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Old 03-09-2005, 02:14 PM   #1
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Crazy Question

this is only a "what if" i am almost 100% sure it would never happen but i am curious as to the outcome since i have heard several different things......my best friend bought nala's brother and they play together, i plan on getting nala spayed as soon as she's old enough but what if she came into heat before being spayed and her and her brother mated??? what would the puppies be like? i am only curious b/c i have heard people say oh god they would be retarted etc. then there are some that say they would be fine. trust me i am not going to breed her with any dog!!!! i have no knowledge of breeding so i wouldn't even try to attempt it. do any breeders on here no anything about that?
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:47 PM   #2
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Star hmmm

hya well dunno if this is any use but i had 2 rabbits once brother and sister,(but i thought they were brother and brother) and they were in the same hutch and one day i noticed the black/white bunny getting fat (thought i was overfeeding) and the albino being very protective of me touching the other one-

then came the ickkle bunnies

agggghhhhhh
i thought they were brothers

i know its probly different to our little puppy pals but they didnt seem retarded and they had all of the correct body parts!

i know it might not answer ur question but just thought id share my story!

its probly not recommended as they cud have lots of problems mentally and physically!




love vikki and rambo
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:52 PM   #3
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that would be called "inbreeding" if i am not mistaken. Their bloodlines are the same so it takes a lot of knowledge to make it work...you have to know their genetics well!! Some breeders from many different breeds use this "method" (inbreeding and line breeding) but the same way you can have good results, there is also a big chance of problems...but i donnou too much about it. Lets wait and see what our breeders and more experienced friends have to say
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Old 03-10-2005, 06:20 AM   #4
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i knew it was inbreeding but wasn't sure of the effects. i can't stress enough that i am in no way planning to do this! i have to take nala to the vet friday so i may ask them. i am really curious as to what the breeders in here will have to say.
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Old 03-10-2005, 07:54 AM   #5
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Default inbreeding/crossbreeding/outcrossing

All successful breeders use the system of linebreeding and inbreeding; the results can be both good and bad. A serious program is when the breeder is trying to keep and ameliorate the qualities and characteristics of its breed, for generations.

LINEBREEDING is " mating animals who are closely related to the same ancestor but are little if at all, related to each other through any other ancestors" (L.C Brackett).

INBREEDING is a much closer cross between the "mating pair" than is linebreeding: son to mother, father to daughter, brother to sister, half-brother to half-sister, brother to sister...

Some breeders would consider inbreeding, others linebreeding when crossing a dog to a half-brother or a half-sister to one of the parents. It is sometimes very difficult to give the perfect definition.

The purpose of both linebreeding and inbreeding is to bring improvement more rapidly and narrow the pedigree to a few closely related lines of descent. "This purifies the pedigree rapidly and enables a breeder to control, to some degrees, all characteristics" (L.C Brackett). It reduces variability.

It is easier to predict the result of a breeding by linebreeding than to expect results that have no genetic reasons. If the selection of the ancestors have been good, it can be expected almost no surprise.

Judicious linebreedings have shown, in all breeds, an important and real improvement. The quickest and most certain way to produce superior dogs is by careful linebreeding, especially with a breed without genetic disease as is the Sloughi.

However, there is a big danger in this system of breeding, if you consider only the pedigrees, without considering the physical compensation, you surely will have dogs with notable faults. A pedigree is a guarantee of bloodlines and unfortunately many beginners will consider only pedigrees, especially if it contains winners. They will breed without considering also the respective faults and qualities of the dogs they want to mate. Consanguinity will concentrate the qualities and the faults. Fortunately many serious breeders will study the pedigrees very carefully; will study the family of the dogs they want to mate (the qualities, the faults, the temperament, the results also in show, racing etc...) before linebreeding, to fix a type in their breeding program: the closest possible to the breed standard.

A fault not apparent can come out in a first or second generation whereas in non-consanguinity the fault will appear later and so, will take much longer time to be eliminated.

Inbreeding is linebreeding in its limits. The advantages and disadvantages of linebreeding is at the highest degree. This system of breeding is to secure at its maximum all the qualities of the sire for example (if the sire breeds his daughter). It is again the reason why it is terribly important to study perfectly the ancestors of the sire (in this example), their qualities and faults. Those faults must not appear in the daughter or in her pedigree because the blood of her sire will be intensified in their puppies by linebreeding the faults of the sire and the dam. It is imperative to choose a sire who has the absolute quality opposite to the fault to be eliminated.

Not only the conformation but also the temperament of the two dogs being mated by linebreeding or inbreeding, must be taken in consideration very seriously with the objective to secure and preserve the qualities only...

When superior animals are used, inbreeding is the most powerful way to perpetuate their qualities and to influence the future of a breeding program.

"Inbreeding is not so much a matter of originating excellence as of holding and making the greatest use of it when it appears" (L.C Brackett).

Linebreed or inbreed only superior individuals. A linebred or inbred dog is a much stronger reproducer than a dog who has an outcross breeding.

Inbreeding can be a disaster if practiced by a breeder beginning with the wrong stock, or not knowing perfectly its breed or not knowing what is a very good individual. In this case, anyway, he should not be a breeder...

" It is known universally that any characteristics can be bred up or down, strengthened or weakened by inbreeding". Severe selection is the key to a successful linebreeding or inbreeding; never forget that "physical compensation" is the rule.

When a breeder, regularly, produces litters with puppies of too much variance in type, he needs to consider linebreeding. He will have the possibility to see what are the traits (dominant and recessive) in his dogs. It is a risk, of course, but it is the only way for him to progress and try to produce homogeneous litters.

Linebreeding and inbreeding are not a way to bring new things but is a way to consolidate the best traits.

OUTCROSSING is not a blood-related connection. After some generations of linebreeding and inbreeding, it is time to outcross. This represents also a danger for a breeder without experience.

L.C Brackett writes "after an outcross has been made, a breeder should then breed right back into the original strain. This is the only safe procedure after the purpose of the outcross has been achieved". He explains: "a strain is a variety within a variety of animals", obtained after successful linebreedings and inbreedings in a long and serious breeding program.

It is almost impossible to explain when it is time to outcross. We think that after too many generations of linebreeding, it is a risk to produce smaller puppies and also sometimes puppies with a non-desirable temperament (too timid or too strong...). Not all breeders agree on that but several have experienced the problem.

When a breeder outcrosses, he can loose the type he has worked on for a long time. He needs to introduce a new blood, only if the dog used can bring something needed in his program and if he linebred and/or inbred already several times. The breeder needs to know perfectly the ancestors of this dog and what they can bring to him. Phenotype is what we see and genotype is the genes the dog carries and will produce. In our opinion, it is just as dangerous to outcross, linebreed or inbreed when used by a non-experienced breeder.

It is the reason why the breeder must go back, after an outcross, into his established line, to perpetuate the "good" brought by the outcross. Of course it is time to use an outcross blood when a breeder did not produce what he was expecting and when he can have access to a superior dog or a very rare and proven pedigree which is not yet in his program. This system can bring qualities he needs, or correct a fault he has not been able to eliminate. Some people say that outcross can bring vigor, but linebreeding, when very carefully planned, has the same result. The new blood can also bring undesirable traits. The breeder will have to hold the
qualities he has obtained with the new blood by returning to the linebreeding with the progeny and do the same to eliminate the bad traits brought by the outcross.

The general public believes that inbreeding produces bad temperament, lack of vigor and fertility, and forgets that we can see the same problems in all other systems of breeding... Of course, consanguinity is full of dangers, but it is a great tool when done by a careful breeder who knows the qualities and the faults of his dogs and their ancestors. He must be able to recognize what is a sound conformation and temperament and needs to be knowledgeable in the area of genetics.
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Old 03-10-2005, 08:15 AM   #6
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I am curious as to why y'all just don't keep an eagle eye on both dogs but especially the female. It is not a situation where you look at her vulva one day and say "OMG, look. She is ready to breed! What must I do!"..It takes several days for the female to bleed, ovulate and go into a standing heat. Check your girl EVERY day-get lots of belly bands for the male and panties for the female. BUT, KEEP THEM SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER! and supervise them if they have to be in the same area. How old are they? If they are 6 months many, if not most, vets will alter them. Since they do not live in the same home, there should be no reason to suspect that she would get pregnant if they are not together.
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Old 03-10-2005, 08:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whispersmom2
I am curious as to why y'all just don't keep an eagle eye on both dogs but especially the female. It is not a situation where you look at her vulva one day and say "OMG, look. She is ready to breed! What must I do!"..It takes several days for the female to bleed, ovulate and go into a standing heat. Check your girl EVERY day-get lots of belly bands for the male and panties for the female. BUT, KEEP THEM SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER! and supervise them if they have to be in the same area. How old are they? If they are 6 months many, if not most, vets will alter them. Since they do not live in the same home, there should be no reason to suspect that she would get pregnant if they are not together.
i don't suspect anything thats why i said "WHAT IF" i know that it would be quite obvious if she was in heat. nala already has a day set to get spayed i was only making a statement b/c i was curious i don't know anything about bloodlines breeding etc so i wanted to get an answer from a breeder that knew rather than the "well i heard" answers i got from people i knew
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Old 03-10-2005, 08:34 AM   #8
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Thumbs up thank you feminvstr

thanks for the info. it answered my question i guess i just wondered if it was like the "stories" you hear about human inbreeding, that may sound silly but like i said i know nothing about breeding.
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