, but some of them no matter what did not like children. It's really important for an animal to fit the right home so it does not end up in a shelter or dumped on the side of the road somewhere.

10. Why is it an ABSOLUTE requirement for rescuers to visit a potential adopters home? Doesn't it prevent MANY adoptions. Wouldn't a dog want to be in ANY loving home rather than in a cage @ a FACILITY or @ a "FOSTER" home later to be shuffled to yet another place.

I think I answered that with my other answers :-).
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:52 PM   #10
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I am not sure the reason for your post but I will say when we rescued Lolita I was never bothered by the questions or the follow ups with our vet, etc. To me it meant they really cared enough about her to want her to go where she would be loved and cared for.
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Old 08-26-2013, 05:54 PM   #11
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My answers are in blue:


You all are in the comfort of your own space and can respond honestly without fear of others judgement of you in public. So please answer these questions honestly, because I like MANY other people, like myself, REALLY DO want to know. There are 10 questions, I tried to narrow it down as best as I can. Pick and choose if you must, and answer those which are most important to you. I am doing this to PROMOTE a discussion on a topic that is very sensitive in hopes that we each get a better understanding of one another's perspective. It is also one in which I truthfully don't understand. Be prepared that my wording of the questions may be considered harsh but it really is what I and people I have spoken to reeeeeeally want to ask in exactly this way, So here goes:

When replying, for ease & understanding, please reference the # of the question you are responding to, Thank you.

Introduction: My husband and I are proud parents to a completely spoiled 16 month old fur baby who's treated as a little bitty HUMAN, in ALL WAYS. She is NOT spayed & will NOT ever be unless PROVEN TO BE ABSOLUTELY MEDICALLY NECESSARY. Yes, we heard about Cancer "allegedly" but don't ALL dogs end up getting it anyway? We've discussed this and she WILL be breed, with another puppy, we obtain, at the appropriate time with the help and under the care of her excellent Veterinarian. No matter how difficult it is, we will keep ALL of her litter babies, as we do not have the heart to seperate them from her. THAT WILL NOT CHANGE.


1. What type of FORMAL MEDICAL EDUCATION do breeders/rescuers have? If none, why are they allowed to care for dogs? Do they become EDUCATED through trial & Error?

There is a difference between breeders and rescuers. Rescuers do NOT breed the dogs they have, breeders do. I don't think that either are required to have medical education, isn't that what we have vets for?

3. What type of EXPERIENCE is REQUIRED to be a breeder/rescuer? If none, how is it determined that a person is QUALIFIED to care for Dogs? Do they become EXPERIENCED through trial & Error?

Again, there is a HUGE difference between breeder and rescuer. You are using these words interchangably when they are completely different people. There is no experience required to be a breeder... That is why we have puppy mills and backyard breeders. These people do not know what is best for the dogs and more often than not produce sickly pups.

Rescuers are often part of an organization. I am a member of a rescue and I have many people on my side who have a LOT of experience with the breed. We also use vets, who have knowledge about dogs.


4. If questions 2 and 3 cannot be answered in the affirmative, what makes them QUALIFIED to determine what a proper matching would be and what type of household would be appropriate.

Rescuers determine appropriate famillies for their dogs through experience. They know that people should have a fenced yard, time to spend with the dog, etc. This is common sense. They also know that they will not place a dog with someone who is going to breed it because that is the reason they are in the rescue business -- because so many people BREED!

Breeders bring these pups into the world and have every right to be picky about where they go.


5. Why do people & rescuers think it is acceptable or appropriate to approach, question, confront, or criticize those of us who DO NOT WISH TO SPAY/NEUTER, WANT to BREED, ANNNNNNND Tell us how to care for our dogs when we're just strolling along in public. Yes, We do desire helpful advise, WHEN ASKED, but isn't that crossing the line? If we asked you questions 1 and 2 would you be offended?

I think people are passionate about what they do and don't want to see more irresponsible breeders bringing pups into this world. As rescuers, we see firsthand the pain and suffering that these pups have to go through and are all about educating people.


6. Why can't I choose to BUY a puppy I see in a store window? Don't these puppies deserve to be saved too? Not all of them cost alot of $. In fact, there are plenty that are healthy and MUCH cheaper than a rescuers adoption fee.

Good luck with those puppies in the window. In the long run, those dogs can cost you more than a puppy from a reputable breeder would cost. There are members on here who have spent more than $10,000 on their pet store puppies.

7. Who determines when a puppy should be put down, is it a licensed Veterinarian, and DO rescuers ever question their superiors and INTERVENE on that dog's behalf if they disagree? Why is the term "put it down because it is suffering" used sooooooo loosely. Would we put a HUMAN down because they suffer? How many times do they bounce back? Why can't they die on their own?

I don't know where this question is coming from... I think owners decide for their own pet, but vets should be responsible for determining that the euthanasia is the best decision. I know that I went with my mother to put down her 17 year old shih-tzu and the vet discussed the different interventions we had done with her to make sure we had exhausted all other avenues before deciding to put her down.

8. What makes a "Rescuer" THINK that a SHELTER is EVER a BETTER place for a dog than a home that may have a few slight imperfections but is available. Some of their requirements seem ridiculous to potential adopters. (NOT talking about abuse: ie: fence, stairs, balconies, gate) Why can't a few in-person, @ THEIR facility, welfare checks suffice to see how the new family is adjusting?

Sometimes the shelter is a better place than a new home. A new home where the dog is going to be used as a money maker or breeder is a great example. It is better that the dog stay in the shelter than be used to produce more dogs that will eventually make their way to the shelter when they are no longer 'cute'.

9. Are ALL Rescues overseen by a Licensed Veterinarian? Are there STANDARDIZED rules that are followed by ALL rescue organizations that have been APPROVED by ANIMAL VETERINARIANS, as they are CLEARLY THE ONLY TRUE EXPERTS regarding analyzing, matching, and selecting who should and should not have a dog and for what VALID reasons.

There is no standardized list of rules for all rescues. When you start a rescue, you make your own rules. Why do you think that rescues don't have this right?

10. Why is it an ABSOLUTE requirement for rescuers to visit a potential adopters home? Doesn't it prevent MANY adoptions. Wouldn't a dog want to be in ANY loving home rather than in a cage @ a FACILITY or @ a "FOSTER" home later to be shuffled to yet another place.

Because they want to see where their pups are going to be placed. Responsible and reputable rescues do home visits. Period.

Many more questions but let's stop here.

Feel free to chime in, maybe you can sway some of us, maybe you cannot, but I think if we all get a better understanding of this topic, IT WOULD BE GREAT!

P.s. - pls excuse any (sp?) & typos,sure they are somewhere here, didn't proofread.

I am sorry that you have such a negative attitude toward rescues, but they are the ones that deal with the sick and neglected animals that no one else wants.

Spend some time in the sick/injured section on this forum and you might change your mind.
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Old 08-27-2013, 04:35 AM   #12
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I would also suggest spending time in the Breeders section...
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:54 AM   #13
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I am not that familiar with dog rescues groups but I have been a yorkie breeder for over 16 years so I will give my opinion on that portion. Here is a good article for you to read:
http://www.pupcentral.com/different_...f_breeders.htm

Anyone can be whatever kind of breeder they want to be. You just need to think long and hard. My recommendation is to be the best you can be. Raising dogs is a serious commitment and not to be taken lightly.

The reason to spay a female is not so much the concern for cancer but the concern for pyometra (uterus infection). As females get older they are more prone to getting pyometra and it can be life threatening. Also with females you have the mood swings they go through after each heat cycle. Having intact males and females in the same household can be very nerve racking.
When you get a lot of dogs together (males and females) you have to be prepared for dog fights if they are not altered (sometimes even if they are altered).

You say if you breed your female you will keep all the puppies. What if she has a big litter? Will you get those pups spayed and neutered when they get older? Think of the nightmare there will be if all those intact dogs are running around if you don't have them altered. Also consider the cost of feeding them, vaccinating them, and providing them vet care as they get older.

As for pet rescues, it is my guess that there are different types of pet rescue groups just as there are different types of breeders. I imagine there are good ones and some that are not as good. To me those pet rescues that tend to the medical needs of the dogs and are very particular about who they place the dogs with are the best in my opinion. Those rescue groups are no different that a reputable breeder that screen prospective buyers for the pups they sell.

There will always be offensive people out there. You cannot judge all people, be it a breeder or a rescuer, by the actions of a few.

I do hope you come back for more discussion. We all have different opinions on things. We can all give you our best advise but in the end it is solely up to you to do whatever you choose.
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:48 PM   #14
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I am not a breeder but do work at a no-kill animal rescue. From your questions it seems you had a bad experience with a rescue. I apologize on their behalf but beg you not to lump all rescues together. Just like finding a good breeder I would research the agency in which you plan on adopting from and if you don't agree with their process go elsewhere.

1. Ideally a good breeder is mentored by an experienced breeder or vet. It depends what position you hold at a rescue. I am a adoption counselor and have had 6+ years working with dogs and am a licensed veterinary technician but most people come in with little or no experience and are taught by the more experienced workers.
3. I don't think anything is required to breed. I have seen many people with no background or training put to dogs together and make puppies. For rescue to work for a qualified rescue I would think you would have some sort of background or training but a lot of it is trial and error- I know where I work there are a lot of 'grey' areas.

4. We try and do what is best for the animal. If someone works 10 hours a day we try and discourage them from a young puppy or if they have a low fence we try and steer them towards breeds less likely to try and escape. The hope is to find a forever home for the dog, not for it to be bounced around time and time again so we have to try and use our knowledge of the dog as well as what the person is looking for and try and make the best match possible. Sometimes people think they want a certain dog because its picture is cute but then when we meet them we mind out that dog is totally opposite of the personality or energy level the person wants, this is not a good match.

5. I only try and educate. If I see an obviously unaltered animal I will suggest low cost spay and neuter just incase cost was the reason they were avoiding it. Approximately 200 animals a week are turned in by owners or as strays to just the Dallas city shelter alone. 200! This is because people do not spay and neuter their pets then have unwanted litters or their pet breaks out of their yard to go mate. Innocent puppies die every day because people let their dog have unwanted babies. It happens every day, so yes we are passionate about it. As animal rescuers we see these dogs that were once supposedly loved then discarded.
6. You can do what you want, it is a free country. But those dogs in store windows are from puppy mills and buying them is supporting the continued profit these mills make. Yes they need homes too, but what they need more is to not be bred any longer.

7. Usually it is a vet along with a few medical staff that makes the call to euthanize. If anyone disagrees they are welcome to bring an argument to the vet. It is not something taken lightly and where I work we try everything else first. I am glad the animals don't have to suffer like some humans do. If you saw a puppy beaten with obvious broken bones, then it was lit on fire so it had 3rd degree burns all over its body you would rather see it slowly and agonizingly fade away rather than peacefully being put to sleep? The animals we put to sleep are in pain, and have no hope of making a recovery.

8. Personally I think almost any home is better than the shelter. We do not do home checks but like to hear how the pet is doing. Personally I think home checks are a little invasive especially if you already own happy healthy pets but each organization has their rules and if I wanted a dog from a place that required home visits then that is the price I would have to pay for adopting that particular animal. No one forces you to adopt an animal that would require such invasive screenings. Most city shelters only ask for a valid drivers license and NOTHING more.
9. I am not sure if ALL rescues have a vet overseeing them. I would assume they would need a vet associated with them as animals need vet care.

10. Again not all rescues require this. If you do not agree with a rescues policy on home visits then you should look into other rescues. I would assume it does stop the adoption of some animals but I am sure the rescue is just trying to do what it thinks is best.


As for what you plan to do with your dog, again it is a free country and you can do what you want but understand no reputable rescue would give a dog to someone that planned to breed. These rescue dogs have been through enough, pregnancy is hard on the dog, it could even kill them. If everyone would stop letting their dog have 'just one litter' we might not have the 3-4 million animals euthanized every year in this country that we do.
Just my 2 cents. Hope it works out for you.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:26 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=Peachesmommy;4304125]Y

When replying, for ease & understanding, please reference the # of the question you are responding to, Thank you.ittle bitty HUMAN, in ALL WAYS. She is NOT spayed & will NOT ever be unless PROVEN TO BE ABSOLUTELY MEDICALLY NECESSARY. Yes, we heard about Cancer "allegedly" but don't ALL dogs end up getting it anyway? We've discussed this and she WILL be breed, with another puppy, we obtain, at the appropriate time with the help and under the care of her excellent Veterinarian. No matter how difficult it is, we will keep ALL of her litter babies, as we do not have the heart to seperate them from her. THAT WILL NOT CHANGE.

In unspayed females cancer yes can happen, but your overweening concern should be pyrometra which can kill in 24 hours unless recognized early for the medical emergency it is, and brought to the vet.

In terms of what should be tested by both breeding dogs I attach this link
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/diet-nutrition-health-library/267363-yorkie-health-concerns-including-top-10-list.html#post4303283

As you will note in this list there are a few things no general vet is qualified to test for.




1. What type of FORMAL MEDICAL EDUCATION do breeders/rescuers have? If none, why are they allowed to care for dogs? Do they become EDUCATED through trial & Error?

Breeders the good ones go through an apprenticeship like program. We do study genetics, and do try to keep current on a multitude of topics relating to breeding and also our breed that we do breed. Many of us belong to our National Breed Clubs which outline the responsibilities of breeder members.
3. What type of EXPERIENCE is REQUIRED to be a breeder/rescuer? If none, how is it determined that a person is QUALIFIED to care for Dogs? Do they become EXPERIENCED through trial & Error?

4. If questions 2 and 3 cannot be answered in the affirmative, what makes them QUALIFIED to determine what a proper matching would be and what type of household would be appropriate.

5. Why do people & rescuers think it is acceptable or appropriate to approach, question, confront, or criticize those of us who DO NOT WISH TO SPAY/NEUTER, WANT to BREED, ANNNNNNND Tell us how to care for our dogs when we're just strolling along in public. Yes, We do desire helpful advise, WHEN ASKED, but isn't that crossing the line? If we asked you questions 1 and 2 would you be offended?

Not me, I stand by my background of over 30 years and my also extensive list of seminars etc that I continue to educate myself as I grow as a breeder.
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